| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
I f you believe God Has A Plan, and you learned it from another human... use salt. I do have a simple litmus test. Does it hurt others? No? Then carry on. If it calls for hurting others in the Name Of The Holy whatever, I wish the Authorities luck in putting you in a safe place ( for the rest of us ) BEFORE you fulfill that "Plan". Science may indeed someday Prove God. Can't Disprove Her, according to the Jesuits, and I agree. You can't use Politics to Make something True. You can't use Astrophysics to change a mind, ( it has happened though. Novas, Eclipses, Comets, etc. ) you can use Chemistry sometimes. But a club ( Physics ) may be more honorable. Intelligent Design is not Science. Philosophy, sure. You tell me that the complexity of DNA or the fractal nature of a leaf or arterial system from a tiny bit of code proves, PROVES! that there is an Universal Architect, I may agree there is, but that's not proof, it's reasoning based on observation. Aristotle would slap you, if he had been an Experimentalist, instead of a Deep Thinker. Nothing wrong with Deep Thinkers. I will point out that some Deep Thinkers produce wonders, and others suffering. I may agree with your conclusion, but unless you can try to disprove it, and fail, and others can try, and fail, I'm thinking you've got a good idea, but it's not Rocket Science. Speaking of Rocket Science. Meanwhile, in Physics, there may, or may not be a complete redo on a big chunk of our understanding of the Universe. http://www.wired.com/2015/05/nasa-warp-drive-yeah- still-poppycock/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive First, Ignore any talk about Warp Speed. If the drive works, then, yes, in a few centuries we may have Warp Drive, but that's not the issue here. If a machine can produce thrust without tossing matter or photons out the back, that violates a basic Law. BUT it only violates a Basic Law if the nature of space is a certain way, and doesn't violate the Law if it's a certain other way. So it's not "does it break the Law?" ( as the author at Wired complains ) it's "do we understand the fabric of space underlying the rest of our Astrophysics?" We are at a point in out theories about the Universe that reminds me, and some others, of the epicycles that were thought to explain the motion of the Planets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle as it turns out, there are not actually epicycles, although it sort of looks that way, but instead Ellipses. It also looks like the Sun goes around the Earth, if you don't measure everything carefully. Also note the section "slang for bad science". I AM using Epicycles as slang for bad science, and think the authors of that section protest too much.....  Today, in Physics, they have had to invent Dark Matter, and Dark Energy, to make the math work to explain the actual observations of the Universe. Undetectable stuff that cannot be seen, felt or measured strikes me as a bit more religion than science, but others disagree... General Relativity depends on the invisible stuff they just reasoned into existence to make the math work. But if the Universe has what was once called Aether, considered disproved by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Mor ley_experiment then the math works without the Dark Stuff. It's possible the Michelson-Morley experiment was influenced by frame dragging, or in other terms, the "stationary luminiferous aether" isn't stationary at all, and the result does not disprove the existence of aether. Just aether than holds still to some unknown universal reference point.... And everything is different. So a religious war exists today in Physics, and that darn Drive is the experiment that changes everything. I'm trying to be open minded, the results from the E-M drive NASA tested are so tiny they may just be sloppy experiment. It may be a scam. It may not be. China is planning to fly one, and if it really works, there has to be a Reformation of Science. I am biased. I WANT it to work. I WANT aether to be real and Dark Matter to be an idea that didn't work out. But no matter how much I want something to be true, that doesn't make it so. Next Week, Chemistry and Religion. Can a DNA test tell you if someone will believe stupid stuff, and should we use that test to screen out politicians?  | ||
| Sifo |
Intelligent Design is not Science. Philosophy, sure. You tell me that the complexity of DNA or the fractal nature of a leaf or arterial system from a tiny bit of code proves, PROVES! that there is an Universal Architect, I may agree there is, but that's not proof, it's reasoning based on observation. Aristotle would slap you, if he had been an Experimentalist, instead of a Deep Thinker. ID at least as presented by Meyer isn't about fractals, arterial systems or tiny bits of code. I did also present it as just a theory, that isn't proof of anything. We've been over this in the past though. You might just enjoy the book. If nothing else, it would help you put aside your misinterpretations of his theory. Nothing worth beheading you over if you never read it though.  OTOH, PM me if you would like me to send you my copy. Just promise to send it back someday. I would enjoy your opinion of the actual book. Science may indeed someday Prove God. I'm pretty sure if God had wanted us to have proof, God would have made it more obvious. One theory that I was real sour on was a theory that our entire existence is nothing more than a simulation. I never really paid it much mind until one day I read a much better article about it than I had ever seen before. It was interesting how it can explain some paradoxes such as Shroeder's cat, or the two slit experiments. In the end, does it really matter if we are experiencing a "real" physical universe, or some sort of simulation? Is the creator of the universe any less real if the universe we experience is simulated? It's still not a theory I would tend to believe, but it is still a very interesting theory. For now, I'm filing warp drive right next to my cold fusion reactor. | ||
| Aesquire |
I agree on the warp drive.... You know there is such a thing as a photon drive? You make a big flashlight. It pushes. Yea! Trouble is it's like telepathy. It's real, but it's pretty darn useless. You need huge amounts of power to push a tiny bit. Huge. Enormous. Impractical. Just like Telepathy, it exists, ( but unlike telepathy, it's principals are understood ) but is not going to do you much good. Don't believe in telepathy? Fine. Won't hurt you a bit. No one outside of comic books and movies can read anyone's mind. No one can use non-existent mind control waves. It's a statistical phenomena that experiment has shown exists, even a technique to make use of it, but in the end it's slower than picking up a phone. It's slower than a telegraph. It's slower than smoke signals. It's even slower than ELF transmitters the size of a New Jersey county. The U.S. Navy investigated telepathy, because an communication system that cannot be jammed, that can work on a submarine hiding on the other side of the planet 500 feet deep, would be great. Turns out it's so slow the war is over before the message to shoot is received. A clever system to use a poorly understood phenomena... and useless. Now otoh, a system to bounce radio signals off the ionization tracks of meteors so a soldier in a foxhole can give a report to D.C. without a satellite, works great. They make it across the street from where I work. Doesn't work for submerged submarines though. | ||
| Aesquire |
I did also present it as just a theory, that isn't proof of anything. True, and I'll look him up. I don't dismiss Aristotle either, just don't think it's hard science. And I'm not an atheist, although I did do the cynical adolescent rejection of authority bit for a while. The one thing I doubt anyone disagrees with, is that large organizations, established Churches or car companies, are subject to Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html So even the best intended organizations become full of managers and the original intent get's lost. Then again, I could be wrong.  re: com gear... They've gone through so many changes in survivable communications since I last paid attention... I see they've shut down the Navy ELF stations, and have replaced some old stuff with new stuff. I know people that still work in a deep hole for the phone company. ( nothing sinister ) No mind control waves though. But I could wrong on that last one. It would explain a lot of idiots. (Message edited by aesquire on May 08, 2015) | ||
| Tankhead |
FTB: I really think that you are an intelligent person. I am sure that you touch many lives teaching bible study. I am happy for you. I am a teacher and teach an autistic class every week and have been teaching autistic children and children with Aspergers on and off in my classroom for 15 years..so I can sympathize with you. However """These aren't my opinions, these are documented, demonstrated characteristics of God and accounts of His interaction with man."" and also... "We know from OT and NT accounts that there are those who reject God and those who recognize him as the central authority in their lives. God is clear that there is no other way to Him but through Jesus Christ. " I don't think you can argue that the OT and the NT, the Koran or any other book that claims to be the word of GOD or from GOD in this argument because of my initial premise. But I realize this, unfortunately, was a losing battle. Have a great weekend everyone. PEACE | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Tank, I appreciate your faithful service. I appreciate folks like you who have made amazing progress with my son and given parts of him back to us. Thank you. Maybe I missed your premise somewhere along the way. Sorry to be inadvertently obtuse. I have no proof of the validity of a single word of the bible. I can point to parallel accounts documented in the historical texts of the neighbors of Israel and those who conquered it. What I can see and observe is that there is a way that seems right to a man but leads to darkness. There is also a way that urges man daily to operate contrary to his nature, to what "seems right". Forgiveness when bitterness and revenge feels more natural. Generosity when greed feels more natural. Compassion when indifference feels more natural. Striving for a better way to live. To create a better life for others. To bring some heaven to earth. "On Earth as it is in Heaven." | ||
| Two_seasons |
Aesquire said... "Doesn't work for submerged submarines though." But ELF does! Really enjoying the discussion. | ||
| Mackja |
The Christian understands or believes that because man is created in the image and likeness of God, that our nature is good. In the Genesis narrative we see that Adam and Eve where created perfect, without sin, did not have any conception of what sin is or what the results of sin are. This means greed, revenge, bitterness resulted from a act of the will, this act is classically known as the fall, rejection of Gods love. The Christian believes that because of this rejection sin became a reality, and that all evil that befalls man is a result from this act. Christ came to restore man's relationship with the Father, we are called to perfection, to be imitators of Him. Granted we fall short time and time again, but then again evil is still in the world. Is our true nature good, compassionate, giving, consoling, or is it, dark, careless, selfish, greedy, etc... For me the Christian premise is an enlightenment for man, to become something greater than self, and if we let darkness win and rule our lives man will be truly lost. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger." The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger, "What would you want to talk about?" "Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly. "Okay," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?" The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know sh**?" And then she went back to reading her book. | ||
| Aesquire |
I understand the differences in the pellets & patties..... but don't feel qualified to tell you the mind of a being that sows life among the stars. But that's just me. I also know about shinola. (Message edited by aesquire on May 09, 2015) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Why is wombat poop square? | ||
| Aesquire |
Because triangular would hurt too much? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How does square poop come from a round sphincter? | ||
| Sifo |
Very carefully. | ||
| Tankhead |
Hey all. It's my birthday!!!! I wanted to wish you all a happy day. Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists et al. Overall it's the fact that we're alive that is golden. I was born at 1:50 PM today 47 years ago and I have told all that I love them and thanked them for everything. So I will say this; thank you Blake and all badwebbers for all the sharing. GOD bless all and if you are atheist, I appreciate you and wish the best for you also. Have a great glorious weekend everybody (Message edited by tankhead on May 09, 2015) | ||
| Pwnzor |
You've got the same birthday as my friend Joe, who just left my house with his family after having celebrated his 50th year on earth. We're blessed to have a home and the means to provide a celebration for our friends. Have a great day everyone, this is a really good discussion we've got going here. | ||
| Johnod |
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God? Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC) | ||
| Blake |
Happy birthday Tankhead! Still Saturday here in central time.  | ||
| Blake |
Johnod, Your second conclusion doesn't follow, and you've conveniently neglected the parameter of free will that God bestowed upon us. You'd have to prove that creating contingent finite beings with free will but who never perpetrate evil is possible. Can you do that? | ||
| Blake |
Nice discussion. It's interesting that some find it troubling to accept that an omniscient, omnipotent creator could find a way to reveal his will to us. Have they really thought about that? C.S. Lewis speaks exceptionally well to such questions. What an amazing mind that man had. The atheist vs theist issue boils down to the necessary existence of a magical self-creating eternal universe/multiverse vs God. I never have believed in magic. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, From what I've been able to understand, the majority of Muslims relative to the islamists are much like the majority of Germans relative to the Nazis. No worse intolerance than any other says Wilson? Right, cause executing gays merely for being gay is no more intolerant than western society. Cause executing apostates from Islam is no more intolerant than the Methodist church. | ||
| Aesquire |
Can an omnipotent being make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? Nonsense question. How can a superior being allow evil if it is omnipotent and thus able to stop it? .. The classic answer is free will. If robots were wanted robots we would be. You can also ask why would "it" care? That logic often is used to state that it has no present influence or interest in Earthly affairs. Are we a Petri dish for a super scientist? Clock work wound up and see what happens? I don't think so.... you feel free. One view is that all religion, mythology, parables, are teaching stories to influence us to behave in that society. Obviously I have strong opinions that all societies are not equal, and thus have unequal opinions as to the morals, logic, & goodness. Influenced by early teaching.....or propaganda if you prefer. Everybody is influenced by that. Opinions? | ||
| Gaesati |
I think the argument comes down to Faith. One either has the gift or one does not. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
When it comes to candy, soda, junkfood, I am omnipotent. I know my kids want it. I know they will ask for it. I don't always give it to them. Why? Am I able but unwilling? Am I willing but unable? Could it be that my intentions toward my children extend beyond their immediate desires? If I gave my kids anything they wanted as often as they wanted, would that be a good thing? Would that create a healthy person? Conversely, if I always denied them anything no matter how much they wanted it, would that be a good thing? Would that create a healthy person? "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son." God's concern is more with who we will become as people than whether we are comfortable. In fact, God stated to the Jews that if they didn't turn back toward him, he would allow them to be conquered and enslaved. That is exactly what happened. God didn't allow them to become enslaved because He hated them. The evil in the world comes from the choices of individual men. Do I pick up this gun or not? Do I load the magazine or not? Do I carry this gun in my waistband or not? Do I engage in illegal activities or not? Do I use that gun in the commission of a homicide or not? These are personal choices. How would you have God to prevent them? | ||
| Sifo |
I think the argument comes down to Faith. One either has the gift or one does not. You are right about it coming down to faith. We all have the gift of faith however. One may have faith that God exists, or one may have faith that there is no God. Either way... It's faith. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't want God to hold me accountable for my actions or the actions of others but I want to hold God accountable for not stopping me from taking those actions. "If there was really a God, he wouldn't let me do bad things, but I don't want God telling me what to do." | ||
| Aesquire |
That sums up the illogic far better than a rational discussion of the nature of free will. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
The illusion of free will | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Really? An illusion? How is your free will curtailed? | ||
| Mackja |
http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/Phi losophers/Aquinas/aquinas_five_ways02.html Some food for thought! |
