| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
It seems like we are so close to the "tipping point", when electric motorcycles will be able to outperform internal combustion engine motorcycles, in virtually every way. Except, IMHO, range. The new graphene or carbon nanotube super capacitors may solve that if only by recharging fast enough that a 100 mile range isn't that bad a problem. But not this year. 40 minute charge times are a bit long, but if it's 10? If you can charge your bike in the time it takes you to whiz, drink a cup of coffee and munch a truck stop burrito, that should be acceptable to most people. Opinion? | ||
| Firemanjim |
Torquehd, I got to be a test pilot for the Mission Motors bike at the drag strip-- they were after some e-bike record and I got it for them. Bike was a whole lot of fun but expensive!!! And a bunch of our Buell group got to go hang out with Abe Askenazi at Zero last year and test ride all there bikes. Again, a bunch of fun. My wife lusts after them. | ||
| Sifo |
I have Li-ion portable tools, they sat for about a year in my garage while I was overseas, and only one was on the charger. There was no noticeable change in performance when I came back and used them again. I'm willing to bet that your tools don't have an on-board computer that keeps drawing on the battery while not in use. I knew Tesla had problems with bricking. I didn't know Fiskers bricked themselves too. Enough amps to recharge in 10 minutes? I dare you to lick the terminals! There are some real hazards with working with that much amperage. Can it be made fool proof enough. I've seen some extremely talented fools. Even so, graphene technology hasn't left the lab yet. I know... I know... We're on the verge of it all happening. | ||
| Strokizator |
Aesquire, some of your knocks against electric vehicles are based on what-ifs. What if the breaker trips, what if you're an idiot and used a 100ft extension cord? Here's a couple of other what-ifs. What if there was a world crisis (like an Arab oil embargo) and you could only get gas after standing in line for several hours and then only on odd or even days and then only purchase 10 gallons? What if there were design problems with your car and the ignition switch could fail and there were reported fatalities because of it? What if your car experienced unintended acceleration (I still don't believe that one)? What if all kinds of stuff? As far as the guilt-free fake leather and holier-than-thou-attitudes goes, you may want to check with your local dealer to find out just who is getting these cars. THe majority are not Ed Begley Jr. clones out to save the planet and show everyone else how much they care. Most are just out to save a buck. Local businesses are leasing several for their fleets. It makes fiscal sense or they wouldn't do it. I think that marketing departments pushing the "green" aspects of the cars are probably turning off more consumers than they attract. Right now gasoline is over $4.00/gal here. The sun still shines for free on my solar panels. You've got a lot of legitimate complaints but some of them are baseless. Look, I don't ever want to NOT have a gasoline powered motorcycle, chain saw, 4x4 truck or ATV but battery powered vehicles are not a passing fad that will fade into obscurity. Things will improve. | ||
| Airbozo |
BTW: Brammo makes at least one model with a 6 speed transmission, the Empulse. http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/ I can say this now that my friend does not work there anymore, but I got the chance to ride the Empulse R, and 3 of the Zero cycle bikes (BTW: Zero's CTO came from Buell). I was impresses with all of them, but still felt something was missing. Comparing them to my S3T was not fair due to the bias I have though. If the cost was more reasonable, I would really look into the Brammo. Give Zero a couple of years and I may look at them as well. There has been rumors that one of the electric motorcycle companies is going in with Tesla on their "new technology" battery plant. Zero is also working (or already has) a model with swappable battery packs. | ||
| Aesquire |
Strokizator, you mistake my attitude. First the "holier than thou" sales push WAS for Leonardo Dicaprio types. The Fisker was a rich man's toy sold on the ideas of "social responsibility" and frankly, showing up the neighbors Bentley. Ego marketing, and very well done. The Prius too has an element of Holier than Thou, but not as strident. My Father is on his second, and loves them. My choice for a daily driver is different, and based on different desires. I wanted a sports ( well, Sporty ) car that can carry a suit of armor and got 100mpg. I had to compromise on the mileage, since nothing on the market will do that for me. In a car with climate control. I am with you on the unintended acceleration issue. Audi has determined that it was driver error. as has Toyota. There are some that say the Ergos on the Audi made it easier to drive through the back of your garage while you think you are pressing the brake pedal. And thus blame Audi. They may have a point, But I'm skeptical. The Arab artificial gas crisis? Lived through it, didn't like it, still don't like the Prez in charge at the time. Pretty sure it'll happen again. But so what? You still have to burn fuel to charge your electric thing. It won't be at your house, unless you have a home generator or fuel cell, but it's getting burned somewhere, and every time you turn one kind of power into another, you lose some. Coal heats water, steam turns turbine, turbine turns generator, every step up and down in voltage all the way to your charger. losses every step. Not a complaint, just the facts. It's still way cheaper for you to charge a Nissan Leaf than to fill my VW TDI. The number of calories consumed to run either one 100 miles? Good question. I think the VW might win. Does not change the out of pocket at pump expense. The hidden costs may be quite different. You've got a lot of legitimate complaints but some of them are baseless. Honestly I don't see what YOU think I'm complaining about. Yes.. I mock the bad design on the Fisker. The darn thing costs more than my house and commits suicide. I Don't think the Leaf does that. And if it does I doubt Nissan will make YOU pay ANOTHER $40,000 to get your car running. I completely skipped the taxpayer money to a rich guy to build a car in a foreign country. That's political, not how practical the car is. And.... What if the breaker trips, what if you're an idiot and used a 100ft extension cord? Not hypotheticals. Both actually happened. The "idiot with the 100 ft extension cord" was a presumably intelligent guy who was having his new garage with the multi-thousand dollar charger built for his new luxury sport ego car. The only safe place he had to park while construction was ongoing was away from the trucks & machinery, so he ran a cord out from his house. The losses in the cord were enough that the onboard luxury computer drained the battery to death anyway. Then the car had to be dragged with locked wheels onto a flat bed to go back. Not to the Dealer, the Factory. That's just bad engineering. If your Ford did that you'd scream. I'm not against electric cars. I looked at the Volt, and it's not what I want. I'm just realistic. Until batteries get better, and they are, range is an issue. That's why hybrids are selling better than electrics. Fleet sales are, as of today, subsidized by YOU and me with taxes. Simply because electric cars are not a good bargain, for many people. For others, if your needs line up, that's great! That Mission bike has 2 strikes that keep me from wanting it. Riding position, and price. The Range isn't that big a deal since it has enough for me for most of my riding. But I want a garage to put my Cyclone in, and in that competition for my money, the Mission loses. And I cannot emphasize this enough. If you want mass use of electric cars, you need to build more generating capacity. Need to. Simple math. Every Kwh equivalent you save by not burning a gallon of gas has to be produced by power plants to run your electric car. I question the end result in energy consumption, but I'm not against you riding a Mission, driving a Leaf, or even buying a super luxury toy with prehistoric plants to remind you how wealthy you are. Enjoy. | ||
| Torquehd |
I'm willing to bet that your tools don't have an on-board computer that keeps drawing on the battery while not in use. Master switch. Solved. Enough amps to recharge in 10 minutes? I dare you to lick the terminals! Why on earth? Do you make a habit of sticking your tongue in electric sockets? Additionally, I think a large percentage of Americans would be happy with a commuter vehicle they could plug in overnight. And keep the petroleum-powered vehicle for longer trips. Right now gasoline is over $4.00/gal here. The sun still shines for free on my solar panels. This is another area with a potentially bright future. In the future, independent power grids are likely to become more prominent. Granted, the government will find some way to get their hands in your pocket. They'll start charging you for the amount of sun that shines on your property, and the amount of wind that blows above your head. At least, as longs as Democrats hold office. I looked at the Volt, and it's not what I want. I'm just realistic. I'm right there with you, that's why I drive a quad cab, long bed, lifted diesel pickup. It takes care of all my needs. Someday, I hope to know enough about electric vehicles to be able to make retrofit systems that will substantially increase the MPG/MPG-E of conventional vehicles. Firemanjim, I'd love to hear more details about your experience. Did you get pictures? | ||
| Sifo |
Why on earth? Do you make a habit of sticking your tongue in electric sockets? Me? No. But I will hold your beer! Additionally, I think a large percentage of Americans would be happy with a commuter vehicle they could plug in overnight. And keep the petroleum-powered vehicle for longer trips. It's a nice thought, until you start to think about things like, the additional garages space to keep it in, the additional insurance cost, and simply the additional cost of another vehicle. Especially a vehicle with high priced items to make it go. It might make sense to come families where one can be a strict commuter car and the other to cover all needs. I guarantee you wont be happy when you walk out one morning and realize that when you came home last night and had your hands full of whatever you had to bring into the house, and you forgot to go back out to plug it in because the dog was bouncing off the walls, your kid wanted to show you something, and your phone was ringing. That's the big problem, it's not just a quick stop at the corner gas station. It's a long plug in period, even with an expensive, purpose built charging station. The big problem is that you can get most of those same benefits with a cheaper gas commuter car that doesn't have the electric draw backs. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I actually pretty much did that once. Long story. If somebody says "no, don't worry, that's just a speaker wire" when you ask them about the wire coming down through the drop ceiling... trust but verify is a good rule of thumb. Shortly after I discovered that while phone leads only have low voltages on them in general, they actually spike up to a pretty stout voltage when somebody calls you. Shortly after that I stopped stripping wires with my teeth...  | ||
| Firemanjim |
Try googling Mission Motors drag race or some such, it used to be on the website but could not find it last I looked. It was like being a Moto-GP racer, had a separate Nascar garage for pit, a huge team of engineers would swarm the bike after every run, had a cooler for me as this was mid summer, got to go to front of queue every time I wanted to run, and after every run they listened to everything I said about launch etc and made changes to bike. Hardest thing was getting used to no clutch or shift levers! Ran a 10.50 at 125 IIRC, about par for my 750 with swingarm and airshifter. A bit down on top speed but good sixty foot. | ||
| Court |
>>>>they actually spike up to a pretty stout voltage when somebody calls you. I learned that "90V DC" lesson while striping the insulation off with my teeth. I was 8. The lesson remains clear as a bell in my database of things to not do. | ||
| Ezblast |
Sifu - a CZ could do the same job at a 10th the price, just as new tech keeps bringing the price down and the idea of availability on the top of folks mind. Ebikes are getting real popular in the Bay area. EZ | ||
| Torquehd |
a CZ? | ||
| Blake |
Carjacking? | ||
| Torquehd |
anyone smart on electric motors? These axial flux motors from GKN seem like they have a much higher power density than conventional electric motors. Here's an example, the AF140 (all metric measurements) (this is one of their smaller motors) Specifications Type PM Synchronous - Axial Flux Maximum Speed 5000 rpm Nominal Torque 220 Nm Peak Torque (for up to 60s) 400 Nm Nominal Output Power 75 kW Peak Output Power(for up to 60s) 167.5 kW Peak Efficiency 96.5% Dimensions 115.2 mm (L) x 380 mm (D) at 40 kg http://www.gkn.com/driveline/our-solutions/edrive- systems/eMachines/Pages/default.aspx I'm not smart on electric motors, so I don't know how much voltage/current these things use, I'm just judging by the size and weight of the motors in relation to the amount of power/tq they put out. I assume, if you put one of these in a motorcycle, you'd have a serious performer. If your battery and controller could support it. Also, I found a thread on endless-sphere where a guy took two hub motors apart, stripped the wires, mated the stators together, rewound it with thicker wire, and ended up with a much more efficient rpm/v production. Based on that, I assume that a power efficient, hot-rod motor would also have a very good range, as long as you stay out of the throttle. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It would be like an XB12 with a "turbo button" power wise. Looks like 3 phase power feed though. I suppose you can work that out electrically, but the controller could get expensive. Any idea of price? | ||
| Reepicheep |
15" by 4". The size rocks! | ||
| Torquehd |
how do you know it's 3 phase (i'm still trying to learn)? i don't know enough about electric motors, but looking at the numbers, this should be more like an 1190rx with a turbo button... 200 ft lbs tq max, and 223 hp (for up to 60 seconds)... i understand those are rated numbers, not actual. Even with parasitic loss associated with drivetrain, I'm guessing the numbers would be significantly higher than any XB??? The controllers are big and expensive. That's apparently another drawback of EV motors. But, that much power, and the motor only weighs 88 lbs. Too bad batteries weigh so much, but it will probably only be a handful of years before batteries put out the same amount of power with half the weight. to quote Cityxslicker, "wait and see, watch and learn". Or so I hope in this case. | ||
| Sifo |
Also, I found a thread on endless-sphere where a guy took two hub motors apart, stripped the wires, mated the stators together, rewound it with thicker wire, and ended up with a much more efficient rpm/v production. Based on that, I assume that a power efficient, hot-rod motor would also have a very good range, as long as you stay out of the throttle. Far from an electric motor expert, but I do know that one way to get more power is to do more windings. Of course you are limited by the space on the armature, and you can only reduce wire size so much before the amperage melts the thing. Going to bigger wire is good in that you have less resistance, but means less windings, so less power. They probably should have simply started with a smaller motor. If it were that easy to get a "power efficient, hot-rod motor" they would simply make them that way. | ||
| Reepicheep |
By my highly sophisticated engineering analysis that precisely noted there are "three thingy's" on the top to hook cords into instead of "two thingy's" to hook cords into.  | ||
| Torquehd |
I should have seen the "three thingys". I thought you had perceived that based on something you read in the description. Looks like the price of that AF140 motor is a little shy of $10,000. Controllers are equally expensive. Why, I have no idea. It seems like it should just be a glorified rheostat that distributes electricity through relays to three outputs. On the bright side, I know that there are heavier, more expensive electric motors putting out less power. | ||
| Aesquire |
In brushless motors the controller feeds timed pulses through different coils..... Or something like that. ( or is that with a different design? I forget... ) Expect the Controller for the Mission to cost more than the motor. As I said, the 160 ponies make it quite useful in airplanes..... and cars. My VW only has 140! ( butt loads of torque, though. 236 ft. lbs. IIRC ) With a sophisticated traction control system, like on the Mission, I could see 2 motors driving the rear wheels on a car or van, and having respectable performance. In the electric airplane field, they talk about over power for brief periods dictated by the thermals. I doubt you can pull 160 continuous out of that motor, but you don't have to in normal vehicle operation. I presume there are temp sensors scattered though that thing to keep it from melting down. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The controller couldn't use relays, the inductive leap switching them on and off would pretty much destroy the contacts in short order. It would have to be a solid state (maybe MOSFET) type controller. Mosfets are pretty remarkable, and one the size of your thumb can easily switch 80 amps on and off. But even 80 amps for a 40 volt battery is still only 4.5 HP. So you need some serious high power design, and the capacitors and other components can get pretty expensive. That motor also looks to be liquid cooled, so the thingys could be cooling lines as well... Neat motor! | ||
| Ezblast |
CZ - cubic zirconia - lol - they make teeth out of them now as well as implants. EZ | ||
| Torquehd |
The guys on the electric motorcycle forum kept using the acronym FET, now I get it. Thanks Reep. I think I read somewhere that most EV motors these days are three phase. So you could probably build a commuter bike, with no @ss behind it, for less than $10,000. But once you start getting into the range of a bike that performs like a real motorcycle and not a scooter, you're looking at over $20 grand, just to build your own. That sucks. | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Ed. I was thinking, "what's he gonna do with a Czech pistol"? | ||
| Fast1075 |
Variable frequency motors and drives have been around a long time. They are becoming highly developed and more reliable. The motors are in fact three phase. Pulse width modulated. Most controllers use hall effect sensors imbedded in the motor windings for feedback to the controller. The better controllers are programmable to change operational characteristics. The DC motors for some applications use standard commutation with carbon brushes. Speed control is stepped by contactors in a way similar to part winding motors. Inferior and crude compared to the ECM motor. (but less expensive). If you have a new air conditioner in your home, chances are at least one of the motors is an ECM drive motor. If you have a state of the art air conditioner, it may have a variable capacity ECM drive compressor. | ||
| Aesquire |
Even with liquid cooling you can overheat. There were a bunch of engine failures in a mini-helicopter ( the Mini-500 ) using a normally fairly reliable liquid cooled engine. ( Rotax 582. Yes, That Rotax ) The Mini-500 had some other problems, but it's biggest one is that it had just enough power. Usually. Underpowered/marginal helicopters aren't very safe if for no other reason than you have to run the engine flat out, a lot......especially at take off, Where an engine failure can leave you with not enough room or energy to land safely. The problem was finally traced to shock cooling of the cylinders when the thermostat opened up while the engine was at full throttle, and suddenly cooled the cylinders, seizing the hot expanded pistons in a contracting bore. The "cure" was to actually just warm the darn thing up so that the coolant was warm & the thermostat open. The engines had EGT & CHT gauges, but hot enough up top didn't mean warmed up. The company is out of business. ( some owners have re-engined with a turbine.... $$$$$$$ but it is supposed to solve the problem. ) | ||
| Hootowl |
FYI - FET = field effect transistor. There's no PN junction (OK, smarty pants, there is, but the drain current doesn't pass through it). | ||
| Reepicheep |
And the two reasons FET's are so good for high power is actually pretty simple... first is that they don't need to dissipate as much heat, second is that they are simpler to control. Power is heat. The equation for power is Volts times Amps. On a normal transistor, even when fully "on", you get a .6 voltage drop across each "P-N" junction. A typical transistor is P-N-P. So when completely "on" and trying to act like a closed relay, you are still dropping 1.2 volts (two .6 volt junctions). So 10 amps of current, times that 1.2 volt drop, means you are trying to do something with 12 watts of heat pouring out of that transistor. For perspective, that's a small soldering iron, or a Polly grip heater on high. The poor little transistor is doomed unless you put a massive heat sink on it (and a heat sink can only take you so far). But a MOSFET can have very close to a 0 volt forward drop when turned on. Say .1 volts. So now your 10 amp current through a .1 volt forward drop MOSFET is 1 watt. Which is like a flashlight bulb. No problem, easy peasy, runs nice and cool. The other advantage of MOSFET is potentially very high "gains". The typical "gain" of a transistor is like 80... so if you put 1 millamp through the base, you would throttle 80 milliamps through the main valve. A gain of 80 sounds like a lot, but it isn't really, and it creates all sorts of problems with your control circuity that now has to be fairly high power just on it's own. Or you have to start using transistors to step up power just to control your transistor, so parts counts go up. Stop baiting me Hootowl! |
