| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
God's explanation of His name in the book of Exodus might be best translated as "I am that I am", later as "The Great I Am." That sure seems like the most direct description of a non-contingent being, the one true necessarily existing thing to which all contingent things owe their existence.. Atheists say that the one true necessary thing is the universe or a multiverse. That it spawns itself. No mind needed, just nature magically creating itself out of zero. Even a magician gets a hat to pull a rabbit out of. | ||
| Blake |
Tank, I've never made it all the way to Big Bend. The closest I've been is the Fort Davis and Marfa area. I would like to see big-band someday. It's about as far from Kilgore as you can get while remaining in Texas, a fourteen hour drive or so. | ||
| Pwnzor |
God made both the rabbit and the hat. More than this, He knows the rabbit's true name, and the true name of the man who made the hat. He knows the true name of the sheep from whom the wool was shorn before man ever conceived the hat. And so on. | ||
| Mackja |
In my tradition one is born again through baptism. John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Believe me, no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless birth comes to him from water, and from the Holy Spirit." So all who are baptized are born again, by the spirit of God. Some traditions believe that at this baptism all of our sins and the stain of original sin are cleaned away, we call it baptismal regeneration. This is just the beginning the first time Gods grace touches our soul, growth continues. As for myself I am a cradle Catholic, although I walked away for about 25 years. As I felt that something was missing in my life I started the walk back to the Church. At first I looked at other traditions, Baptist, Methodist, so called non denominational etc... . In the end, and by way of a very personal experience I locked down firmly back with the Catholic Church. No drugs, alcohol or devastating events had any influence on my decision. | ||
| Mackja |
Blake, the idea that the Catholic Church is legalistic, is misguided. Believe me when I say, what people think the Catholic Church is and what she really is, is miles apart. We don't have a bunch of rules that we must do or suffer some kind of punishment. Outside of a few dogmas and doctrines we have a wide freedom. Doctrines in the Catholic church come about when a teaching vital to the salvation of the faithful is questioned, the Church will make a dogmatic statement or doctrine that the faithful are bound to. Example: When Arius and Nestorius thought against the Churches established teaching on the divine and human nature of Christ, the Church came into council listened to what Arius and Nestorius had to say, they inquired first, condemned there teaching and formally established the doctrine on the Trinity, the nature and person of Christ. To this day all Christian traditions follow this teaching. | ||
| Aesquire |
How many of you who have been responding are considered born again Christian? Not me. I did go through what I suppose was a typical for the day spiritual seeking from teen years through adulthood. ( If I can claim to be there now? ) Baptized Roman Catholic, Went to Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, churches.. ( Sister went to Baptist church for some years, Because of the Choir. ) In college looked at various Eastern faiths, took comparative religion, and read all the Carlos Castanada books, etc. etc. Then years of martial art meditation. Got yelled at for racing to alpha state with a bio feedback machine with another student... Competitive meditation defeats the philosophical purpose.  Chose Asatru. Works for me. TRUE story. Missionaries come to our house, my kid Sister, then 14 or so, answers door. She is asked what religion we are. That one is a tough question, see above. So she passes the buck and asked My Father, sitting in his "Archie Bunker" Dad's chair, reading the paper. Without missing a beat he replied "Reform Druid. We worship bushes." They fled. Personally I think Druid is an interesting faith, but Not for me. I did declare myself Reform Druid for some years, since a minor is by default the parent's faith. ( until/unless he changes ) Patriarchal society, so I was what my Father said. Respect the Elders and all that.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'm going to ask a question that unfortunately is very personal for those who wish to answer. How many of you who have been responding are considered born again Christian? Of those, how many of you have had prior substance (drugs our alcohol) addictions and then became born again. I mean no disrespect at all but I'm interested. And because it's truth. Sorry if it's offensive don't mean it to be but curious. I would definitely consider myself born again Christian. I have not had personal experience with substance abuse, but I have two close friends, Christians, who have. The first was my mentor. Brilliant guy. Strong Christian. Started with pain killers for a rugby injury. Added alcohol. Moved on to cocaine. Finally heroin. He was in rehab and was three years clean when he fell off the wagon. Reset his baseline and blew his heart. I do not doubt for a minute his salvation, but I do believe that he succumbed to a temptation that ended his life. My second friend was an alcoholic. He hit rock bottom when in September of last year during an alcohol induced blackout he was found naked on a sofa with another woman. Had no idea how he got there. Didn't know if there was any sexual content. Christian friends and family helped them through the rough patch. He is completely alcohol free, and he and his wife have never been closer. Christianity doesn't prevent temptation nor does it guarantee successful resistance to temptation. Humans still possess human nature and falter in the face of temptation. Even Paul struggled with temptation and often failed. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Romans 7:15 "Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." 2 Corinthians 12 ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/ohwell.gif) | ||
| Blake |
No substance abuse here either. | ||
| Zane |
No longer born again. I grew up in the Grace Brethren denomination. Think of the Southern Baptist on steroids. Very strict and rigid. No drinking, no dancing, and for some reason we should cower in front a God they claim is a loving God. The ideal was to live as Christ like a life as possible, to emulate Christ in our life. Then in heaven we'd sit at the Master's feet and cast crowns of gold to him. Sounds like a boring way to spend eternity to me. I spent a lot of time at the church. Leader of the Youth group, even preached a little at nursing homes and a couple of drug rehab places the church supported. My mother even dreamed of me going to seminary and becoming a preacher. At 20 I walked away from it all. I got tired of trying to live up to the unattainable standard of God. I no longer identify myself as born again. In Grace Brethren terms I've "fallen away" from God. Now I just try to live a calm life, and treat people with respect and deference. If that isn't good enough for God, then screw it. No drug abuse history at all. Never even tried pot. On rare occasions I'll have to much to drink but as I age, that happens less and less often. "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh" Robert A. Heinlein. | ||
| Blake |
Interesting story Zane, and one not too uncommon. It never ceases to amaze how the simple message of Christ's gospel can be so corrupted. Fire and brimstone, guilt and shame, tough to reconcile with Christ. Beaten, tortured, humiliated, nailed to a cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." But if we dance or have a drink we're doomed to hell? Preachers playing God. "My path is easy, and my burden light." Salvation through grace, that "amazing grace", a gift freely given to all who simply accept it. But faith is required. Many prefer to focus their faith elsewhere. We're free to do so. | ||
| Mackja |
I have never understood the fire and brimstone preaching, what good does it do to be afraid of God. Kinda has things backwards. God's love and mercy are endless, beyond our comprehension. I have always understood "fear of the Lord" as being fear of loosing his friendship, something only I can do, He loves us unconditionally. One of the ways I look at the Church is like bumper cars, we are traveling on a path, if we go to far to the right or left we get bumped back on the path. The Church is their to guide and protect us, she has only one concern, the salvation of our souls. | ||
| Blake |
"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge." — King Solomon | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"Fear" is such a one dimensional word to describe a much larger understanding. The original Hebrew word is yurt which is a derivative of yarah. Yarah means awe, fear. In Hebrew, though, the word is altered a bit to mean "flowing from the gut". If you've ever gotten the butterflies waiting in line for a roller coaster or outside the Principal's office, what is being described is yirat. When a noun is attached to another noun the first noun becomes the ownership of the second. Yirat Yahweh becomes "flowing from the gut of God". A more accurate translation is "The flowing of God is the beginning of wisdom." I never feared my father, but I did fear his judgement when I disobeyed. I had respect and reverence toward my father. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
A sample size of one of anything is a poor representation of anything. | ||
| Mackja |
There are sevens gift of the Holy Spirit, they all hinge on Fear of the Lord. In the Greek Suptuagint it translates to "Spirit of Godliness". These gifts have corresponding virtues. The Gift of fear if the Lord corresponds to the virtue of hope, the gift of wisdom corresponds to the virtue of charity, the gift of understanding and knowledge correspond to the virtue of faith, the gift of council corresponds to the virtue of prudence, gift of fortitude corresponds with the virtue of courage, and the gift of reverence corresponds to the virtue of justice. These gifts are given to us at baptism, are strengthened at confirmation (the individual confirms themselves in the faith) and the sacraments (I know those outside Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran traditions may not understand the sacramental system, another topic for another time. These gifts become more apparent to us as our relationship with Christ deepens. Through a good prayer life, and living out our faith in Christ we start on the path of fulfilling our vocation to be saints. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Church is like bumper cars, we are traveling on a path, if we go to far to the right or left we get bumped back on the path." Apparently you do bumper cars differently that everyone else. | ||
| Mackja |
"Apparently you do bumper cars differently that everyone else." LMAO!! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Church is like bumper cars, but not as you describe. Your beliefs should continually be challenged, tested, disturbed. If you are going in a circle and are never bumped, you are doing it wrong. | ||
| Mackja |
My beliefs are firm because they rest in Christ and His Church. If I challenge the faith of the Church I am challenging Christ. I am tested everyday, have struggles everyday, never disturbed because in Christ I have peace and serenity. I have full faith in His promises to us. Glória in excélsis Deo et in terra pax homínibus bonae voluntátis! | ||
| Aesquire |
Challenging the faith of the Church does not mean being uncritical of the humans who run it. They should be challenged if the need arises. Like the NY Cardinal who went to Rome to avoid prosecution. Pretty stained glass though. | ||
| Mackja |
Challenging the people is quite different than challenging the faith. I am not saying not to challenge those who do wrong, but the teachings of the Christ is something we are called to accept, believe and follow. For some reason our society today wants to condemn institutions, and individuals entire life because of one mistake. How can one or even several mistakes make a persons life time worthless. If that is the case we all are pretty well worthless. We demand so much from others, but little from ourselves. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think if you are not continually evaluating what it means to live out Christ, you are not really pursuing Christ. I believe everything you are told by the Church should be weighed and measured against the guidance granted a Christian by the Holy Spirit. Just because a "leader, elder, deacon, pastor, priest" says something is it correct, right and proper. Blind acceptance isn't biblical. If your critical thinking ends with the Catholic/Baptist/Lutheran Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, you are doing it wrong. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Society seeks justice. Church failing to hold religious leaders accountable for actions abrogates justice. A Church that knowingly and willfully hides criminal activities should expect the ire to be raised by faith adherents and faith detractors alike. As an example, I have been personally present to three "mistakes" where justice was served. First instance was my youth pastor who had an affair with a lady in the church. He was removed from leadership, terminated and did not return to church staff. Second instance was a different youth pastor who saw fit to fondle youth girls on the church bus. He was removed from leadership, terminated and charged with incorrect contact with a minor. He did not return to church staff. Third instance was a pastor who incorrectly utilized church funds (paid for daughter's wedding, bought expensive suits, bought dinners out). He was removed from leadership, terminated. He was not charged as the church didn't want to file charges, but he will never be a pastor again. This is how "mistakes" are handled. If the church had sought to hide these activities in order to preserve the worth of a person's life time, the church would have been as guilty as those making "mistakes". There is forgiveness in Christ, but there are consequences to be satisfied under the law of men. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. | ||
| Mackja |
I understand your point, but it is a little different in the Catholic/Orthodox Church. Our teachings have not changed in 2000 years. I can read any of the apostolic fathers and it sounds just like I am reading what the Church teaches today. Things do develop, knowledge, technology move forward, the teachings have to be made applicable to the times and the people. God is immutable and so are His teachings, so as far as the foundations of the faith are concerned nothing can change. Christ is the same today, tomorrow and forever. We also believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and when it concerns things of faith and morals the Church cannot error. "And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee. 18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" I can most certainly question how and what members of the Church do and say, but I have no authority to say they are wrong or misinformed about things of faith and morals. This is different from protestants who view themselves as the interpreter of the faith. I know this is one of the big differences, but it seems to me their are a bunch more popes in the protestant churches than have ever been in the catholic Church. Problem is how does a Christian know if he is guided by the Holy Spirit or satan, if they have no standard to base it on. The Spirit can only unite not divide. If I say the Spirit is guiding me one way and you say another how can one know for sure without an authority to show them. "And Philip, as he ran up, heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and asked, Canst thou understand what thou art reading? 31 How could I, said he, without someone to guide me? And he entreated Philip to come up and sit beside him." We all filter things differently, translations make a huge difference in understanding. English is probably the worst language to translate scripture into. Latin and Greek have words that mean phrases and English does not. With out historical context their is no way for us to understand. I think it is quite arrogant to think that in my 50-60 years of existence I can know more than all the minds of the Church over the last 2000 years. Granted this is a point that I know we will not agree upon, but it is good to know how each other understands things. | ||
| Aesquire |
The Church cannot error? Arguable. The Church declares the infallibility of itself? In any event when a high ranking member conceals child rape the Organization is harmed and should be. One case is a single flawed man. Multiple cases is a flawed culture. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Church leaders who intentionally cover up criminal activities are wrong whether it's Peter or Pope Francis. The Catholic Church got it very wrong. It is the responsibility of Catholics to hold Catholic leadership accountable. There was a reason the veil was torn from top to bottom. It signified the end to the requirement for the priesthood as intercessor between man and God. Until man is made perfect on earth, man's actions and word, even the Papacy, must be measured against the direct revelations of God. | ||
| Mackja |
Again no one is saying that any individual is without error, we clearly understand all sin including popes. It is only infallible on matters of faith and morals, period, nothing else. The Church should be held accountable, so too the individuals responsible. Everyone wants to attack and focus on the bad, but no body want to look at the thousands of religious sisters, brothers, priest that go about doing God's work every day. No we must look at all those bad priest only. We let our government off the hook, our schools off the hook, the problem is quite worse in non Catholic communities. According to the insurance institute, there are over 5000 claim of sexual molestation by non Catholic clergy in the U.S.every year, how many that are not reported. Are those communities holding there clergy responsible!! Lets not point fingers where everyone is guilty, that does no one any good. This in no way justifies the issue, but this is a societal problem, the Church is not immune to those issues. "Until man is made perfect on earth, man's actions and word, even the Papacy, must be measured against the direct revelations of God" Still have a problem who determines what Gods revelation is, you must have an authority. This is why when I looked at what many other communities offered, the issue of authority was never addressed, I guess this is why we have over 33000 denominations and only one Church. I know this is one difference I appreciate and respect that, but God's grace is not dependent on the behavior or character of any individual. If a bad pastor offers a blessing that blessing is good, if a bad priest offers a sacrament, it is still efficacious. Jesus said that the Church united to Peter will not be drawn in. Peter constantly put his foot in his mouth, but he was still given the keys, and the authority to bind and loose. Because Peter was guided by the Holy Spirit from teaching error, even though he was a sinner. With out a recognizable authority, where would we be, Arianism, Nestorianism, Gnostisim, manicheism, pelagianism, etc... Even the scripture we have comes to us from God, through the Church. The Acts of the apostles give evidence to this, Peter and Paul both sinners, where able to cast out demons, heal the sick, not by here own authority, but by the authority given them from Christ. Sinful people doing good and holy work. I like a good discussion, I have not insinuated or insulted anything about the belief of others, just shared how I understand. We can continue, but not if we start attacking each other. That is not the purpose of this discussions. | ||
| Aesquire |
No attack on you. This thread began with the statement that the institution of Church was a problem, not faith in your deity. Not necessarily true but any bureaucracy has a natural tendency to growth of bureaucracy, at the expense of the job it's created to do...... and thus fails at it's original mission. Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. As true for schools and business as it is for a Church. I'm happy you have a spiritual home. I just don't buy that any human made institution is infallible in morality. Pointing out that pastors in other denominations rape children {more often} does not excuse your own. At all. You, I have no doubt, don't approve of such things. Not a guilt you share. But some few leaders do. That said, the Church of Rome has made serious effort to stop the abuse. And if you want to believe that my little pony holds the keys to heaven or the Pope is infallible, go ahead. I'm far more likely to believe the pony writers have a positive spiritual agenda. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Understand, my statements were not intended as an attack. Your responses, though, implied infallibility where none existed and actions sanctioned that are as far from those of Christ as possible. "It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble." Pretty clear on the meaning here. Not much ambiguity. Instead of throwing them "into the sea" they were transferred. Some to cause little ones to stumble again somewhere else. We are ALL imbued with the authority of Christ through the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. It isn't just the priesthood who have been given authority to cast out demons in God's name. ALL of those who are Christians are given that authority. It's the hesitancy to condemn Ungodly acts by people of the church that draws the ire of those who do not believe. Why would an "unbeliever" wish to join a body which protects sexual criminals or thieves or murderers from justice and the consequences of their actions? Just as WBC is a blight upon Christianity, so too are churches which permit and condone Ungodly acts or seek to minimize their horror. I call "moderate Muslims" on the carpet for failing to stand up to "radical Islam". Should I do any less for members of my own faith? When a Duggar or Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggart falter, we as Christians MUST own that failure. Instead, we minimize it. We rationalize it. Others are watching, looking for hypocrisy. We cannot give reason to be called hypocritical. There are differences between Protestants and Catholics. Some are minor. Others are not. I call you brother in Christ. I do not doubt your faith in Christ. I simply don't want to be party to causing others to stumble. If you read comments of former church attendees and atheists, hypocrisy is the single largest claim. We don't practice what we profess. | ||
| Aesquire |
How bad does an individual franchise of a large corporation have to be to tarnish the image of the whole? Let's say Burger king has one franchise store that serves rancid food. The company certainly does not approve, and should yank the license. Burger king takes a pr hit, and moves on. But if the district manager covers up the problem and moves the criminal store manager to a different store.....to sin again and again, it's the company's problem even if it's just a few bad upper level managers. Unless the company publicly hammers the district managers as hard as the store level ones, it's a pr nightmare. Instead of a bad season it's a complete loss of trust. And if other chains have the same problem but Burger king was first to get publicized, Every McDonalds case is going to remind people of Burger king. The reporting will say things like "another case of rancid fast food, like the famous Burger king cases". Lose lose in cover ups. |
