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Macbuell
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This story is really sad and another example of a no knock warrant gone wrong:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/30/us/georgia-toddler-i njured-stun-grenade-drug-raid/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Airbozo
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's also another example of dirt bags putting their child in harms way. If you knew there was drug activity going on why in hell would you let your child stay there...

Most of the blame lies on the parents for this one.
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Xdigitalx
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This story is really sad and another example of a no knock warrant Day in the life of a Meth Dealer gone wrong.
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Macbuell
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Agreed. Most of the responsibility lies with the parents but if you are going to use a no knock warrant you better due your homework. The story locally is that the family car was parked right in front of the house with car seats and toys in it.

I guess I just don't like the exponential increase in no knock warrants.
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm all in favor of setting aside a few thousand square miles of government land where those wishing to do drugs can go live. It would simultaneously take care of the problem of crack heads panhandling on every corner and overzealous cops who think they are Rambo. The war on drugs has been lost and all it's done is to empower the government to further erode our freedoms.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The story they don't tell is how many times they have the wrong address for no knock warrants.
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Sifo
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ah, yes... "the rape victim shouldn't have worn such a short skirt" defense.
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Airbozo
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Ah, yes... "the rape victim shouldn't have worn such a short skirt" defense."

Not even similar...

Your saying that the cops should never bust into a place because someone _may_ get hurt, possibly the drug dealers baby? Then drug dealers would hang pacifiers and diapers on the porch so the cops won't break in with force. Great idea.

No knock warrants are for specific purposes and like everything else in this world can be abused, no argument there. Mistakes are even made from time to time (again, like everything else in this world).

I'm really sorry the baby got hurt, but to say the cops bear more blame than the parents is just so wrong.

They had the right address this time, but the wrong plan.
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Sifo
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blaming the parents is pretty insane. They guy they were after wasn't even there, and there's no mention of the "guards" that may or may not have been armed being there either. There are far safer ways of dealing with a situation like this. No knock raids are becoming more and more common place, often with results worse than this. Bottom line is that the cops deployed a weapon that has put an innocent child into a coma. They are just as responsible as I would be if I were to pull a gun and accidentally shoot an innocent. I would even say more so, given the fact that they were able to plan this encounter, and obviously had zero clue what they were charging into. We are becoming a police state.
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Strokizator
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm all in favor of setting aside a few thousand square miles of government land where those wishing to do drugs can go live.
They are trying it on a smaller scale. Maybe you've heard of it - a place called Detroit.
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

LOL Strok. Coming soon to a theatre near you - "Escape from Detroit"
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Kenm123t
Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hmm looks like we need to install G meters on all openings along with proper door closers. Then install a band of anti tank sized Claymores around the house.

We need to bring back Détente don't attack my home and family and I will not destroy your civil servants.
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Aesquire
Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 02:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As I've commented elsewhere, The War On Drugs wasn't supposed to work like this.

Tricky Dick, despite his many flaws, got this one right. ( yep, it goes back to Nixon ) At the time the N. Vietnamese were pushing heroin on US troops in a policy of narcoterrorism. ( stoned guards are easier to evade, too. )

The War On Drugs was supposed to be one of treatment, concentrating on the returning vets, and education.

Subsequent administrations took a 180 on that concept.

Now it's an excuse for jack booted thugs, and a source of massive profits for evil men.

As an example.... a nearby county got a federal grant for Million$ to fly over everyone's house at night with infrared cameras to search for people growing pot. The same county had a yearly drug rehab budget of $2000.00. How rational is that? My buddy who lives there used to go out on his back porch every night when the plane flew over and light a cigar. With a Propane Weed Burner. When I was visiting I would join him. I'm mildly curious what I look like in IR with a cigar in one hand flipping the bird straight up.

As to the poor baby hit by a grenade during a drug raid? DAmn.

Worse, the grenade did NOT "put the bay in a coma". The doctors did. That is in hopes he won't die of shock from the wounds and burns.

Between the "progressive" treatment of criminals, who often seem to have more rights than law abiding citizens, and the loss of freedom of the law abiding, in the interest of "fighting crime" our society is in a bad place.

We must protect the rights of the arrested. Innocent until proven Guilty. ( except of course, for the IRS ) Balancing that against protecting the rights of Citizens to not have their homes invaded by armed men, their property stolen & destroyed, by the police, is going to take same actual dialog. And some real changes.
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Hammer71
Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It wasn't a drug dealers kid it was a family members who had been staying there a few days after their home was destroyed by a fire. Its a good bet that they didnt know what this person was into as most don't advertise to family.

Piss poor planning on the P.D.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2014 - 07:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You'd think... just MAYBE... that the cops had been at least WATCHING the place for a day or two.

Then, maybe they would KNOW who was inside.

But they weren't, and they didn't.
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Paint_shaker
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Very sad situation anyway you look at it.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cops often point to the "drugs they took off the street" as justification for their actions.

Those drugs were literally NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.
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Macbuell
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The whole war on drugs is literally nothing in the grand scheme of things. All it has done is flood our prisons with non-violent drug offenders and cost the taxes payers billions of dollars without any gain.
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mac has a point. In engineering, even the social kind, if one fix is not working, you need to revisit your original supposition to see why. My thought is to go after illegal drug addictions using economics and medical intervention, not law enforcement, as the primary tool. I would make the SALE illegal and prosecutable, with strong penalties, not the mere possession. Those convicted of selling would forfeit all of their "personal use narcotics in their possession, including their homes and vehicles" as additional penalty to jail time. The confiscated product could be flooded back into the users community by rehab clinics, in an effort to attract addicts to at least be documented, monitored, and hopefully eventually steered into an actual rehab program. A free, single use amount provided once daily would undercut the profit motive in the drug trade. Under the ACA everybody already has access to a doctor (at least in theory). That doctor could easily hand out doses to positive tested users. This might end up with a short spike in new users, and addicts, but with the supply side's profit motive undercut, the supply chain might slow to a trickle from just the larger sources, because of the reduced cost/risk to benefit ratio. (Only volume suppliers could make enough profit on margin) I'm an expert in NONE of these fields, but it would be an interesting trial in one or two cities with the worst drug related violence just to see if it might work.
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Malott442
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would love to comment on this, but no matter what I say, I'm going to be wrong.

Wait, that was probably wrong too.

That sentence was wrong as well.

Aw hell, I'm going to clean the garage.
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Aesquire
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let me get this straight.

You want to change the rules so the police can arrest a dealer and steal all his property. ( House, car, boat? ) Maybe even convict him, later.

Then under Obamacare you take away the profit motive by making us pay for other's recreational drugs? ( but not heart medicine, since we won't be able to afford that.... besides, sick people are just too expensive to let live )

You figure that will cut out the small time distribution chain leaving only the most evil, and powerful drug lords?

All I see for results..... is the rich get richer, ( and the most evil rich aside from pimps) ..... make corruption in the police dept worse.... saddle the taxpayer with buying the drugs for the addicts, at incredibly higher prices. Black market prices will also be much higher & Since many addicts will not trust govt. smack as being good, crime will rise to pay for the more expensive drugs.

You've made Boss Hog, and the Drug Cartels rich, ripped off everyone else.

I suggest a rethink.

Let's see how Colorado does with it's approach, if anyone there remembers to keep track.
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Aesquire
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not saying the system should stay the same..... heck no!

If you want to let out all the drug crime guys in prison ( not convicted of violent crime ) and fill them back up with crooked IRS, VA, and other government criminals, I'd listen.

Enforce the border better to keep out criminal trespassers and smuggled drugs? Good.

Legalize everything that can be grown domestically, and tax imports ( like Cocaine ) to pay for the drug rehab programs? Umm... maybe?

going to take a bit of thought.

Look at Colorado. I never anticipated that the Obama administration ( Social Justice Dept. ) would forbid banks to take pot money. Any idiot could have predicted that making it a cash economy would lead to robbery, murder, violence, and..... oh yeah, not paying taxes!
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Anyone recall Hamsterdam from HBO's The Wire?
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Aesquire, Re-reading, I see "including their homes and vehicles" was poorly written. I should have been clearer. I did not mean the car the boat, or the house, but rather the "recreational" drugs they contained, although under current law, property of that type is often forfeited (not stolen) upon due process convictions. This scenario would be no different. The only cost to support this would be investigation, search, seizure, and prosecution, which I think we can all agree we are already paying for.
Regarding the cost in distribution through Obamacare, the public wouldn't be paying for the drugs, just the confirmation the recipient is actually a test positive user. The only gain there is every "fix" is an opportunity for intervention. I think costs may be offset by the savings in prison space. Addicts in rehab can't be more expensive than inmates. Addict's won't need to commit crimes to pay for drugs if freebies artificially depress the value. The Feds use subsidies and controls to manipulate the price of everything from milk to ethanol. I 'm not taking a position on subsidies here, I'm only saying it's nothing that hasn't already been done.

Drug cartels are already rich, To control the flow of a river, the first thing you do is cut a channel to divert the flow, then build your dams. My proposal is simply a diversion channel in attempt to control the flow mechanism. It doesn't really change the number of producers, consumers, or even the supply quantities. My thought was this might significantly reduce the drug related violence equivalent of bank erosion and flooding in our cities.

Lastly, you're absolutely right! A "rethink" is exactly what is needed. .

I told you I was an expert on none of these issues.
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not sure of the laws in effect today, but back in the '90s I knew someone who was caught growing pot on his farm. Myself and many I knew had done business with him, and had no clue about this at all. I was told that his business partner talked him into doing this as a cash infusion for the business they were in. Turned out to be a real bad choice. He not only did a mandatory 5 years in a federal pen with no parole, but they took his farm, farming equipment, and house. He was lucky enough to be able to keep his lovely wife. Each plant, regardless of size was considered a kilo of pot. When you are caught in the distribution game, they can take anything and everything associated with that distribution.

Also regarding the idea that so many people are in jail based on minor drug offenses, it simply isn't true. I posted some links on that for Aesquire a while back. I don't remember the thread it was in. Basically it comes down to a lot of people in jail for bigger offenses, also have minor drug offenses. They would still be in jail without the drug offenses though. It's a false claim.
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Look at the Delorean Cocaine bust. It's a stupid Hollywood idea you can save a business by doing criminal acts.

Me, I'm for erasing the stupid drug laws, releasing the folk in jail for possession, ( do I still go to hell for a Friday Burger eaten before the Pope changed the rules? ) and trying to tax some of the recreational drugs.

OTOH I'm not really for people doing Meth and Coca products, and I see some moral problems to be addressed.

It might be worth it to eliminate the protected profits of the cartels and politicians who get rich on Prohibition.

Didn't Bill Clinton rent the Lincoln Bedroom to a Columbian Drug Lord in exchange for a hefty bribe? You know that wasn't a "please make pot legal" bribe. That was a "please keep my family super rich by keeping Cocaine illegal" bribe.

Mnscrounger has the right idea, just needs refinement.

Sifo, even the "possession only" release would leave plenty of room in prison for the Real Criminals.. Like the VA officials who committed massive fraud to get un earned bonuses, let people die, and lied about it. They belong in Prison.

And if it's only 4 guys in the whole country in the Federal system that I'd let go, there's still enough room for us to cram the VA guys, the IRS guys, the Heads of the IRS, the NSA, and the occupants of the White house into the open cells. Just push harder.

It's the New Normal.
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Rick_a
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Like most tragedies in life it was a culmination of bad circumstances.

There isn't a single point of blame for such a SNAFU.
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Correct.
In no order.
It's considered OK to send a SWAT team in with battering rams, machine guns, grenades, and gas in a neighborhood, to arrest someone, burn down the block ( Philly anyone? ) and shoot up a bunch of innocent bystanders.

It's the number one cash business in the US, since you can't use cash in other venues, by stupid law. ( My old favorite way to buy a car was to put piles of cash on the desk of the dealer, and start putting them back in my pocket with every time he "needed to talk to the boss". )

Police get to steal property in a drug bust, even if there is no conviction or even prosecution.

Weapons not in the hands of the Police are considered mental disorder scary justification for violence and immunity to persecution.

When things like this, the baby having a grenade tossed in it's crib, by accident, happen, the neighbors may just decide that the police are a greater threat than the gang bangers.

Then you have real problems. We already have the local "clergy" as part of the "don't talk to cops" movement, which makes their jobs harder.

Especially when the biggest murder problem locally is drug turf. # 2 seems to be high school girls with steak knives fighting over boys.
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sifo, even the "possession only" release would leave plenty of room in prison for the Real Criminals..

Well, there's possession and there's POSSESSION. The guy I knew went to jail for possession. He was in possession of acres of pot at the time. Like I said in our previous discussion on this matter, it's kind of hard to find hard data on who's in jail for what regarding drugs. There's plenty of BS statistics floating around on pro-drug sites though. Don't get me wrong. Our legal system could use a lot of tuning. I would like to see that tuning done based on facts though. Few on either side want to hear facts. That's a FACT!
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2014 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't want ta hear it. ..... la la la la la la
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