The plane didn't explode until it hit the ground. It wasn't destroyed by the SAM, just crippled. It could have flown many miles from the site of the strike prior to augering in, so the video would not have shown a SAM trail.
The phone conversation shown by the Ukranians should be treated with a grain of salt until it can be independently confirmed.
Unfortunately, the Russians now have the black box from the plane, so a key piece of reliable data may now be tainted as well.
If I were the Russians, and knew that plane was shot down by somebody I am supporting, I'd get that black box in my country ASAP, which is exactly what they did. If I thought I had no part of it, I'd get neutral observers to accompany that box at every moment in my country, or just send the black box to a reliable neutral third country.
The black box won't tell us much. There will be voice recordings of the flight crew sure, but they may not have seen the SAM, or even knew what was happening. They certainly wouldn't know who had shot at them. It might give us the plane's location at the moment of impact but that won't tell us what happened either. It's not like the SAM battery crew was in contact with the plane prior to taking the shot.
Why would Ukraine troops be shooting at aircraft at 33000 feet? What airline or troop carriers do the separatists have .... that the Ukraine military would be shooting at? Was there an immediate need for that type of missle defense system in that area??
Clear to me, it was either a highly unlikely huge mistake by Ukraine Military or exactly what it seems to most folks... Idiot Russian Separatists with confiscated equipment from a military base that was taken over.
Now that the Russians have the black boxes, I wonder if they will end up missing or damaged beyond repair? Not that there would be any evidence in them. (maybe?)
Maybe,.... but that's too stupidly obvious. (do they make as good a vodka in Ukraine as Russia does?) Do you think all those involved in this... are historically literate?
Do you think all those involved in this... are historically literate?
NO. They just think YOU and everyone else is illiterate.
I'm glad some here prove that wrong.
Even Rocket got the Archduke reference!
The Death of Ferdinand triggered a series of entangled alliances, cynical power plays, and a few "harmless, just to show who's boss" artillery barrages across obscure border rivers..... and it snowballed into WW1.
The fact that the separatists laid claim to downing a Ukrainian military jet right after this happened, and deleted that claim as soon as it was found to be civilian seals it pretty well for me. Add to that, they did shoot down a military plane at altitude just days earlier. It seems pretty obvious that they misidentified the target and now want to claim they didn't do it. It's not an act of terrorism. It's a very stupid mistake in a war zone.
There is the question of where did they get the missiles capable of shooting down a jet at altitude, and how did they get the knowledge to use that system. I do kind of question some things I've heard that it takes years to learn to use such a system. We may provide that sort of training to our military, but much of that training is to prevent this sort of OOPS events. Clearly they weren't that well trained.
It's just like when the scoundrel George W. Bush and Dickhead Cheney did 9/11 on the den of liberalism which is New York city so that they could attack Iraq and avenge Bush Senior!
They thought they had shot a Ukrainian plane: Live news report from Putin's propaganda TV channel "LifeNews" right after the accident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuX6rEOjyqA "... to present the most important events in Russia and the World. The rebels report that they managed to shoot down another transport plane of the Ukrainian Air Forces. It happened near the town of Torez in self proclaimed Donetsk Republic around 5pm Moscow time. AN-26 was flying above the town and got hit by a missile. Explosion could be heard, the plane started to fall. Black smoke was seen in the sky. AN-26 fell in Shahta area. Town Torez is close to Sneznoy, in the territory controled by the rebels."
A conversation of a relatively well-know rebel field commander and former Russian GRU intelligence officer, Igor Bezler ("Bes") with his subordinates (or superiors?), "Greek" with "Major", etc.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
Bezler: Just shot down the plane, done by the "Minelayer" group, it crashed close to Enakievo. Geranin: Pilots? Where are pilots? B: We went to search for them and take some photos of the downed plane. It's smoking... G: How many minutes ago? B: Approx 30 minutes ago. (Another conversation starts) Grek: Yes Major! Major: So, this was the "Chernuchin group" who shot the plane. From the Chernuchino blockpost. Kossaks that stay at Chernuchino. The plane fell apart in the air. In the Petropalovskaya mine area. First 200 [code for dead body], we found our first 200. Civilian. Grek: So what do you have? Major: In short, a 100% civilian aircraft. G: A lot of people there? M: F#ck! Debris was falling to backyards. G: What was the plane? M: I don't know yet. I have not been close to the main part. I am looking where first bodies started falling. Debris of brackets, chairs, bodies. G: Any weapons? M: Nothing at all. Civillian things, medicines, towels, toilet paper. G: Some IDs? M: Yes, Indonesian student, from the Thompson University. etc...
The funny part was the troll was correct when he commented on her smarts at the moment.
This has become typical MSNBC. They have scripts and wouldn't notice if they were doing Macbeth or Hair instead of News. ( that's not fair. They Would notice if they did Macbeth. The words would be too hard. )
You're the one who keeps telling us that history doesn't apply.
Then gets certain parts of it wrong, because some "nonfiction" book you read was mislabeled from the "political propaganda" dept.
In context I thought it a mildly mocking joke you'd like.
BTW, by sticking to "nonfiction" books, you miss an awful lot. Some of that Nonfiction you cite is not very accurate, and in some cases outright lies. Other's have been quite insightful.
Yes, Sturgeon's law applies, 95% of everything is crap. There are some gems in the outhouse if you look.
Take Tom Clancy's books, ( not the co-authored book mill crap series, but the Ryan books, or Red Storm Rising ) the use of airliners as weapons, biowar, hacking to make economic warfare, rogue intel ops, many of the bad things this century were "predicted" or in some cases, stolen out of the books to become reality.
If we had access to Mohamed Atta's diary I bet his inspiration for the 9/11 attacks was Tom Clancy. ( Clancy, of course got the idea from buddies in the intel field. ) Don't know what inspired the yet to be caught Anthrax killer, and we haven't had the Stock Market crash on cue to destroy the economy, ( that we know of ) but other aspects of terrorism, war, and conflict were laid out in fictional form long before real people died.
Keep in mind that Fiction is not prediction. Science Fiction has often been thought to be predictive, but it's not. "The Man Who Sold The Moon" isn't how we got to the Moon in reality. We never build a giant accelerator rail up a mountain ( Pikes Peak, in the Novel ) and it ended up being a Government Job, not a Private Enterprise. But Staged liquid fueled rockets were used, weight was such a consideration that the Apollo crews left nearly all the scientific gear on the Moon, to make room for a bucket of rocks, and there were people who protested the whole thing complaining we should "spend the money here". ( like we cram cash into a can and shoot it into space..... Every penny goes to an Earth company that pays employees, and makes things. )
Sure, James Bond is a total joke as a secret agent, ( though, hilariously, the Matt Helm novels are spot on for tradecraft, unlike the movies ) Jack Ryan is improbably good, and if I never heard of "Twilight" and angst filled teen Vampires my life would be immeasurably better. ( You say he's 200 years old? and he falls for a Virgin 16 year old because she's "pure"? If that was ME there'd be a word to describe that. )
And of course most Zombie/werewolf/alien books yearning to be bad movies just suck.
Then again, if I'd been subjected to a lifetime of Dr. Who, I might not appreciate fiction either. Compared to the latest Companion, who wants to read Catcher In the Rye?
Patrick, I didn't say history doesn't apply. Just that I get sick of certain parts of history being repeated here.
And whilst I did get your "mildly mocking joke" it's in poor taste when implying I'm somewhat lacking in brain matter.
As for books, there's always room for a great read. Lies and propaganda not amongst them. Or at least not as I'm aware. And I've read enough airport fiction to know how that format works. Clancy, Koontz, Grisham, or J.K. Rowling, or anyone else. Is not the greater truth, fiction is mostly pretty obvious. I think so.
For me it has to be an interesting good read. Nathaniel Philbrick's In The Heart Of The Sea - the story of whaleship Essex. Bauby's, The Diving Bell And The Butterfly, written memoirs from him blinking one eye. Airport fiction has little to no place with me I'm afraid.
I just got finished reading Glantz From the Don to the Dniepr. Soviet operations Dec42-Aug43. It's amazing how many times in history the same places just seem to be in harms way it's sad really. There is no doubt the separatists did this perhaps an overzealous poorly trained individual or individuals are responsible but does there have to be more than that to start a war?
As an insufferable prick I have to agree that the bulk of books sold at the supermarket or airport lack quality. Romance novels alone show that formula s&m sells. Captured by pirates, lost family estate, jungle adventure. ....whatever. the heroine will be tied up and the men will have mighty thews leading to heaving bosoms and euphemisms galore......
Some authors actually research their history and slide it in to the mad-libs formula. They can't sell historical books in today's market.........but a sex drenched bondage panty wetter sells like coffee. Lady friends have told me some authors are great with historical accuracy while ripping bodices with the best.
As to the shoot down of the Malaysian airliner. Ukraine has a motive to fake evidence after shooting it down to get more military aid from EU. The trouble is the Russians and their minions have the evidence and are not letting others see it.
That points at Russia as the bad guys. It is likely that the shootdown and mass murder was a mistake instead if deliberate.
Knowing nothing about who/what/why/how the airliner was downed I would go with the,"Oh,S**t" theory. Wrong equipment, wrong operator,wrong decision,wrong time pretty much covers the incident. Just don't expect either/any side to not attempt to exploit the tragedy to suit their own.agenda. We are all cursed to live in interesting times.
Super irony after 60 odd years of Mutual Assured Destruction, if the Last War started because of a mistake and lies on twitter.
Entangling treaties and super rich men fighting for turf, shades of WW1. National & Other Socialism at it's Imperial best.... WW2. Both together you have Clone Wars..... Or 2014.
