| Author | Message | ||
     Fresnobuell |
The Helicon is by far the best thing on the 1125. What a great motor. | ||
| Mackja |
A lot of club racers are flogging the hell out of the stock motor, and no issues that I have heard about. Ken Hill, Pat Mooney, Chaz Hern, etc, all real fast guys, no engine problems. I bounce my 1125 off the rev limiter often and it also has held up great, 24000 miles does not use any oil, still laying down 136 RWHP on the Dyno. this is a really good engine. | ||
| Buelliedan |
if you own an EBR 1190 I have not seen any issues with revving it up to redline but I would advise folks to not downshift at high rpms. Engine braking is very hard on these engines and the ti valves have been known to break on harsh downshifts causing massive engine failures as seen at Isle of Mann. Just an FYI: The WSBK bikes were running 1190RS race engines NOT 1190RX/SX engines. There is a difference. (Message edited by buelliedan on June 19, 2015) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I have about the same miles and my motor uses zero oil as well. | ||
| Steveford |
For those who picked up EBR, was there any mention by EBR about becoming a Hero dealer at a later date? | ||
| Henshao |
Here were my musings on the piston speeds of an 1190, back when it mattered. EBR 1190 Bore x Stroke is 106 x 67.5 mm. If we accept the maximum (mean) piston speed that can be maintained as around 25m/s then that would be reached at approximately 11112rpm with a 67.5mm stroke. Stock bike revs to 10500rpm. Dyno tests for the 1190 gave peak torque as 87ft/lbs at the wheel so if the 1190 could carry that to 11112rpm it would produce 184 wheel horsepower. Somehow somewhere it is claimed they found another 20 wheel hp (205hp) so that puts them at an actual rear wheel torque of 96.8ft/lbs assuming 11112rpm redline (in reality EBR could be a little beyond 25m/s for piston speed but not too far) Making a bunch of assumptions but it is clear that even in stock form these bikes are spinning almost as high as they can. I don't think the limiting factor is necessarily valve springs considering the piston speeds here. Then again we saw top end failures in previous races didn't we? Would certainly seem to imply that they have settled for a certain target RPM that won't cause bottom end failures and now are trying to keep the top end happy. But I'm no engineer. ---------------------------- 12500 rpm with 67.5mm stroke nets 28.125m/s mean piston speed, Formula 1 territory, and a 12500rpm redline making 205 wheel horsepower brings estimated torque back down to the stock 1190 cycleworld dyno result of 86-87ftlbs. Implying that these machines are breathing about as well as they conceivably can even in stock form and that the race bikes can simply hold their gears a little longer before shifting, also presumably make their peak torque at much higher rpm due to cam profile. As far as their breathing ability in stock form it is not that far of stretch, Buell designs for a long long time have emphasized airbox harmonics and I have no reason to believe they would hold back on the airbox of a stock bike for the sole purpose of a race bike being superior. Even their intake valve pattern supposedly induces a swirl effect in the cylinder head so I doubt there is much porting left to be done once the heads are on the bike. For reference Ducati Panigale 1199 Bore x Stroke is 112 mm × 60.8 mm as compared to EBR 1190 Bore x Stroke 106 x 67.5 mm. So even as oversquare as the 1190 is the Panigale is more extreme and I don't doubt it can spin to 13k in race trim as stated above. In fact if the Ducati's mean piston speed is as high as the EBR's at 28.125m/s it would put redline at 13877rpm with the 60.8mm stroke. Assuming the Panigale carried the 85ft/lbs of torque it achieved in the same test the EBR underwent via cycleworld, to that hypothetical redline of 13877rpm, it would achieve about 224.5hp. In reality the race spec Panigale probably breathes a little better and makes a little more torque than the street model. Again making a gajillion assumptions, I'm no engineer | ||
| Henshao |
Classax's response: The soft limiter on the street bikes kick in at 11,500 rpm and the race bikes can apparently spin to 12.5K(based on statements by Geoff May to Cycle World) where as the Panigale is just hitting peak power at 11.5 and ready to spin to near 13K in stock trim. Who know what its does in race trim. The 4's are spinning closer to 14.5 to 15k to get 230 or so HP, so just based on the math they shouldn't even be able to run anywhere near 107% of the pace.... but miraculously they are. Based on the math they should be down about 50hp and 35-48kmph, but instead they are down 30hp and 20kmph, that's one HECK of an engineering trick. I'm no engineer either but to my mechanical mind, they really have optimized this type of engine to the beyond what one would expect. | ||
| Buelliedan |
"For those who picked up EBR, was there any mention by EBR about becoming a Hero dealer at a later date?" Yes. if we wanted to sell hero bikes it was going to be available to us but no mandatory. | ||
| Steveford |
That puts paid to rest the bit about EBR not doing anything to set up a distribution network for Hero. | ||
| Glitch |
Why would they need EBR to set up a dealer network? Couldn't they just start/build one? They have the bikes. They'd get tax breaks and incentives for creating jobs. I think they were more interested in the engineering and credibility that Mr Buell had to offer than doing anything here. They wanted a "Honda Killer" and as soon as they thought they had that in the bag, they took their ball and headed home. Little did they know the engineering was not near complete enough for their engineers to complete, nor did they understand that once word got out, there were no EBR engineers that wanted to "stay on"... ...and that's why I think HERO is all butthurt. Also if the president/owner/whatever feels he is in a class higher than Erik's then he wouldn't have any problem pulling rug out from under Erik. The whole Caste system and all. Remember this is coming from a brain damaged individual... | ||
| Discochris |
In all honesty, other than a vanity thing, why would EBR dump so much money into WSB while clearly struggling to get a decent dealer network and actually sell bikes? What is the interest in WSB in the US? A hundred thousand hardcore fans, if that? The whole race on Sunday, sell on Monday is a tired old cliche. It may have held weight back in the day when NASCAR was running basically stock machines, but it's simply not true today, particularly in a race series that has marginal interest in the US, the market where EBR was building their bikes and most likely to sell them. Whatever was spent on race bikes and teams would have been far better spent developing affordable bikes and creating a network for selling them. | ||
| Henshao |
It's easy to criticize someone's long term strategy after only 2 years. If EBR could do 20 million dollars worth of engineering work then they could go without selling a single bike for a long time, provided their customers actually paid for the work. Sales were slow. Nobody is arguing that it wasn't. But it takes volume to reduce prices and the superbike market is flooded with 07 R1's, and the like. EBR was clearly finding other ways to eat besides selling bikes. There is just no way a boutique bike's price with American labor costs is going to come in under a volume giant's like Honda, or Suzuki. So why not race? Going from finishing 19th and 20th every race to 15th and 16th the next season is improvement. Nobody comes out with a bike and wins WSBK in the same year. Finishing on the same lap as the leader on a horsepower track is a huge accomplishment for the razor handling EBR 1190rx. The area that needs to be criticized is marketing. EBR came and went and I'm sure many never even knew the 1190rx was for sale. | ||
| Hughlysses |
In all honesty, other than a vanity thing, why would EBR dump so much money into WSB while clearly struggling to get a decent dealer network and actually sell bikes? What is the interest in WSB in the US? A hundred thousand hardcore fans, if that? The whole race on Sunday, sell on Monday is a tired old cliche. It may have held weight back in the day when NASCAR was running basically stock machines, but it's simply not true today, particularly in a race series that has marginal interest in the US, the market where EBR was building their bikes and most likely to sell them. Whatever was spent on race bikes and teams would have been far better spent developing affordable bikes and creating a network for selling them. According to what's been posted on Badweb, Hero directly bankrolled the WSBK effort. The publicity from WSBK probably made more sense to Hero's efforts to publicize their brand world-wide, | ||
| Blake |
Racing teaches. Racing publicizes. The WSB racing was sponsored by Hero. The name of the company was EBR, and the "R" was for "racing." | ||
| Classax |
Its kind of hard to sell a race replica if you don't race it. In 2014 the AMA was in the crapper and possibly facing a 6 race season with NO publicity. HERO wanted international exposure and bank rolled the racing in WSBk. 2015 seemed on the verge of delivering excellent results in WSBK, Pegram appeared to be contending for points and Canepa was always a threat to crack the top ten if he doesn't crash. Otherwise EBR would have stayed in AMA/MOTO America with just one team in the form of Pegram Racing. IF I were FIM I would be suing HERO for breach of contract in that the contract states they would complete ALL rounds with two riders. The team worst hurt by this is Pegram Racing in that they didn't get to race WSbk or Moto America for the whole season. What about the TV Show commitments, what about the other sponsors? All screwed. Pegram's whole year was totally shafted. | ||
| Court |
What if EBR had just about NOTHING to do with the WSBK ...... The decision to go racing or the funding or decision making? What if HERO did it as a separate initiative simply to splatter the HERO name about in anticipation of a future marketing effort. The WSBK racing was complexly separate, in funding and in management, from EBR hence the prospect of continuing, since it was unread, after the 129 filing. | ||
| Snacktoast |
I believe Court just hit the nail on the head.  | ||
| Classax |
The area that needs to be criticized is marketing. EBR came and went and I'm sure many never even knew the 1190RXwas for sale. Most people don't know what they are and every time I'm around people who do, at least one out five people aren't aware that the RX does NOT cost $40K plus. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Yeah, I get the impression that the first EBR offering's cost just scared a lot of people away from the brand's subsequent offerings. Like for instance, I don't check the prices on Bentley and Rolls Royce because I "know" that they are too expensive. For all I actually know, they are as cheap as a Ford FlexFusionFiesta. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
The nomenclature for the SX, RX & RS might have worked for the EBR engineers, but it leaves alot to be desired from a marketing standpoint. Hell, I am a Buell fanatic and I still have a hard time remembering what model is what. For the casual observer to know....forget about it. | ||
| Airbozo |
I still have to convince people my 2000 S3T is not a custom bike built in some random garage. And these are people that ride and in some cases own HD's... I have always thought that Buell was HD's best kept secret. | ||
| Froggy |
I do not believe this has been posted yet: http://www.jsonline.com/business/with-his-motorcyc le-company-up-for-auction-erik-buell-craves-anothe r-comeback-b99535394z1-317329291.html | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ There are some very interesting details in that article. | ||
| Greatlaker |
"Court records show that Erik Buell Racing has $20.8 million in assets and $20.4 million in liabilities. Former employees are owed $202,000 in paid time off, and some of the largest amounts owed to creditors include $733,000 to Mito Tech Co., a Japanese engine design firm, and $390,000 to Porsche Engineering Group." Very curious. Mito Tech, a japanese engine design firm and Porsche. Does anybody have any idea what work Mito Tech and Porsche may have done for EBR? A new engine in the wings for EBR perhaps? Or was this in collaboration with EBR for something for Hero? I'd love to know how Porsche is involved considering that Audi and Ducati are corporate partners and that Porsche is part of the Volkswagen group. It seems to me it might be a slight conflict of interest to have Porsche involved with EBR while Audi is involved with Ducati regardless of how independent Porsche engineering is from the Volkswagen group. So bizarre that EBR would tap into Porsche and Mito Tech for engineering help when there is so much engineering development technology available within the North American continent. The story just gets weirder and weirder. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
It's probably a licensing fee sort of deal. Just conjecture. Perhaps some of the combustion chamber magic is German-influenced? As for Mito tech: http://www.mitotech.jp/profile/index_e.html Sounds like another small company that does engineering work. One can only guess what portion of the bikes are influenced or made by them. May be as minor as licensing fees for using their simulation software or actually making stuff like titanium hardware or gaskets. I would actually love to see a color coded map like the magazines used in 2006 to show the origins of the parts. Some parts are intangible as ideas and they wouldn't be shown on the map. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Erik specifically said in one of the post-closure interviews that they had some amazing stuff in the works, including less-expensive models that would have been ready for production in ~18 months. That sure implies an all-new engine which might explain these companies' involvement. Hopefully those bikes will see the light of day eventually. | ||
| Davegess |
Does anybody have any idea what work Mito Tech and Porsche may have done for EBR? I do.  Sorry can't resist. Nothing I want to talk about however just wanted to tease you guys  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Confirmation that the auction has been delayed was posted to EBR's Facebook page earlier today. "Slight delay" was the term used. (Message edited by Hughlysses on July 20, 2015) | ||
| Two_seasons |
You berry berry bad man!!!!! No soup for you!!!!! | ||
| Davegess |
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