| Author | Message | ||
     Pwnzor |
But some of you are just jackasses. You dont own an EBR, you've got no skin in the game..and you have supported EBR with talk only, not your wallets. I supported Buell with my wallet, and was shit upon by the total lack of dealer support. The only reason I kept that bike past the first year is because I met Al from American Sport Bike ... without him, it would have been more of a tryst than a 5 year love affair. I watched with interest as $40,000 bikes were marketed, and again as barely-under $20,000 bikes were marketed, and again price-dropped to $14,500. ALL those prices are too high for a sport bike. I've spoken no ill words towards Erik, Buell, or EBR. I've watched to see if they would win any races, and the results have been weak at best. So, is it my prudent decisions to get more value for my hard earned dollars that make me a jackass? Or is it me telling you to get bent and piss off? I'll take the latter all day long. Footnote: I ride Kawasaki now. They're not even in MotoGP any more. I'm not running out to buy a Repsol replica just because Marquez dominates the circuit. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Another blurb on the closure, from an Indian site: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/ news/two-wheelers/motorcycles/hero-motocorps-us-te ch-partner-erik-buell-racing-files-for-bankruptcy/ articleshow/46952124.cms I thought this comment was interesting:
If true, I wonder what that means? With EBR in receivership, it would seem Hero either has to buy the whole company or take their share of the cash from the sale and walk away. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Or cut their losses and walk away. | ||
| Jb2 |
"They said that about GM and they are still in business" That's not quite so. GM survived on the backs of the American taxpayer. The government bought shares with stolen tax dollars and then resold those shares at a loss. During the government's reign they forced the closing of several brands, dealerships unfriendly to the Democratic party and restructured the management with non-automotive people. In a report yesterday it is also been found that GM may be exempt from liability for their faulty ignition switches under the terms of the restructuring. I hardly doubt Obama and company will step in to save EBR. GM falls under the new moniker of "too big to fail", EBR does not. I hate it for Erik and the employees, dealers, and owners but all we can do from here is watch from the sidelines. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I never really understood who EBRs key demographic was. Their marketing message is not clear. Are they marketing to club racers who don't care that the bike is not competitive in professional racing? Are they marketing to Badweb members who love to make excuses for slow sales & poorly run race teams? That's a REALLY small demo. If they get another chance to build a motorcycle it needs to be a commercial success not yet another niche bike. They really should ditch the V2 and ditch the ZTL. Build something people will actually buy! In the sportbike market I4s outsell V2s 20:1. The ZTL may have some subtle advantages, but it hasn't gained acceptance in the market. The vast majority of riders prefer to purchase sport bikes with dual front discs. Build something with with mass market appeal, or...well you know... | ||
| Nobuell |
The GM issue is worse than identified above. Because they did not go in to bankruptcy as the law requires, the government stole the assets from the GM Bond holders. The Bond holders were not given the protection or the chance to recoup their holdings that could have occurred during an orderly bankruptcy. | ||
| Ourdee |
My question is the Yahama has dominated the racing circuit the last couple of years, how many of you have went out and purchased a Yahama? I ride a Yamaha to work. The government bought shares with stolen tax dollars and then resold those shares at a loss. Like there is some other type of tax dollar. I find that very interesting. It was written to basically restructure debt with a clear eye to, and timelines for repayment, not to exceed 36 months. It specifically freezes the assessment of interest during the period of assessment and consolidation. Creditors are allowed to submit debts to the Trustee for inclusion in a payment plan. It also specifically bars the seizure of assets during this time. Bankruptcy (as I gather it) has a very negative connotation in most peoples minds. I don't blame those people for that. Bankruptcy has been used in the past by unscrupulous individuals as a means to live high on the hog and stick others with the bill. Erik is not one of those people. He is using a legal option that gives a business a little breathing room to work within to attempt paying off it's debt while not eliminating the chance of success or viability. I would consider the choice made to be the hard one and the high ground. This is not the easy way out. While we are all pondering what we would have done, I submit a simple thought (as that is what I'm good at producing) "Hero, playing the role of devil, is more than willing to acquire 100% of EBR. That would provide funds for all debt to be erased. That would once again in tomb Erik with compromise inducing bean counters. (I'm not stupid, just unlucky in thinking/no need to start claiming unbridled passion to be at the root of all this) Passion is what has given us all some of the best bikes we have ever rode. Myself, I have even had a few good cups of Kool-aid along the way. I'll believe it is over when the fat lady is done and Erik unplugs his guitar and gives it away. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Build something with with mass market appeal, or...well you know... Whether we think they built the "right" bikes or not, it's pretty easy to imagine how they wound up doing what they did. After the Buell closure, Erik had the rights to the Helicon V-2 plus a huge amount of engineering knowledge. The 1190RS was likely far easier to design than any alternative bike would have been as it was largely a refinement of the 1125. While EBR couldn't use the actual 1125 frame, suspension, and electronics designs, I'm sure the engineers that came over from Buell remembered a lot of the info that went into those designs, and they probably already had ideas for improving them. OK- next step is to make a cheaper version, the RX. First, convert the hand-built 1190 engine (which was being built from modified 1125's) into a mass-production engine to cut costs. Substitute Showa suspension for Ohlins. Plastic instead of carbon fiber bodywork. Again, a much easier engineering task than designing and tooling up for a new bike from scratch. I'd guess that their long-term plans were (are?) to design and build less-expensive models once they got the company self-sufficient. There's no way for us to know if designing and building a "mainstream" motorcycle (or whatever) was practicable with the resources EBR has had available up to this opint. | ||
| Tpoppa |
After the Buell closure, Erik had the rights to the Helicon V-2 plus a huge amount of engineering knowledge. The 1190RS was likely far easier to design than any alternative bike would have been as it was largely a refinement of the 1125. While EBR couldn't use the actual 1125 frame, suspension, and electronics designs, I'm sure the engineers that came over from Buell remembered a lot of the info that went into those designs, and they probably already had ideas for improving them. I totally get that. Using a modified Helicon was the path of least resistance to getting back on two wheels. But was it a sustainable, long term solution? After some much publicized stator issues, was the market really demanding another Helicon based motorcycle? By the time the RX was released, the long stroke V2 was pretty much obsolete for professional racing. It was fine for street use...so why bother racing it to advertise it's shortcomings on the track?!? I would imagine EBR had a longer term plan that involved other engines, but you need to remain financially viable each step of the way...or have guaranteed long term financing. There are no other options. Doing otherwise is irresponsible with huge financial risk. (Yes, I have owned and operated a business with long term success) I will add that I am very curious to see what rises from the ashes. (Message edited by tpoppa on April 17, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
And they didn't build the AX because the market is beyond saturated with amazing expensive Ulysses replacements right now, if you are looking for an amazing expensive Ulysses replacement. Pick a Triumph, a Ducatti, a KTM, a Yamaha, a Suzuki, or a Kawasaki. Heck, pick pretty much anything but a Honda, and if we are honest, an ST1300 is probably a pretty good Uly alternative too. Heck, many of those manufactures have a couple of bikes that are credible alternatives to an AX. The Hastur could have been a cool SV-650 type niche, but you don't make money in that kind of niche. Which is why they aren't making SV650's anymore. | ||
| Jon |
The old customer base by and large would not could not spend for the high priced bikes. Build purchasable bikes, move units, recapture the old voting block and worry about cycle world articles and reviews later. We were never in a position to financially support EBR. They might as well have been on Mars. | ||
| Midknyte |
>Which is why they aren't making SV650's anymore. ??? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are I think. The SV650 became the Gladius, was cut from the line for a year or two in the downturn, but is back. http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%20Lines/Cycles /Products/SFV650/2015/SFV650.aspx I'd be all over a Hastur! | ||
| Midknyte |
Is there any significance of this announcement happening a day after tax filing day (4/15) | ||
| Cyclonedon |
The 2006 Buell Ulysses was a expensive motorcycle for me at the time I purchased it but it was and has turned out to be the best purchase I've ever made! I'm now starting to focus on purchasing spare parts for it so I can continue to keep it running. There will never be an $18,000 motorcycle in my garage unless I just storing someone else's motorcycle! | ||
| Henshao |
The worst part is that the 12.5k pricing right now would have probably seen EBR's flying off the shelves | ||
| Discochris |
The issue with GM was less so GM itself, as it was the devastation that would have resulted to the spider web like supply chain had the company gone under. GM itself going under would have been unfortunate, but the domino effect in the US would have been catastrophic. I'm no fan of government bailouts, but this one made sense to me. Oh, and the GM bailout didn't start under Obama. It originated under Bush, and took place between the two adminstrations, and was largely bipartisan. | ||
| Sifo |
Again, we know very little about what actually happened and what players did what. What does concern me was that is sounds like the employees were let go with no notice, or a hopeful message that they will again have a home at EBR. That doesn't sound good to me at all. GM bailout didn't start under BO? You might want to reconsider that statement. Even BO takes full credit for it. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"They said that about GM and they are still in business" My comment was in response to Buewolf's comment, "I suspect the brand is irreparably damaged now and would have little value to a buyer." I was making no comparison in regards to bankruptcy. I'm simply saying people said at the time they would never purchase another GM car, yet, GM survives and thrives. No doubt GM's brand was damaged but when it comes to things like cars and motorcycles where emotion plays a big part in the purchase people are a a lot more forgiving then they would be for say, a washing machine. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I think some of you well-to-do folk don't realize how poor the world economy is doing. The middle class has dwindled and those that remain don't have the confidence to make luxury purchases. Factor in the cost of the bikes, young folk with college loans and mortgages or low-paying jobs and it's no surprise to me. I'd love to see some stats on bike sales over the years broken down into various categories to see exactly what the trends are. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Well to do or not, I wouldn't pay $18k for a sport bike. Nor would I pay $14.5k $12.5k would be the limit. I made the mistake of buying an overpriced Ducati, ONCE. Never to be repeated. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Confidence is low and has been for 6 years. Nothing much on the horizon to stem that tide. High end sport bikes are a luxury item. People are generally not spending on luxury items. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I will never own a motorcycle with a 6,000 mile valve adjustment interval. I ride far too many miles to have my motorcycle down for major service several times per year. | ||
| Pwnzor |
6,000 mile valve adjustment interval. Nobody made mention of that tidbit when I bought my Ducati either. WORST $16500 I ever spent in my life. | ||
| Henshao |
Wherefore art thou, hydraulic lifters | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Good grief, some people cant go without talking about Democrats/Obama... | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2015/Team+Hero+EBR +statement+following+EBR+closure Larry Pegram doesn't appear concerned. “There is obviously some restructuring and financial stuff going on in the USA | ||
| Henshao |
Larry and Niccolo are one out-of-stock part away from being unemployed. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Wherefore art thou, hydraulic lifters I won't own another one of those either. Not enough performance for may tastes. I can live with 12k intervals but prefer Honda's 16k, Yamaha's 26k or even some newer Ducati's 18k. 6k is unacceptable even on an easy to work on BMW Boxer twin with it's jugs out in the open air. | ||
| Pwnzor |
My Kawasaki has a 15k interval, and it's EASY. Even so, I pay $175 for a valve adjustment. | ||
| Thumper1203 |
http://m.cycletrader.com/dealers/Flemington-Yamaha -Kawasaki-Polaris-2978336/listing/2015-EBR-1190SX- 112946742 11,499 Oh my |
