| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
Just so I have it right........The O got you twice the pay? Because You didn't build that. History shows that when the Unions have helped bring about "fundamental change" they get absorbed. Perhaps some of the very wealthy Union Leaders will get seats at the table. The rank & file get the shaft. (What good is $20 hr. When bread is $30? ) What do you think happens to the Occupy kids when they are no longer needed? Who would keep around the tools of revolution once they rule? History says they get sent for re-education. How many Viet Cong do you think sit on the politburo in Hanoi? (I would reference Russia but that history isn't in the union handbook ) | ||
| Fredfast |
"No one goes to jail, no one is held accountable, I surly won't gamble, I would rather gamble on the pension still being around when (and that is a BIG when) and if I retire..." Smart move. | ||
| Fredfast |
"I am also an I.B.E.W. member and I see many, probably most, my Union brothers and sisters with amazing benefits many with 7 figure 401K. For the record, my union 401K returned 34% last year." So what's your point? You've benefitted from being a union member. You're sons are successful. So what? So is mine. He's in the financial sector. In the manufacturing/construction sector, I believe unionizing is beneficial. | ||
| Fredfast |
"I am also a Professor at an Ivy League university". You've said that before. No wonder you're so stuffy. By the way, I'm not impressed. | ||
| Blake |
Because the mega-unions have done so well for the employees of GM and Chrysler. All one need do to understand the unavoidable effect of corrupt/big labor is to look at Detroit, Michigan. Or a video of purple shirts SEIU thugs assaulting Americans who disagree with their marxist agenda. I happen to support union organization, just not on the mega scale, just like I support organized religion, just not on a mega scale. I like my labor organization like I prefer my church, organized locally, be holding only to the local members and unable to exploit or coerce money from said members, and especially from non-members. "Card Check" ought to be all anyone need understand to see the danger and corruption rife in big labor. It's nothing but a blatant attempt to have union thuggery endorsed and legalized by the federal govt. | ||
| Sifo |
But I am an old guy with a pension, at one time I had an offer from my employer to "Buy Out" my pension for a 401, and I declined, one of the managers did go with it and lost millions when the stock market collapsed shortly thereafter. My wife doesn't even look at her 401 statements knowing full well that some "Expert" is expertly handling the monies entrusted to them (IE: losing her a$$) No one goes to jail, no one is held accountable, I surly won't gamble, I would rather gamble on the pension still being around when (and that is a BIG when) and if I retire... I'm curious, who do you feel should be going to jail? Certainly there are cases of financial fraud where people have gone to jail in recent years. Was the manager you knew who lost millions in a company that was involved in fraud? Sounds like he just lost due to market conditions. Here's the problem with so many pensions. They claim to guarantee what is not guaranteed. In fact, it's come out recently that many of the pensions for government workers are based on ridiculous estimates of market returns, i.e., there is no real expectation that they can deliver when the time comes. It's these unfunded liabilities that are crippling governments at all levels. In the private sector they call that a ponzi scheme and people go to jail. In government, those who made the initial promise are long gone, collecting their own pensions, leaving empty coffers for the new management to deal with when payouts need to be made. The bottom line is that if you want a guaranteed pension, you had better make sure that it is 100% funded as it's promised, and that it's invested in guaranteed investment vehicles. Your wife may not be happy looking at her 401K statement, but at least she knows where she's at. I'm willing to bet that your "guaranteed" pension is dependent on the same sort of financial experts, but do you have any clue if the funds are there to pay what has been promised? That's what we are seeing in so many places now, in the government and private sectors, the promise from 40 years ago is coming due, and they have no way to pay for it other than stealing from the current generation. That was a huge factor in the failing of Detroit auto makers. I have friends and family who work for AT&T who are seeing it happen. AT&T has a multi-tier employment now where the new workers are getting their pay cut to a fraction of what it used to be to pay for retirees, and they are also finding the promise of retirement benefits being cut, because it's now clear that they have a ponzi scheme for a contract. Yes, someone should to to jail for that. I wonder if we would agree on who should be doing jail time though. | ||
| Fredfast |
The person who stole money from my unions pension fund is in jail. His name is Madoff. | ||
| Reindog |
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| Sifo |
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| Ducbsa |
From http://pjmedia.com/ronradosh/2014/02/15/why-the-te nnessee-volkswagen-workers-voted-against-the-uaw/? singlepage=true "When it comes to wages, it turns out that at the Southern plant, a starting worker earns $19.50 an hour without a union, while his counterpart working in Michigan earns only $15.50 an hour." | ||
| Fredfast |
The downfall of the American auto industry can be attributed more to the quality of the product rather than the union contracts. And I also don't attribute the inferior product to the unions. The recession was the final blow. The industry was given a second chance (due to the federal government) and have rebounded with concessions from the unions. The product has improved significantly. I consider this a success story. | ||
| Reindog |
Obama sayeth, "Forward, comrades!". Here is Bill Whittle's latest Afterburner, "Destination, Russia". | ||
| Reindog |
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| Reindog |
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| Sifo |
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| Fredfast |
"When it comes to wages, it turns out that at the Southern plant, a starting worker earns $19.50 an hour without a union, while his counterpart working in Michigan earns only $15.50 an hour." That is incorrect. Workers at the southern plant make about the same as lower tier workers in the Detroit plants and $9 less than upper tier workers in Detroit. - courtesy of NY Times | ||
| Ducbsa |
The taxpayers lost billions on the GM bailout and the bondholders were screwed in violation of the law. Nice gift to Obama's contributors. | ||
| Aesquire |
Seriously, I don't think it was "the quality of the product" as a sole issue. The "downfall of the US auto industry" begins after WW2 when Japanese industry was rebuilt by, well, us. In particular it was Walter Deming, whose concepts of efficient manufacture were initially ignored in the US and embraced by the Japanese, who had the "luxury" of rebuilding from scratch. ( B-29's and firestorms will do that ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming The US, with it's set ways of making stuff, didn't catch up until the 1980's. I have actually heard the owner of a machine shop say "It was good enough for Grand Dad, it was good enough for Dad, it's good enough for me." His shop was bought by a conglomerate. I studied under one of Deming's disciples and he had just done to China, what Deming did to Japan. Just In Time manufacture, Statistical Process Control, and the management structure with feedback to tell the bosses what the plant was actually doing. ( also Flexible Manufacturing, and a host of other buzzwords ) He warned US that we had nothing to worry about anymore from Japan, that their lifetime employment model was breaking down, and their labor costs were going up. ( and their population was graying ) China, OTOH was hungry, willing to learn new ways, had no existing manufacturing stuff to get rid of, so was in the same position as Japan was in 1946, of having a destroyed economy with no where to go but up. The difference is, China destroyed themselves, and they still are ruled by brutal, murderous dictators. They didn't get the period with a Viceroy pointing them to a better future, like Japan. Now, the corruption is much more lucrative, and petty things like laws, the environment, or human life are just an obstacle in the path of the Leadership getting rich, so they ignore them. But I digress. The other factors of the decline of the US auto business are domestic demand for bigger and better cars, competing with government regulations to smaller crappier more expensive ones. Gas Crisis, ( artificial, Jimmie Carter ) gas crisis, ( Gulf Wars, GHW Bush, GW Bush ) gas crisis, ( pander to greenies, Clinton, Obama ) push for smaller car with better mileage. It takes time to get a new care tested and to market, so when there is a gas crunch, the show rooms are full of Impalas, and when the price eases, the show rooms are full of Chevettes. Every time Detroit, ( or Osaka, or Wolfsburg ) comes up with a nice, efficient car people actually like, ( Honda CRX ) the folk in DC make new rules to make that car illegal. And the mileage harder to get. Side impact beams adding over 100 lbs to a light car make a difference. Plus the structural changes to keep the side impact beams from becoming death hammers in their own right... you HAVE to redesign the car. Then we get to the REAL human reasons. Car company management, bean counters, Robert McNamara, (&^&^$%*Sec Def #*^Vietnam%$^%#&* ) types, take over, and have no idea what a real American drives or wants. ( sound like another company you know of? ) Being bean counters they also negotiated with the Unions for benefits and wages that were not sustainable, based on idiot predictions and a lack of understanding of real car buyers. Once upon a time, there were 4 giants that dominated the local landscape. Xerox is still there, but weak, Kodak was looted and is now one of those places you read about where they went bankrupt, screwed the retirees, gave management multi million dollar bonuses, and were allowed to reissue common stock even though the company has nothing material left to sell. ( and a pollution legacy that will affect people for generations ) Bauch & Lomb was looted, milked and absorbed, and Delco was bought by a French company and.... need I say more? Now the College is the biggest Employer. That's what happened to the US car industry. | ||
| Reindog |
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| Court |
Fred you are funny but your facts are not facts . . just folly and fancy. Like it or not . . . . you're out of touch with reality The UAW took a royal ass-kicking in Tennessee. Which, in part, explains why "The UAW has lost 75 percent of its membership since 1979. That’s a lot of momentum to overcome—in Chattanooga, or anywhere else." Interesting that even with the company supporting the union the employees soundly (as has been the case in MOST NLRB petitions the last 15 years) rejected the union. Keen minds will recall that it was but a few years ago that the unions attempted to organize the workers at Buell. I wrote a piece that was fairly widely circulated stating the employees position. The union was not only tossed out of organizing meetings, they eventually withdrew their petition in embarrassment. Unions . . . at this point in time . . are in decline and disarray. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-17/ua ws-devastating-defeat-at-a-tennessee-volkswagen-pl ant-four-blunt-points | ||
| Sifo |
I saw an interview this morning with one of the auto worker at the VW plant. He said that voting in the union would have cost him about $3.00 per hour at his level. He didn't say what level he was at though. Funny thing, this is exactly not what FredFrank claims was in the NYT, which he provided no link for BTW.   And BTW, be careful of what you demand from your government. It's kind of like the three wishes from a genie thing. It probably won't be what you had in mind.  | ||
| Sifo |
This just leaves me shaking my head. http://e2.ma/message/3p4lh/7k38fe | ||
| Sifo |
How does this end? The United States of Decline | ||
| Geedee |
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| Ducbsa |
King Barry, fighter of inequality: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/02/after_ decrying_inequality_obama_golfs_at_personal_course _of_mega-billionaire.html | ||
| Sifo |
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| Hootowl |
"To be a good businessman, you have to make money. And there's nothing wrong with making money, especially when you make it the old fashioned way - which is working your butt off, and earning it." Oh come on Erik, "you didn't build that".  | ||
| Oldog |
Buyers remorse is setting in http://www.teaparty.org/shock-poll-71-obama-suppor ters-regret-voting-reelection-34974/ | ||
| Oldog |
I don't know what to make of this ..... http://www.teaparty.org/admiral-obama-conspired-am ericas-enemies-kidnap-chris-stevens-34985/ If true as I have maintained the man is guilty of treason.... Christmas may come early of course I may need my handy roll of foil..... (Message edited by oldog on February 19, 2014) | ||
| Sifo |
If true as I have maintained the man is guilty of treason.... As I started reading that first paragraph, I though this was going to be one of those unnamed source stories. I'm glad there is a specific name as the source of this. It's a very serious accusation that should not be made anonymously. Even it it were not true, pResident BO committed treason by providing aid and comfort to the enemies who attacked us that day by pushing a cover story, for weeks, that blamed a video as the cause of the attack, rather than acknowledging it to be terrorist attack that it was. I would support impeachment of this POS 100%.       |
