| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
OK, I've been having issues with my Honeywell programmable thermostat. I have a heat pump with electric backup heat and have had the system checked repeatedly by a local HVAC company, and am told my freon levels and overall condition are excellent, and any issues I have may be due to my thermostat. I'm OK with that...I mean, I'd rather have things WORK, but if something is going to go south, it might as well be a piece that I can DIY replace. I'm looking at smart thermostats, right now mainly the Ecobee3. Anyone have experience with these units? Anyone have suggestions for proper placement? Single zone home, 2 story, currently my thermostat is in the upper foyer at the top of the stairs, around a corner (about 8' away) from the return duct. No sun, interior wall, no supply ducts in the foyer, basically centralized in the home but on the upper level. I'm not "un"happy with placement but if I'm going to be poking around anyway, now would be the time to move it. Thoughts? Ideas? | ||
| Froggy |
I have been looking into smart thermostats too as of late, it is a piece of tech that I haven't adopted yet. I've heard great things about the HolHom, which can also monitor your entire houses power consumption. http://holhom.com/twit Also check your power company, many of them have promos to get free smart thermostats and low energy bulbs and other such devices to save power. As for moving your thermostat, I know nothing about what is involved with that. | ||
| Ourdee |
I am guessing that the thermostat is located correctly for heating. I would ask a good HVAC tech. if that spot is ideal for cooling control in the summer. And if not would it be smart to have two thermostats (one for winter upstairs and one for cooling downstairs with the ability to select one or the other). Just my uneducated thought. | ||
| Jrad012x |
I have the most recent edition of the Ecobee3 with HomeKit and it has been working flawlessly for me. This is my third "smart" thermostat. I had the Nest and Honeywell Lyric prior to this one and I will say flat out, this is the best one for me so far. The interface is easy to understand and if you want to access it remotely, the phone app and website interface looks identical to the thermostat interface which makes it easy to use. Possibilities with smart thermostats are endless (geofencing, IFTTT, scenes, automatic learning your schedule...etc) but pricey! Both Ecobee3 and Nest offer plenty of metrics (data, graphs, savings, comparison against neighbors..etc) if that is your thing. As for you, like others said, I would look into the local power company for a deal first. With your situation with location of your thermostat, Ecobee with remote thermostat/occupancy sensor(s) or Nest with their remote smoke detector/thermostat sensor may be the best bet unless you relocate your current thermostat. I am not going to lie, they do save money if you do not program the standard thermostat efficiently but this is a nice to have item for most users. If you want more details about Ecobee3 or the other version I have owned, let me know. -Jason (Message edited by jrad012x on November 21, 2015) (Message edited by jrad012x on November 21, 2015) | ||
| Ourdee |
I just turned the fan on to cool down. Moving snow bites. We got some today. Heavy stuff. I use a simple seven day programmable unit on a 60k BTU gas furnace from the 70s with some small tweaks over the last 10 years. Probably moving in a year so not worth changing. Fire box is good and carbon monoxide sensors current. Safety first. Almost lost the family at the last house. HVAC tech bypassed stuff while I was at work to keep furnace running. It had a hole in the firebox. I came home and smelled it. Drug the family outside. They were asleep and for some reason I didn't work over that night like I always did. Tracey can't even be in a room with a propane heater now without getting ill. I like wood heat. The old house was set up with wood heat but I hadn't used the propane furnace in two and a half years and the propane company decided we needed to pay rent on their tank that had been sitting full in my yard all that time. So, we were going to use the fuel and tell them to come get the tank. Note to self: If the furnace hasn't been ran in a while, Scope the firebox yourself prior to calling a HVAC tech. to check it out. I have noticed some extra comfort by keeping the fan in the furnace running all the time. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
If you're running just one thermostat, for best efficiency, you normally want it close to (or even at/inside) the return air grille. The reason being it will then control the compressor off the mixed air from all areas coming back to the unit. Tweak the setpoint to be comfortable in the area you spend the most time. What Ourdee said about high for heating and person level for cooling is pretty normal, hot air rises, cool air sinks. If you've got particularly high ceilings you can get some funny stratification effects, and it may take a while to heat or cool the lowest areas while the upper level is boiling or freezing respectively. Is this the case? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Well, I went with the Ecobee3... Reasons I wondered about the placement was because there are mixed responses. re: the return, you don't want to be so close that wind-chill effect changes the reading. But the more research I did, the more I like the Ecobee because of the remote sensor. I have it in my living room (where, as its name suggests, I do most of my living) and the Ecobee "averages" the temp based on occupancy (the thermostat and the remote use not only temp, but also motion sensors). Makes the placement a moot point. I'm also loving the scheduler, and the UI. This interface is...slick. Intuitive. And on a PC, it's VERY informative! Once I have it installed for 30 days it'll have enough data points to start giving me home efficiency reports, suggestions, and ideas. It's already charting my usage, but right now it's just pretty graphs since there isn't enough data for more yet. The only "glitch" I ran into on installation was in the settings. It asked "is the tx/v energized on heat or cool". Um.... Cool is default. It seemed to work OK that way, but I toggled it just for kicks and all of a sudden I had a/c. So, I toggled it back. I wish the instructions had a note in there "cool is typical"... The only other little nitpick I have is, the home screen shows "heat" or "cool" (flame or snowflake), but you have to go to a quick-change screen to see what stage of heat is being used (I have a 2 stage heat pump with electric aux heat). i'm trying to program it for as little aux/electric as possible...I'll keep fiddling but I would presume its software will factor that into its efficiency suggestions once I have enough data points. And the iPhone app is pretty cool...it literally IS the thermostat display, on my phone. Pricey...but so far I'm tickled pink. | ||
| Hootowl |
A "living room" is a hold over from when homes had parlors prior to the inception of the death industry. | ||
| Ratbuell |
So now the fun starts. I am trying to figure out the correct programming. It lets me set the minimum outdoor temp to use the heat pump compressor, and the maximum outdoor temp to use the electric aux heat. Theory on the minimum HP temp is efficiency - how cold does it have to get for the HP to not be able to keep up. Theory on aux heat is keeping it off as much as possible because its inherently less efficient. There are charts and graphs about efficiency and stuff- are they available for a given system? Is there a "rating" somewhere on the system that I can base these charts on? Or is it a matter of trial and error in cold weather where it starts getting cold inside and I decide "yep, that's too cold for the HP"? And, efficiency aside, is there any physical danger to the equipment if I run it in "too cold" temps? Or is the loss of efficiency the cue that it's getting too cold for the system to be running? | ||
| Ourdee |
If the heat pump is old, it will be limited. If it is the newest type, they work all the way to twenty below zero. It will depend on your installed equipment. Heat pump manufacturer or dealer should be able to tell you the limits. I have read that the latest heat pumps heat cheaper than oil. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Talking to the folks I bought the house from, the HP was only a couple years old when I bought the house, putting it around 7-8 years old now. Decoding specs, it's a 48,000 btuh air handler (indoors) and a 42,000 btuh outdoor compressor unit. I have to dig into the unit to find out what kW backup heat I have. With my "dumb" thermostat it never had an issue keeping up. Now that I have access to these parameters though, I want to optimize. Keep the aux off as long as possible without damaging the HP. For all I know, this may be part of the ecobee's data tracking...but that's a month away 😕 | ||
| Sifo |
My mom has had a few houses with ground water heat pumps. She was taught that it's typically more efficient to not set the heat back at night simply because when it has to heat up in the AM, it will wind up using the electric back up heat and cost more than keeping a steady temp. The exception to this was when they had a thermostat that could kick it up one degree at a time over a matter of hours. I'm not sure how that may relate to your new smart thermostat, but if you try to raise the temperature fast, it's probably going to be with the back up heater. Does the new thermostat keep track of when it's kicking in the backup heater? That would be key info to know regarding efficiency. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I've locked out the aux heat at the moment. The thermostat will not let it come on if the exterior temp is above 25F. That's one of the set points I'm trying to dial in. The house warmed up this morning - 27 ambient, night sleep setting of 60, wake setting 67. It did warm up...but in true HP style it took a while. Which I'm fine with as long as it's not damaging anything. I need to dig more into the settings - i believe there's a "compressor runtime till aux" setting, meaning if the comp runs for 2hr and it's still not up to temp, it'll turn on aux. ideally though, I want to keep aux off until absolutely necessary. I'm fine with "slow". And I can tailor my timing and schedule temps to make that more palatable. Main concern is not breaking stuff because I set it wrong. (Message edited by Ratbuell on November 23, 2015) | ||
| Sifo |
I would think that they are rated for continuous use. I don't think you are going to break anything doing that. I would think a call to the manufacturer would get you a quick answer though. I'm not sure if my mom's system can lock out the aux heat like that or not. I've never read the manual though. In my experience, getting the attic insulation up to a high spec helps a lot. Right now is the perfect time of year do do that work too. Easy DIY project for an afternoon with a quick payback. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Well just the last couple days have been enlightening. My schedule: 5am wake, 67 degree setting. 8am leave, 64 degree setting. 6pm home, 71 degree. 11pm sleep, 64 degrees. Ambient has been low 40s days, hi 20s nights. It hits the 67 target at 630 am. Shuts off. House holds heat and house temp drops to 64 right at 6. Just in time for the HP to kick on for 71. NO runtime all day long. Overnight, it drops to 64 about 4am so it maintains for an hour then ramps up for the 67 part. No problem keeping up so far. The aux lockout is, apparently, a function of the thermostat. I had a Honeywell before this - no user interface to set the lockouts like the ecobee has. I'm guessing the software is always there, this is just the first time I've been able to interact with it. | ||
| Ratbuell |
so here's a "feature" that's caused problems with my heat pump for a couple seasons now. For three thermostats. Although, now with the ecobee, I can at least download and print out history charts  (and, this has happened on heat - winter - and cool - summer - alike) Morning? Compressor works fine, makes heat in winter and cold in summer, as called for by the thermostat setting. My house is snug. Yesterday, for example - 67 indoors when I went to work, and a high exterior temp of 42 all day. It lost less than a degree per hour inside. Because of my temp settings...it never tried to kick on the compressor because it wasn't called for in my vacant period. Come "home" time, when the programmed temp goes up...the thermostat shows stage 1 and stage 2 compressor cycles on...but the temp kept dropping indoors. Get home, no compressor running. Turned off the breakers for indoor unit and outdoor unit...let sit for 2 min...turned on...system works fine again. Runs all night as designed. Temp ramps down for sleep period as called for. Ramps up for wake period. Then..once again during the day...it ramps down and with no programming calling for more temp, it stays dormant. Programming calls for more temp for "home" setting...thermostat shows stage 1 and stage 2 compressor being called on...but compressor isn't running. Again. Reset breakers, system is working as designed. Again. Grrrrrr. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Did this happen with the previous thermostat? | ||
| Robertl |
I read that the ecobee3 requires a "C wire" for proper power and to operate correctly. Good write up and review here: http://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/09/how-to-in stall-an-ecobee3-smart-thermostat/ I tried a programmable thermostat I had in an apartment once and it behaved very weird so I just put the original back on since we weren't staying there long. I've read a lot of people having to run a new "C wire" for any of the newer thermostats but all depends on the unit. Thermostat placement is best next to or near the return air intake so it can monitor air temp coming back into the system from the house. Personally I don't like the placement of mine either because it is right by the front door. It is so sensitive that my wife had a fan blowing on her while on the exercise bike and it threw the thermostat off by 4 degrees! 2 story with a single system, depending on sq footage and area of the country, may benefit from a zoned system but those are significantly higher in cost. It uses a valve in the ducts to redirect hot/cold where needed. We have a new heat pump with electric strip backup so will be interesting to see how well it works this winter in comparison to the old heat pump. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Graham asked THE most important question. Every day perfectly good thermostats are replaced because they are blamed for problems caused by other system ills. Graham is a controls system professional. He is trying to help. | ||
| Jrad012x |
I am not that savvy with HVAC systems so I cannot help you with your situation. I have a simple HVAC unit and had no issues with the Ecobee3 but did with the Lyric and Nest thermostats which made me nuts and went back to my old school thermostat that simply just worked. Ended up with the Ecobee3 after doing some research and the excellent reviews. I would give Ecobee customer care a call. I had to once for something odd and they were extremely friendly and willing to help. You paid a lot for a "smart" thermostat that is supposed to be simple to setup and easy to use. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Yes, it did this with two prior thermostats. A contractor said I had a bad tx/v valve and replaced it. That was this spring. Problem still exists. for some reason, sometimes, even though the thermostat is calling for compressor...it simply doesn't turn on. When I turn the breakers off/on (resetting/rebooting whatever "brain" the heat pump has), it listens to the thermostat again. For about a day, then I have to reset again. | ||
| Fast1075 |
OK, so the outdoor unit goes into a lock-out, and can be reset by cycling the power. Relevant questions: Does it act up in both modes (heat and cool) or only in the cool or heat mode? The TXV that was replaced, was it the one in the indoor unit, or outdoor unit? What are the model numbers of the indoor and outdoor units. Are all the vents in the house open? What kind of air filter do you use, and what size is it? When you find the outdoor unit not running, do you hear any humming noises coming from it, or is it stone cold and quiet? It COULD be something as simple as a worn out contactor that sometimes does not make the circuit. If it is tripping on a safety and locking out, something is causing the problem, and needs to be properly identified and corrected, hopefully before it causes serious (read "expensive") damage to the equipment. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Now that I have the ability to lock out the aux heat circuit, I'm finding it's on both heat and cool. I had thought it was just on cool...but turns out my aux heat was kicking on ($$) so I never noticed it in cold weather before. Indoor valve was replaced. Armstrong Air units. Indoor is BCS2M48V00NA1P-1. Outdoor is 4SHP14LE142P-1. Most vents. I keep my bedroom closed in winter because I like a colder sleep room. Living room, dining room, kitchen, guest rooms, bathrooms, and basement are all open. Return filter is 20x25x1, Filtrete 1200, changed every 3 months (only about 6 weeks old currently). Stone dead, like the system is off. Originally the guy said it was a safety in the indoor tx/v that was tripping it. That actually got it working fine for a/c this summer (that repair was this past spring). Could it be (is there) an outdoor valve that's also failed, and is now causing heat issues? My thought process was a trouble code somewhere (wish I knew how to pull codes...), or a voltage buildup somewhere on a control line. But...I'm applying automotive troubleshooting experience to an HVAC system so it's probably not worth much lol. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I'll look up the equipment for you. Armstrong is a division of Lennox. At work I have access to all the needed info on the system. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Awesome. I've found install and owners docs online but haven't been able to find any schematics or servicing docs. Just the normal usage (consumer level) and spec sheets (ratings, etc). Nearly helpful...but not quite | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
A few thoughts, I might be on the wrong track though... 1. The unit runs okay overnight and then brings up the temperature okay in the morning. When it gets that extra load in the morning from the higher morning setpoint, is the outdoor unit freezing up and tripping out after a while? 2. Is the defrost control playing up? Could be starting to ice up and when it goes back to daytime setpoint it decides to go into defrost, and something trips then? I found the Armstrong install guide for the outdoor unit and it has its own defrost controller onboard. There are a couple of diagnostic LEDs which might tell you something. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I will check for the defrost module, thanks. Nothing is freezing (not visually anyway) and freon checked out fine after the valve install (they did a full charge then). But if the unit is gone wonky.... | ||
| Fast1075 |
The defrost board acts as a safety to shut down the unit in case of a pressure fault. If the low pressure or high pressure switches trip five times, the unit goes into a lockout. The next time the unit trips, DO NOT turn off the breakers. Remove the electrical cover on the outdoor unit. <carefully> There is a circuit board there. On the board are a Green LED, and a Red LED. Observe the state of the two LEDs. A: Green LED off, Red LED on: Low pressure fault. B: Green LED on, Red LED off: High pressure fault. If you check it while the unit is not tripped. and find the red LED flashing slowly, it has seen a low pressure fault, but not a total of five yet. If the green LED is flashing slowly, it has seen a high pressure fault, but not a total of five yet. Under normal conditions, BOTH LEDS flash slowly, simultaneously. (Message edited by fast1075 on November 30, 2015) (Message edited by fast1075 on November 30, 2015) (Message edited by fast1075 on November 30, 2015) | ||
| Ratbuell |
Awesome. Now that I know where to look I can check it out!! Guessing there's just "an" access point on it and I won't have to dig too far? The 5 trip bit makes sense, could explain why it'll work for a while then randomly quit. Might not be so random. Is there a similar setup on the indoor unit? | ||
| Ratbuell |
now this is stupid... Damn system works perfectly all week, locked on "hold" on a single temperature 24/7. Change it yesterday to a schedule (and a mild one at that): 71 daytime, 68 nighttime. Wake up this morning, 64 in the house. Fan blowing. No heat. Go pull the cover outside, green LED - high pressure fault. Reset the breaker for the outside unit...no change (yet). I'll wait another 5 minutes and reset BOTH breakers (indoor and outdoor) to see if that does it. I'm suspecting a control board fault somewhere, since it works PERFECTLY locked on a temp, but soon as a schedule comes into play it tosses a code. It always acted up on a schedule before, worked fine locked before...but now I have the tracking graphs from the ecboee and the knowledge where to look for fault indicators |
