| Author | Message | ||
     Ourdee |
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God? "Then whence cometh evil?" Step back, I got this one. Isaiah 45 : 7 (I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.) KJV | ||
| Johnod |
Good to know, the lord doesn't get nearly enough credit for evil, from the flock. Give credit where credit is due. (Message edited by johnod on May 10, 2015) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Ourdee, the KJV isn't exactly correct. NIV has the translation a little clearer: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery. Moral evil requires a human active participant. By virtue of that, God is not causing man to commit evil. Man is committing evil of his own free will. This verse pertains to sickness, to natural disasters, to famines, to plagues. In these God alone is the actor. Man is merely the one impacted. My in-laws live in Joplin where an F-6 tornado claimed the lives of 158 people and did $2.2B in damage. It moved an entire hospital off its foundation by 6 feet. This wasn't man caused moral evil, but it was God caused calamity.  | ||
| Pwnzor |
Job 1:21 ...And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
And yet even throughout Job's calamities, Job didn't curse God, didn't choose a moral evil. God did allow all these things to occur. In fact, Satan couldn't take any action against Job directly. “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord." God, having perfect knowledge of time, knew that Job wouldn't turn from him regardless of what befell him. Satan didn't have that knowledge of outcomes. Job didn't have that knowledge of outcomes. God did though. Not only that but God hung the target on Job. "Have you considered my servant Job?" | ||
| Mackja |
If God is the actual act that put all things in motion, then nature which has been put in motion from the beginning of creation is working in according to the will of the creator. Man who is part of creation lives with and in nature and becomes subject to what nature produces. Earthquakes, tornadoes, floods are not evil, they are part of the natural movement of things, acting in accordance to their nature. In this day and age man many times places himself in the path of this natural action. Building your city on the side of a volcano, or knowing California is going to have a super quake and still living their. So are we not putting ourselves in the path of nature by an act of our own will. To be a species that is evolving, having the ability to learn and reason, sometimes we go counter to reason because we just want to. Evil is a reality that exist, and not an act of nature. Evil is deceptive, twist mans mind to do things against reason that harms himself and others. In the correct understanding we see that faith and science are not at odds, but work together, for science comes out of creation, a study of the action of the great "I AM" | ||
| Aesquire |
Correct. Daily volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. Happens. Not a satanic thing. It's a universe of incredible forces, exploding suns, black holes. Without supernovae, you couldn't exist. (All elements heavier than iron come from supernovae) | ||
| Johnod |
"nature which has been put in motion from the beginning of creation is working in according to the will of the creator" Well that would make him responsible for all "natural" disasters. I don't think anyone cares if "evil" is involved when their home blows away and family killed. I know I certainly don't. Frankly, imo if you want to credit your god with all the good things, then he has to take the blame for all the bad too. How about cancer, encephalitis, tumors, etc? I mean, if you just get credit for all the good and none of the bad it hardly seems fair, or just. (Message edited by johnod on May 11, 2015) | ||
| Sifo |
I think that one has to keep things in perspective. If you think that God should be more concerned about someone's premature demise here on Earth, you may just be missing the entire point of what's going on. Try to think bigger picture. | ||
| Johnod |
If he's not concerned about me and mine's well being, what's the point? I thought that WAS the point "he loves me and cares for me, watches over me etc". If he doesn't give a crap, why am bowing and scraping before him then, fear? (Message edited by johnod on May 11, 2015) | ||
| Sifo |
The point is that YOU don't end at your death here on Earth. | ||
| Aesquire |
Johnod, if you don't like the gods you were brought up with, chose a different pantheon. Your choice. The Greek gods for example, bunch of horny jealous ones there. Might like the god of the forge. Or the Roman ones. Assyrian? Not a fan myself, but all of them I can think of expect you to make your own choices. Good, bad, suboptimal. A supreme being that ran us all by remote wouldn't be running humans. Just zombies. Pretty obvious that isn't the world we live in.....or you couldn't ask these questions. Perhaps Tantrism. Reality is this world..... not another, and you work to understand and improve..... I'm not the one to talk with about that one. Seek out your own teacher. I can teach meditation through the second level but not over the internet. I don't feel qualified to teach third level. Man's got to know his limitations. ( Josey Wales) Some people push past them. (Message edited by aesquire on May 11, 2015) | ||
| Mackja |
The other side of this is divine revelation, while man was created perfect and lived in paradise in communion with God, man allowed himself to be deceived by true evil thereby breaking the covenant which God had offered them. This was a free act of the will, paradise was lost, all the pain, disease, suffering, is caused by that. God humbled Himself, became man and dwelt among us. Suffered a great scourge, betrayal, humiliation, and took on the sins of all humanity from the first sin of Adam to the last sin of mankind, He who know no sin became sin. His suffering was greater than any man could ever experience, and this was done to restore the covenant with man for the salvation of his soul. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
A physical world without calamity, disease, hardship limits human capacity and stifles man's growth. Compassion, sacrifice, service, kindness, long suffering, patience, empathy, providence, generosity, redemption, restitution, hope all come from the human condition, from this physical existence. How can you have compassion for someone who has suffered nothing? How can you sacrifice for someone who already has all that they need? How can you serve someone who needs no service? How can you have empathy for someone if you've never suffered? How can you provide for someone who needs no provision or be generous? How can you redeem someone who isn't broken or restore that which was never lost? How can one have hope if tomorrow holds no better promise than today? I support an orphanage in El Progresso Honduras. I have painted their walls and stained the woodwork. I have played soccer with some of the older children and hugged and held the younger ones.  I currently sponsor Allen. We pay for all of his school and all of the food he needs and clothes he needs. We can't adopt him, but want to make sure that his needs are met.  I painted the walls and stained the woodwork behind him. Looks good for a gringo!    I hate that these kids have to live without the benefit of parents (or parents who can afford to take care of them). I can't adopt them (although I am supporting friends who are adopting from this orphanage), but I can support them. I can love them. While their situation is a combination of natural disasters and man made evil creating a life that isn't what any of us would want to choose for another, I am thankful for the opportunity to serve them, to provide for them, to be able to give them hope, to love them. Allen is holding a picture of all of us from the day we took him from the orphanage for a day and treated him. My wife and kids got to go. My son was 10 at the time and my daughter was 7. Their lives are forever changed by getting to go. I think about them every day. My life is impacted by positively impacting theirs. They know that there is someone across the world who loves them enough to take care of them. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Could it be that God is more interested in the character within us than he is with the comfort around us? Could it be that we struggle with my son so that I can appreciate better the blessings I have been given, can appreciate the struggle of others? Could it be that without the interaction whereby others are bettered by our efforts, our sacrifice, our love our lives feel hollow, shallow, meaningless? What percentage of lottery winners fare well once their every want and need is provided for? | ||
| Johnod |
So some are put here to suffer so others can have the chance to feel better about themselves? That's some screwed up logic. (Message edited by johnod on May 11, 2015) (Message edited by johnod on May 11, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
That's a particularly evil way to look at it. Sounds BS to me. In fact, it's one of the main cons of Communism. The Aristocracy has it's wealth and power, unearned, on the back of the peasants. Perhaps true, but the Communist reality is that it's evil men wanting to be the New Aristocracy, and the result, as history shows, is even worse than the Czars & Kings it displaces. I do note that in a different era, James T. Kirk repeatedly trashed some paradise where everyone was happy, or nearly everyone. ( in The Return Of The Archons, there was an underground unhappy with their perfect society ) The rationalization for this was Man Must Struggle to find happiness, it cannot be given to him. In older fiction "The Time Machine" the people of the future, the Eloi, were childlike and happy. They were also actually the food supply for the Morlocks. Yep, it's supposed to be a metaphor. Now if you buy the idea of the Universe as a fixed event, everything happens was going to anyway. Time is an illusion that we petty creatures experience, but everything that has happened, will happen and is happening now is just what it is... ( and presumably an Omniscient being would have already seen it all happen ) There is no free will, Nothing you decide matters, etc. etc. That, fortunately, does not SEEM to be the way it works. Your choices make the future. So do mine, and every choice made by every thing that isn't strictly programmed. Even there, the fractal Chaotic nature of natural phenomena SEEMS to make it impossible to predict when the volcano will erupt, where the Tornado will touch down, or if it will rain on your parade, more than a short time before the reality coalesces out of the chaos that is the not yet. Maybe. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I have been the one in need. More than once. Others provided for me. In fact, I currently have a motorcycle because someone provided one when I couldn't afford one. We each suffer hardship. It isn't the removal of hardship that betters us. It is the caring for others during hardship that betters us. | ||
| Mackja |
NO, suffering is a reality which stems from mans rejection of God's love. God Himself in the person of His Son suffered for us, His suffering is an expression of love. We are called to love as God loves, suffering is part of the Christian life, we will suffer just as Christ suffered, by uniting our suffering with His, suffering becomes redemptive. It is not about feeling better about ourselves because love of neighbor can require suffering on our part, for us to make a sacrifice for the benefit of our neighbor is compassion. The book of James tells us that faith without works is dead, or no faith, in other words if I fail to love I have no faith at all, this is what is understood as good works. I am called to love God, and neighbor, the more we love God, the more we can love our neighbor, this leads us to the understanding of the Holy Spirit and God's grace. We have one opportunity to get a glimpse of God, and that is through His Son. This is why for the Christian scripture is so important, scripture is God the Father revealing Himself through His Son. Their is so much to share here, a forum is limited, so I do the best can under the circumstances | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me." There will always be "the poor". "The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep." So we will always have the poor, and if you love Jesus, take care of them. “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh." 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” | ||
| Aesquire |
NO, suffering is a reality which stems from mans rejection of God's love. Yes, SOME suffering, (ok, a butt load ) stems from man not following a good path as laid out by many religions. I can think of so many conditions that cannot possibly apply. An innocent baby cannot possibly reject God and yet still can suffer. Asteroid strike blinds you and leaves you with 3rd degree burns, not a human rejection issue there either. Perhaps a minor point. a nit pick. How about,...... All that is evil, is man. Nature, red of tooth and claw, is innocent. Cosmic catastrophes, packs of wolves, lightning, all are neither evil nor good, since they have no choice. Is that about right? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
This is a shanty town called Mt. Olivos outside of El Progresso:  This village used to be a squatter town closer to the outside of town. The residents worked odd jobs around the city, swept the streets, collected garbage. The city fathers decided that they should be removed. They packed up their "houses", pieces of wood, cardboard and corrugated metal. A local catholic church had a patch of land that they provided and created a village. Many people worked to provide them first with fresh water.  It was fun putting that tank on the tower.  View from the tower. Then many people worked to provide real houses:   The catholic church deeded the land for each plot to the members of the village. It's so fun to see how proud they are of their home. THEIR home. A place where they can live and no one can take it away from them. There will always be the poor, if you love me, feed my sheep, provide fresh water for my sheep, build homes for my sheep..... | ||
| 86129squids |
My sis has worked for the last 20 years as a hospital chaplain in LR, AR. She has worked in ministry, doing God's work her entire life... My sister has become an "aunt" to a little girl, an infant, born to a mother addicted to methamphetamine, and whatever else. This little girl is being fostered by one of my sis' best friends, so actually she has several "aunts". My sis has never married, nor had kids, and her very job description defies anyone who "had a bad day at work"- but her life is filled with love, and the administering of same. I am routinely baffled by God's grace in allowing me to call her Sister. I tend to describe myself as agnostic, but, there IS a GOD/GODDESS, (gotta be female to be a kind GOD.) Great thread, just cut me some slack. I could use a little about now. (Message edited by 86129squids on May 12, 2015) | ||
| 86129squids |
Jeremy- thank you. God's grace and kindness will follow you, and yours. I am glad, blessed to be your friend. | ||
| Gobadgers |
In Daniel there is a passage: Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. Then behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees..…Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future." Daniel 10 The point is, even the angel sent to Daniel was delayed in conflict with Satan for 21 days and needed the Angel Michael to come and help. There are mighty battles between good and evil going on in the universe. God is at War. Evil is real and a force that exists that is much bigger than man, causing all kinds of havoc. It is hard to understand why bad things happen to good people. Yet, we live in a fallen world where the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" continues to roam, act and deceive. (Message edited by GoBadgers on May 12, 2015) | ||
| Alfau |
because the Church allows openly gay bishops and performs gay weddings Can they bestow the gift of life through shoving your tool into a turd hole? the quick answer is No you fool. | ||
| Mackja |
The sins of man are not just at that moment, those sins go on generation after generation. The sins we commit today can affect others for many many years, so yes a butt load of suffering comes about from mans own sinfulness. When we reject Gods love we fail to love our neighbor. Evil does exist, and affects all of society including the Church. So we all struggle to over come evil in our lives, to fight the good fight so wee can hear from our Lord at our judgment, well done good and faithful servant! | ||
| Aesquire |
I don't have a problem with gays getting married if I can marry Donna & Jackie from "That 70's Show". Ignoring that they may already be married, I never met either, they are fictional, and I should be so lucky. Historically one man one woman is fairly recent, Euro-centric, and not universal, even today. Majority but not inevitable. Then again. I had a thing for Betty & Veronica, Ginger & Mary Ann, The Bangles..... sorry that could be TMI...  | ||
| Alfau |
What team are you batting for Patrick ? | ||
| Patches |
As recent as 6500 years ago? Genesis 2:21-24King James Version (KJV) 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. |
