| Author | Message | ||
     Tpoppa |
11,499 Oh my It begins. If dealers panic and start dumping these, they aren't going to re-order even if EBR manages to right the financial ship. The dealers are in survival mode and cutting losses & will be out of the EBR business. Prices won't recover either for new or used EBRs. EBR shot themselves in the foot by not keeping their dealers informed. (Message edited by tpoppa on April 17, 2015) | ||
| Buelliedan |
"EBR shot themselves in the foot by not keeping their dealers informed." They did with me that is for sure! | ||
| Henshao |
Don't get too antsy, I've been trolling cycletrader for the past week or so and those prices haven't come very far from where they were Tuesday. Other than the Coleman's in VA that was (to my amusement) still advertising the 18k price until today. They are my local dealer and I have no love lost with them. A little bit of me hopes they never sell a bike. Bet that 15.5k I offered them back when looks good now! | ||
| Sifo |
Good grief, some people cant go without talking about Democrats/Obama... How dare anyone suggest that the economy could possibly have anything to do with a business failure. The nerve! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Hero's stock is apparently taking a hit because of this news: http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-cm/h ero-motocorp-slips-nearly-5-in-two-sessions-115041 700491_1.html | ||
| Sifo |
Take a look at the market over all today. It's a bit of a blood bath over Germany not wanting to keep shoveling money into Greece. Seems I remember some discussions about Greece a while back. Some were telling us that things were fine. | ||
| Ruprecht |
Well, Buell could surely have benefited from a bit of that old Reagan protectionism, but I think neoliberalism and economic globalisation has moved things on a long way since the '80s. Someone was asking about sales numbers and trends, is there an American equivalent of THIS (LINK)? The Australian market is a little different to the US of course, with regional differences, pricing, volume and the licencing for beginners mandating bikes under 660cc. I'd be surprised if the trends aren't similar though. | ||
| Tankhead |
Flemington NJ Yamaha, Kawi, EBR EBR closeouts: 11,499.00 | ||
| Sifo |
Local dealer here is still advertising them at $16,999 for an RX and $14,999 for the SX. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Regarding my link about Hero's stock taking a ~5% loss, apparently because of the EBR announcement (but as Sifo pointed out there could be unrelated factors), someone just point this out to me: "Their [Hero's] market cap is something like $6 billion. A 5% stock hit is in the ballpark of $300 million . . . all because they're quibbling over $20 million debt." If Hero had a chance to prevent this, it sure seems like they shot themselves in the foot. | ||
| Sifo |
Just as their stock drop today didn't happen in a vacuum, I seriously doubt that closing EBR happened in a vacuum either. I'm sure there are many reasons, with different perspectives from the various players. A more important aspect from my point of view is what is their intention going forward. As I said previously, if they really let the employees go with out at least a nod that that they may be coming back soon isn't a very good sign. Still, I could be wrong. | ||
| Henshao |
It has been mentioned earlier and I can personally attest to this: Indians are merciless businessmen. If it is true they wanted the whole shebang (full ownership of EBR) then I say more power to Erik for the integrity of holding fast to his way or nothing. Hero would almost certainly have been worse than Harley-Davidson as an owner and I'm sure Erik would agree he is getting too old for that kind of nonsense. Ultimately the man, for whatever business mistakes might have been made, was trying to build American sportbikes and he had a lot more success than anyone in history. Alas his failures may make further attempts unpalatable by anyone besides Elon Musk but economy trends are cyclical. There will be a boom at some point and I hope we get our dream then. | ||
| Chipper6 |
Anyone in San Francisco bay area know why they didn't have a dealer in the city or south bay? I know there are a lot of fans in this area, but also lots of money. I don't think marketing should run companies but some engineers don't do well with those types of design considerations. If your going to sell high end devices you have to target the areas where they will carry your sales... | ||
| Hughlysses |
As long as we’re doing wild-ass speculation about the causes of EBR’s current predicament, here’s something I’ve been thinking about. 5 years ago, Indian auto (and tractor) maker Mahindra planned to import cheap, simple, small diesel pickups to the US. These trucks were similar in size and technical sophistication to early 70's Japanese pickups. A US dealer network was setup through a US importer, and quite a few dealers invested thousands of dollars to build Mahindra dealerships. The contract language between Mahindra and the importer said that Mahindra would do their best to make their trucks meet US regulations (EPA, DOT, etc.) and if they could, the trucks would be imported to the US. If Mahindra couldn't get the trucks to pass testing by July 30, 2010 (something like that), both parties could walk away from the deal. The importer said this language was added by Mahindra late in their contract negotiations with the understanding that Mahindra might find it was impossible or at least cost-prohibitive to modify their trucks sufficiently to meet US standards. If that happened, they wanted a way out of the contract, so the importer agreed. Well, Mahindra went through all the testing and their trucks passed well before the deadline, but they didn't submit the paperwork requesting the formal approval. When July 30 (whatever the date was) came with no approvals, Mahindra said "Oh well, our trucks have not gotten the approvals so the deal is off." It seems that the trucks met all the regulations but after emissions equipment was added, fuel mileage was much worse than promised (24 MPG vs ~30 MPG, and for a small pickup). Mahindra decided their trucks wouldn't be worth importing to the US. Mahindra deliberately chose not to file the US application papers so their trucks couldn't be approved and they were able to get out of the contract. The US distributor and the dealers were screwed. Here's one follow-up story on this debacle: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130318/RETAIL07/ 303189966/thwarted-mahindra-dealers-win-a-round I wonder if something similar didn't happen with EBR and Hero? At the RX introduction at the AIMExpo 2 years ago, it was said Hero models would be sold in the US through EBR dealers starting in 2014. Now we’re in 2015, and that still hasn’t happened. EBR dealers were saying last year that they had been told EBR engineers were concentrating their efforts on making Hero motorcycles suitable for import to the US. Perhaps the original plan was for EBR to design better bikes for Hero which could be imported to the US to provide a wider range of motorcycles at EBR dealers. What if Hero found their bikes would have to be completely redesigned, decided the US is not currently a viable market for their products, and canceled their plans to import bikes to the US for the foreseeable future? If EBR’s business plan was based on having these Hero models available for their dealers starting last year, EBR would be left in a bind with no lower end motorcycles to sell, and projected profits never occurred as a result. That could explain how EBR wound up where they are now. If Hero's decided they're not coming to the US, now that Hero's new bikes have been designed they may have no further interest in supporting EBR. Just some Friday afternoon thoughts near the end of a depressing week… | ||
| Henshao |
Or perhaps more cynically, Hero got what they needed from an engineering standpoint and bailed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Chris- I heard similar negative opinions about working with Indian firms from Swiss locomotive builder SLM (now DLM) ~10 years ago. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The second worst experience we had contracting with foreign manufacturers was with an Indian firm. They were more than happy to change the deal midstream. We used them for one season and went back to Peru. | ||
| Henshao |
It is a complex issue but I suspect the root of it is that there is a lot of poverty in India. Those that have attained some measure of success probably had to fight tooth and nail for it. And they are never far from those who are still struggling. And they probably resent the perceived wealthiness of Americans. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Hero has engineering agreements with multiple companies, not just EBR. A very likely scenario was the engineering contract between Hero/EBR expired and Hero decided not to renew. If Hero was not obligated to renew, and EBR knew the end of current contract was approaching, their #1 business objective needed to be to find other engineering contracts. A risk big enough to shut your doors needs to be mitigated. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/ news/two-wheelers/motorcycles/hero-motocorps-us-te ch-partner-erik-buell-racing-files-for-bankruptcy/ articleshow/46952124.cms | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
From the tone of that article, I'm leaning towards HERO pulling the plug. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Devin Battley commented on Erik's FB page, "As your first dealer, I am incredibly disappointed to hear your partnership with Hero Motorcycles left you high and dry. I guess they are not the hero I thought they would be." I wonder if he knows something we don't? | ||
| S1owner |
I have read most of the posts from the start. Heres my two cents -cruiser or sport bike I own one of each both equal in their own way - Polaris if the timing is right and the $$ is right would be an excellent venture plant is close to corperate. Because of their manufacturing power they can reduce cost huge just like Indian. ( I have connections into Polaris but stuff like that does not come out till its a done deal) - last there is a very small percentage of successful companies that have achieved this their first try many have gone through this type of bottoming out several times before achieving success. Can almost guarantee not one auto company of two or more wheels had full success the first or second time. - Hero gains everything from jumping on this opportunity and is the most likely outcome for new ownership although could be a sticky situation since already being invested. I wait patiently to here from Court on future happenings and hope that all effected by the closing come out ok!!!! | ||
| Buelliedan |
Unless he got a personal call from Erik I doubt he knows anything more than you do as the EBR dealers have not been told anything! Not even an e-mail telling us why they closed or what to do with our inventory. I have never seen a company that is closing down treat the dealers of their product so poorly | ||
| Henshao |
As I understand it, Devin Battley (of Battley Cycles, incidentally the main competitor to Coleman's, whom I have already decried in this thread) is at least somewhat closer to Erik than the average dealer, history going back to the initial deals with Harley. | ||
| Gobadgers |
Buelliedan, when you picked up the EBR dealership, did you have any idea about also carrying Hero motorcycles later? Was it mentioned? Would you have considered it? | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
With all due respect, Dan, there is no company. Are you expecting a personal call from EB because everyone else is down at the unemployment office. I doubt your concerns are their concerns. This is what happens when a company goes into receivership. All communication ceases except by the respective parties legal council. When a company runs out of money the process is very swift. The same will be true when the economy collapses. You will wake up one day and it will all be gone and lots of people will be standing around with confused looks on their faces. I know a few people that worked for Truland Systems, once the tenth largest electrical contractor in the U.S., and some received an email informing them not to show up to work. Other received no notification at all. Some had work vehicles and were given no instructions on what to do with them. When the end came it came swiftly and decisively and without warning. Yes, Devin Battley was the first Buell dealer and a founding EBR dealer. (Message edited by ferris von bueller on April 17, 2015) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
posted by Erik Buell on Facebook Thank you for the supportive posts, texts, and e-mails since the announcement that EBR has ceased operations. This is a difficult time, and your comments mean a great deal to me personally and also to the EBR team that has done such amazing work over the past few, intense years. No doubt, it was an incredible ride, feeling like the longest qualifying lap ever. And, then, just when we knew we were about to set an all-time record, we tossed it in the last corner… Keeping with racing analogies, now we need to get back on the track and look ahead remembering all the things we were doing right around so many turns. Unfortunately, in the end, we tried to do too much with too little funding, but it doesn't diminish the accomplishments. We introduced the world class American super bikes of 1190RS, 1190RX and 1190SX, while at the same time doing revolutionary work for Hero on the HX250R, Leap, SimplEcity, iON, RnT and many others, plus concepts never publicly seen. It was great EBR innovation and design, and introduced new technology to Hero and its suppliers to provide a real kick start for them. But in the end all of this simply overwhelmed us, and for that we are sorry and saddened. I want you to know that looking ahead my focus is 100% on helping the receiver best maximize the value from EBR to benefit all, and I will make every possible effort to get the new organization to where it can support the dealers and customers first, and then help find investment to get back to full throttle. Thank you for your support, it means a great deal. Please stay tuned - I cannot predict the future, but always believe the best is yet to come. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I see the 1190SX selling for $11,495 with no dealer network or replacement parts available or you can purchase a new Triumph Bonnieville for around $9,000. Which one would you purchase? | ||
| Buelliedan |
Ferris, Yes I do expect some kind of communication from the company. A simple e-mail blast to all dealers could have been sent out and answered a lot of questions that I have been getting almost hourly could it not? Right now the EBR dealers have no idea what we should be doing. Do we tell potential customers that EBR is done and never will return or do we say that it is just temporary and soon they will be back? What do we do with our inventory? As you have already started to see many EBR dealers are starting to sell their bikes at closeout prices so this is not a good situation. | ||
| Jon |
Erik, if you are reading this. Just make great tube frame bikes with a simple air cooled plant loaded with your unique features. The country is getting ready to become fascinated with American Flattrack again. There are LOTS of people young and old who would buy a reasonably priced piece of rude American muscle. And go after the sportster market. Start there. That's it from here. And you need to start smoking cigars again. They are delicious. |
