| Author | Message | ||
     Rocket_in_uk |
And yet...the cop was justified in using deadly force. As I said. Toward a person willing to use a gun against a police officer. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
You lost me after the first rape, which wasn't actually a rape, and no harm came to any woman, or man. Yeah, that explains a lot. Go enjoy yourself. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
No? You continually skip over the part that got Brown shot. Rushing the cop the second time. I do? No matter how many times I tell you I don't? What's it gonna take fella?  Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
CONFIRMED – Officer Darren Wilson Did Know Mike Brown Was Suspect In Robbery, and Did See Stolen Cigars In His Hands Prior To Attempting Questioning Which suggests officer Wilson was stupid from the moment he came into contact with Brown. Leaving himself open to assault by someone who'd just strong-arm robbed a store. Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
What's it gonna take fella? Good question. I just quoted you where you skip right over that pesky little detail that got Brown shot. What is it going to take. Brown had the last chance to not get shot. Instead he rushed the cop. And yet...the cop was justified in using deadly force. As I said. Toward a person willing to use a gun against a police officer. As Brown had just tried to do. Mmmmmm... | ||
| Fb1 |
As I said. Toward a person willing to use a gun against a police officer. More old news:
Source, more: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/08/20/con firmed-officer-darren-wilson-badly-beaten-before-m ike-brown-shooting-punched-in-face-broken-eye-sock et-he-was-beaten-very-severely/ http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop- was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-say s-source/ (Message edited by fb1 on September 22, 2014) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I just quoted you where you skip right over that pesky little detail that got Brown shot. What is it going to take. Brown had the last chance to not get shot. Instead he rushed the cop. Let's try this one last time. Soon after assaulting police officer Wilson, Brown moved away. Quite how far Brown moved away appears to have been far enough for police officer Wilson to make a decision to confront Brown further. Evidenced by police officer Wilson leaving the safety of his police vehicle. It is known police officer Wilson was out of his vehicle when he shot Brown dead. Being out of his police vehicle would be a second confrontation if in further contact with Brown. Does a second contact not raise the question, could Brown's shooting have been avoided? The words written do not require "rushed", or approached, or similar. The possible events as I explained go far enough to show a second event likely happened. I couldn't say for certain if Brown rushed the officer, but accepting "rushed" as the adjective you use, such fits in with Brown being shot in the front, which seems to fit in with reports Brown had turned around to face officer Wilson and might well have been advancing on him. I didn't realise a bozo could pick the bones out of my words to conclude I'd missed a vital point supporting the debate I present. Which by the way, I didn't. It's just the way you read it, so your childish attempt to make it appear I change my mind for arguments sake won't wash. Nothing in this topic thus far has convinced me anyone yet has the facts in place. The only feasible alternative thus far is that of Daddio where he explains what appears to be one continuing event where Brown has not actually left officer Wilson and walked away but more than a step. As the cop is getting out of his G-ride, I connect with a nice right punch, hitting him in the eye, and knocking him back into to car. Man! I've never knocked someone out with one punch before, like in that 'knock-out game' I've seen on Youtube. Oh, no! The cop's only dazed, and he reaching for something on his waist! Gun? Taser? Radio? so I dive in on top of the cop to keep him from getting whatever he's trying to get, when "BANG," I mean, I've heard gunfire before, but never inside a car! Am I shot? Damn, my ears are ringing, I gotta step back. Oh, ok, I'm not hit, but WTF? The Po-Po is now getting out of the car, and he looks mad! Now he's yelling at me to get down on the ground, and my ears are still ringing, and he's really pissed off, but, man! my ears are still ringing and no white cop is gonna call me out my name, so to show him I will not be dissed, I face him, and tell him he ain't so tough without that badge and gun, and walk toward him, Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
“You may engage a threat with enough force that is reasonably necessary to defend against that danger,” My point being, had Brown been leaving officer Wilson (injured in his vehicle) the engagement had come to an end. Thus the use of enough (deadly in this case) force had passed. At least passed until officer Wilson reengaged with Brown. Rocket in England | ||
| Court |
>>>>At least passed until officer Wilson reengaged with Brown. Which . . . from best account currently available . . . was when Brown turned and charged the officer. Just not enough facts here yet. The autopsy has ruled out the "he had his back to the cop" silliness . . . we know Brown was no choir boy and, in fact, was a violent criminal with a record with offenses within the last 10 minutes before the cop encountered him. Not sure I can make a conclusion at this point . . but it damn sure looks like the kid was an out of control criminal who basically got what he had coming to him. If you are not smart enough to know better than to beat and taunt and officer with a gun . . .well, you probably need weeded from the DNA pool. | ||
| Iamike |
Damn Rocky, You make it sound like it's the officer's fault for confronting the perp. Isn't that a policeman's job? We've had two recent police killings in our town. One, a drunk was assaulting his wife then assaulted the cop, trying to gouge the cop's eyes out while both were on the ground. The other, an idiot kid started shooting into a group standing outside a bar. When the police showed up he was hiding behind a tree and then pointed the gun at the police. What blows me away is that in both cases people criticize the police. Both those idiots needed to be removed from the gene pool if they were that stupid. | ||
| Fb1 |
I was just being purposely obtuse to piss you off... Bingo. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I don't think ...in police matters...that there is such a thing as a "second confrontation" as you describe in this incident. Nothing came to "an end" until it was over. (as others in law enforcement have stated here) The incident was ongoing. But he could have choose different action during the incident...sure..., just as if Brown had been walking on the sidewalk... or if all cops had only rubber bullets... or Tasers this thread would not be. | ||
| Orman1649 |
“My point being, had Brown been leaving officer Wilson (injured in his vehicle) the engagement had come to an end. Thus the use of enough (deadly in this case) force had passed. At least passed until officer Wilson reengaged with Brown. “ This truly makes no sense at all. A police officer was assaulted and he is just supposed to shrug it off and go on his merry way? In my country, you assault a cop and you are going to have a weapon pulled on you 100% of the time. At that point you will either comply with the officers request to kiss the pavement or you will charge the officer and get shot/tased. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And there it is in a nutshell. And it wasn't just taking a swing at a cop then running, a shot had already probably already been fired by Brown during the fight. It was attempted murder at that point. (The cop didn't likely reach down and fire his gun through his cruiser floor as a warning, Brown was likely fighting hard enough for control of the gun that a shot was fired in the direction of the cop. If the cop wanted to just execute Brown and Brown was not trying for the gun at that time, Brown would have been easily executed right then and there at the car window). (Message edited by reepicheep on September 23, 2014) | ||
| Sifo |
It's funny to see the evolution of Rockets argument in this thread. It's clearly the work of a troll. He starts out by agreeing with Frederica that Brown was killed for walking in the middle of the road. He is also complaining about the folks who are supporting the cop "before the facts are known". This suggests that support for the cop is reasonable, if the facts come out as was suggested early on. This is proving to be the case. Of course rather than Rocket adjusting his position to fit the facts that are becoming solidified, he has used tortured logic to support his position that the cop was involved in a bad shooting. His mind was made up before he knew anything about this, and that won't be changed. He has even blamed people disagreeing with him on his being from a different country. He claims that this sort of thing could never have happened in England with their laws, but if it did, the cop would be convicted of murder. This has been proven wrong by the Mark Duggan shooting where a UK cop shot an unarmed thug who was simply trying to run from the cops. Rocket claims this to be completely different because the cops "thought" he had a gun. What they thought doesn't change the fact that they shot an unarmed thug, and the courts found it to be a valid shooting. Rocket is full of sh!t. His latest tactic of blaming the cop for pursuing a know felon who just finished with a failed attempt to kill a cop is absurd. I don't know what else you can call it when you assault an officer and go for his gun. You pretty much have to accept that he planed to use that gun against the cop. That's attempted murder of a cop, and Rocket says the prudent thing to do is let him run off. That's just not going to happen. Nothing is going to change the fact that when Brown decided to charge the cop, he gave up is right to life. The cop knowing that this was a possible outcome does nothing to change if it should have happened. Oddly, he supports the cops in the UK who followed Mark Duggan, fully expecting him to buy an illegal gun and confronted him only after they had belief that he was in possession of the gun. Could they not have foreseen that doing this might lead to having to shoot Duggan? Isn't that Rockets entire line of reasoning with the "second" event theory? Yet he supports the cops in the Duggan shooting, even after it was found that they shot an unarmed suspect. There is no logic at work here, or any principles involved. Nothing but a pathetic troll. | ||
| Sifo |
(The cop didn't likely reach down and fire his gun through his cruiser floor as a warning, Brown was likely fighting hard enough for control of the gun that a shot was fired in the direction of the cop. If the cop wanted to just execute Brown and Brown was not trying for the gun at that time, Brown would have been easily executed right then and there at the car window). Hard to speculate how that shot was fired. Just of offer a different perspective... Brown rushes the cop, both are going for control of the gun. Cop has control of the grip as the struggle continues. The cop could have either had an accidental discharge as a result of the struggle, or may have even made the decision to discharge the weapon in a somewhat safe direction. This would then allow him to keep the trigger pressed, keeping the gun in a safer condition should it get twisted so the muzzle is pointed toward himself, and would also allow using his trigger finger to aid his grip while struggling for control. Nothing but speculation there, and it really matters little to what happened after the initial struggle. I have yet to see any detailed account of that struggle yet. There will only be one persons story on those details, and he's not in a position to go public yet. Has this been released officially? | ||
| Reepicheep |
True, that could have been the case, but in a lot of ways it feels like a distinction without a difference. Once the cop feels the need to go for his gun, and you keep struggling with him, you are both fighting for your lives. If you were a criminal instigator of that confrontation, and the gun goes off as a result of the struggle, it seems like it becomes, what, attempted second degree murder at a minimum? | ||
| Sifo |
Whatever the exact details, it's not a situation where the right call is to just let the guy run away. You have to look at this a an attempt of lethal force by the thug. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Hey syphilis, where did I say I supported police in the Duggan shooting? Get YOUR facts right before making sweeping statements like that. I don't. As much as Duggan might have been in possession of a gun (which he threw out of the taxi moments before shot dead) the police EXECUTED Duggan. I do not support police EXECUTING anyone. Brown was executed as officer Wilson had a choice to leave him be, which might have kept Brown alive. This is how I see it and my opinion of this has not changed one bit you dumb illiterate idiot. The wider point of why I don't support officer Wilson's actions is to prevent police having the power to execute anyone. In the Brown case, if as I mentioned earlier there is a gap in time or a distance between Brown and the officer after the initial assault in the vehicle, then the officer takes it upon himself to suffer the consequences of his actions. In this case they ended with him having to shoot someone dead. Had he chosen to wait for assistance and not challenged Brown further (a second time) we wouldn't be talking about it here. Which makes me wonder. Why when two cops killed someone last week as Mike makes mention of, did these shootings not make the international news? Could it be that officer Wilson's shooting dead of Brown is NOT as clear cut as you'd like it? I think so. Perhaps because he took it upon himself to confront and execute. Rocket in England | ||
| Orman1649 |
Rocket, you are becoming quite hostile…is it because your argument holds no water? A crime was committed, Brown assaulted an officer of the law. From your argument, Wilson should have let him walk away and not attempted to detain him. By extension, does that mean any criminal can should be able to just walk away from a crime never to be punished? What if that assault on the officer was instead the rape/murder of your sister or mother? Should the perpetrator be able to just get away with it without fear of prosecution because he walked away or should an officer be able to pursue and attempt to detain the criminal? Police do not have the power to “execute anyone”. They do have the power to use lethal force if they feel their life is in jeopardy. A very large man charging at you after an altercation seconds before hand probably doesn’t mean he is excited to give you a hug, he probably wants to crush your skull. | ||
| Aesquire |
I have no opinion on the Duggan case as far as the shoot goes. I'd be inclined to say Rocket was wrong just to annoy him, but In the real world I don't have the information to make a fact based decision.. I can, however comment on the one, single article I have read, the one above. ( which is WHY I have no opinion ) The writer knows nothing about guns, forensics, or physics. His terminology used in the article is a combination of ignorance, deliberate emotional manipulation, and attempts to make him sound tough and knowledgeable. To begin... the gun had only one "bullet" he says. It's a cartridge, the bullet, powder and metallic case. He also says the gun had not been "racked" which is an attempt to sound like he's an expert. Probably read it in a spy novel. He probably has no clue what gets racked. And a quick check of the web shows it was a blank gun banned in England because it's too easy to convert to a "real one". On the forensics side, Few people can get a print from a sock, It's doubtful you can get DNA from one, especially after it's been thrown "21 feet" since unless you bleed on it, the only DNA would be from dead skin cells, and it's only on CSI tv shows that a drop of sweat on a living room carpet is found by a CSI team, ( and sweat has no DNA anyway, it's salt water and trace element pheromones ) and in one day a recreation of the killer's face is produced by simulating the entire adult from one cell.... Maybe after we have space ships with A.I.'s that can twist space and jump to Dune... but not in the early 21st century. To physics.... IF I had a gun in my hand and you shot me, any muscle reaction I had to toss a gun all of 7 freaking yards would be invisible while your eyes were re-adapting to darkness after the muzzle flash. I know, personally, close magicians than can throw a playing card across a stage with a motion you can't see in bright stage lights at close range. What freaked out cops can see after a strobe light flashed in front of their faces is... nothing. Besides, I bet they all blinked. So the article proves nothing except the writer is a pompous ignorant biased fool. He may be expert on the royal families affairs, but I doubt he knows what a Kukri is or why wearing one on your belt, unearned, in front of some people, is unwise. He would, I bet, faint at the sight of one being drawn in his presence. So, in the Duggan case, and the Brown case, I don't KNOW the facts because I can't allow myself to believe any highly biased account and know enough not to believe anything CNN or the other alphabet channels say, especially including AP. Does it seem to you the police in England "execute" people a lot? Rocket's current argument, that all would be well if the assaulter just was allowed to run away is certainly not the reasoning used by anyone in Law Enforcement for the last 14 thousand years. I bet an order of Fish & Chips that it's not SOP in England. That is not to imply that no policeman, anywhere, has ever chosen to be judge & jury and execute someone. It certainly has happened, and will happen again. It should be, and often is, punished severely, whenever it happens, not matter how justified it seems. I commend to you the words of LTC (RET) Dave Grossman http://mwkworks.com/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. I highly recommend the above essay to all. Especially the Sheepdogs among us. Bless you. | ||
| Aesquire |
BTW, I have been called on this site a pedantic prick. I know what that means. I don't deny it, I've done just that for a living. When you want the night sights on your attack helicopter to work, the fuse on your artillery shell not to detonate in the tube, the chemical plant not to explode, or your neutrino detector to detect if the Sun is on, you WANT a pedantic prick to have made, machined, and inspected the vital part. I'm well aware of the joys of being the most hated guy in the factory, the one that tells the boss he has to have everyone make the darn parts again, since they are wrong. And I've known the fun of being the guy pushing, over and over on a chest waiting for the ambulance, with sweat pouring off me and the pain in back, legs and arms growing by the second... and will not stop because a pedantic prick would not, ever, or the child will die. And may be dead now. But that doesn't matter. Read Grossman's essay, and you may understand. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
They do have the power to use lethal force if they feel their life is in jeopardy. And if Brown was leaving the scene, officer Wilson's life could not be in jeopardy. Agreed? A very large man charging at you after an altercation seconds before hand probably doesn’t mean he is excited to give you a hug, he probably wants to crush your skull. Which Brown might not have been going to do had officer Wilson remained in the safety of his vehicle rather than relying on his gun in an attempt to bring Brown to justice, thus further aggravating Brown, or even enticing him to a confrontation. Such an attempt could be seen as officer Wilson dishing out his own justice. In other words, EXECUTING Brown. Isn't this the reason the story made international news in the first place? Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Wait, what? The police executed Duggan? That just happen in the UK. Rocket has told us so. Rocket is also telling us that the cop should have simply let Brown run away. Then what? You eventually have to confront him, assuming you ever even get the chance again. In the UK, where we have been told it takes at least two cops to shoot somebody (  ) they were able to choose how and when to confront Duggan, and it still ended in violence. That's the problem with confronting thugs. It often results in violence. That's not automatically the cops fault. In fact, I would venture a guess that it's seldom the cops fault. I'm still open to new evidence in this case and cross examination of what has been made public, but based on what's been made public so far, the cop is not at fault for Brown's demise. He was an idiot who chose to rush at a cop who had his gun pointed at him. That's far from an execution, it's simple self defense and most likely saved untold bad events that this thug would have done in the future. At least Rocket has come to grips with there being something he sees common between the Duggan and Brown shootings. In his warped little mind, neither one is justified. It's a start, but I wouldn't expect it to last. Troll. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
This truly makes no sense at all. A police officer was assaulted and he is just supposed to shrug it off and go on his merry way? No he is supposed to call for assistance to ARREST his assailant. Not provoke the situation further by pointing a gun at him. More so when Brown is likely high on drugs. He is young dumb and full of cum also. It's highly unlikely he would make a rational decision, which an experienced cop who's just suffered a beating (an unusual occurrence in itself in these circumstances) at the hands of this guy, you would expect to recognise. So why would your years of experience as a cop tell you to further confront him? Surely you must know this might end up with you having to use that lethal force you're entitled to. Whilst it seems the common view is Brown deserved what he got, I don't support this view, nor the taking of a life in any circumstance where life could have been preserved, which I believe is the case here. The wider implication being, police have the right to shoot people when they see fit. That is not how it is supposed to be. Only if life is in jeopardy wasn't it you said? Wilson's was not, until he further challenged Brown. Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Wilson's was not, until he further challenged Brown. Or, to state it more accurately, Brown's life wasn't in jeopardy until he challenged Wilson. Some are just far too dense to admit that. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. So if officer Wilson is the sheepdog, what the f**K was he doing killing sheep Brown? More so when he could have let him escape only to get him back in the pen later like all good sheepdogs NEVER fail to do. Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
So if officer Wilson is the sheepdog, what the f**K was he doing killing sheep Brown?  Is it possible for anyone to make this idiot understand the simplest of things? I have doubts. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Syphilis, please don't be so emotionaL. Calm yourself down man Rocket in England | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach." |
