Ignoring massive life choking pollution, horrendous human right violations, toxic products, and malevent corruption is something we should embrace?
sorry which country are we talking about here? (pick any one from a very long list!) I think you'll find that both out countries have at some very recent times fitted that description pretty well.
There's nothing wrong with a strong India. China, on the other hand, is making plans to invade.
India is a nuclear armed nation that is not really a full democracy. if you belong to one fo the lower castes you may well think there is no democracy at all come to that. India has also been supplied for years by Russia with military hardware.
Do you really beleiev that there are not detailed plans for the nuclear annihalation of China/Russi/India/Iran/Europe (delete as appropriate) somewhere in the Pentagon? The US seems to have very little scruples when it comes to sying on friendly nations so I doubt they have any morals about China.
I'm convinced that there are those who will oppose certain things, not based on the facts surrounding the proposal, but based upon who is proposing it. China completely ignores basic humanitarian needs, using what is basically slave labor, ignores any environmental concerns, ignores patent laws, ignores copyright laws, produced products that are so toxic that they are not safe for humans or our pets and manipulates their currency unfairly. That's just off the top of my head, but are valid reasons to not have them in the WTO, and valid reasons to try to avoid their products. Add to that, that they are just largely in opposition to us in the arena of world politics, which is another reason to really thing about if they should be supported by the West.
I find deeply ironic that when China belateledy embraces the 'American Dream' and enters the capitalist market that we somehow suddenly cry foul?
Sorry, but that is just complete fantasy based on nothing but unicorn sparkles.
I don't have a problem with competing with others on a level playing field, but that isn't what we are dealing with. Just as there are individual that I would avoid having any financial transactions with, China is a country that I will also avoid dealing with. Unfortunately, right now, largely because of their unfair and dishonest policies they have made huge strides toward becoming a superpower of the world. Think carefully about if that's something you want for this world. They are not afraid to project their new power for their best benefit, fairly or not.
greatlaker said: I didn't feel like I was attacking Blake. Just getting sick of all of his fear mongering, paranoia. I just thought it would be pleasant for him not to post more crap for a change.
You claim that you are not attacking and then blaze out of the trenches in the very next sentences. BTW: you might want to look in the mirror, dude, eh?
You lost me. First, I deal with the here and now, the present, what is happening now. I've never understood the hand-wringing self-recrimination justification for suicidal inaction. For me, that is reprehensible negligence.
Oppose evil where you see it.
I've told a lie in my lifetime. I'm not held impotent to oppose malevolent liars because of that.
It's the extreme height of negligence to all that is good to turn blind eyes towards the kind of serious large scale malevolence that the communist Chinese govt is perpetrating.
You apparently missed the entire point concerning their PUBLICLY published, via their state-controlled media, nuclear attack plans against America.
Planning for war is one thing. Advertising nuclear attack plans to the world is quite another. It shows the extreme hubris and malevolence born in the hearts of the communist Chinese overlords.
This is a totalitarian communist govt born of the mass-murder of tens of millions, close to a hundred million of their own. When they publicly exhibit their ideas for waging nuclear attack against America, it's ought to concern all peaceful freedom respecting people.
If the American govt were to behave like the govt of China, the world would be beyond outraged, and rightly so. Our products would be universally boycotted and our actions excoriated by all, and rightly so.
But when it comes to communist China, you propose we ignore it?
"Do you really beleiev that there are not detailed plans for the nuclear annihalation of China/Russi/India/Iran/Europe (delete as appropriate) somewhere in the Pentagon?"
Like I said, not theoretical plans. You don't set a time table for contingency plans. China has.
The above was published on October 28th, 2013 by leading Chinese state-run media outlets including China Central TV, the People’s Daily, the Global Times, the PLA Daily, the China Youth Daily and the Guangmin Daily. All ran identical, top-headlined reports about the “awesomeness” of the People's Liberation Army navy’s strategic submarine force.
The article features 30 photos and graphics detailing, among other things, damage projections for Seattle and Los Angeles after being hit by Chinese nuclear warheads and the deadly radiation that would spread all the way to Chicago.
quote:
Because the Midwest states of the U.S. are sparsely populated, in order to increase the lethality, [our] nuclear attacks should mainly target the key cities on the West Coast of the United States, such as Seattle, Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego. ...
If we launch our DF 31A ICBMs over the North Pole, we can easily destroy a whole list of metropolises on the East Coast and the New England region of the U.S., including Annapolis, Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Portland, Baltimore and Norfolk, whose population accounts for about one-eighth of America’s total residents.
Abbreviation UNDP Formation 1965 Type Programme Legal status Active Headquarters New York City, USA Head Helen Clark Parent organization ECOSOC[1] Website www.undp.org
One thing people forget about Chinese technolgy industries is that they have almost Zero domestic market, so HAVE to rely on global exports in order to survive (Some sectors actually shrank last year).
if China decided to nuke all its best customers then they wouldn't last very long in business would they
This just reminds of the fuss over 'perceived' soviet threats going back 50 years, which in the end turned out to be highly inflated and untrue. I won't lose any sleep over the threat of Chinese invasion either thanks .
Not news to me in the least, nor to anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Kristallnacht, social justice, war on poverty, war on drugs, global warming, katrina crisis, health care crisis, mortgage crisis, common sense gun control, climate change, immigration reform, war on women, ... all manufactured crises or grossly over-hyped non-crises used to push political agendas. Why do you think we despise Obama and friends so much? They're not the first to "never let a crisis go to waste", but they have taken the idea to a whole new level. "Let me be clear..."
The Saddam and bin laden issues were not manufactured intentionally anymore than Hitler, Stalin, the N. Korean Kim regimes, and their ilk everywhere. It not false that evil, deep dark horrendous evil really truly walks this earth. I agree though, those who deceive in order to perpetrate political agendas populate that club.
Some imagine virtually all evil in the world that warrants opposition as a govt conspiracy. Which side are they on? Are they manufacturing a crisis? Careful which side you're on.
It's the extreme height of negligence to all that is good to turn blind eyes towards the kind of serious large scale malevolence that the communist Chinese govt is perpetrating.
You apparently missed the entire point concerning their PUBLICLY published, via their state-controlled media, nuclear attack plans against America.
Planning for war is one thing. Advertising nuclear attack plans to the world is quite another. It shows the extreme hubris and malevolence born in the hearts of the communist Chinese overlords.
This is a totalitarian communist govt born of the mass-murder of tens of millions, close to a hundred million of their own. When they publicly exhibit their ideas for waging nuclear attack against America, it's ought to concern all peaceful freedom respecting people.
If the American govt were to behave like the govt of China, the world would be beyond outraged, and rightly so. Our products would be universally boycotted and our actions excoriated by all, and rightly so.
But when it comes to communist China, you propose we ignore it?
Please explain why you want that?
No one is suggesting war, just that we not support the Chinese govt's really reprehensible behavior by purchasing their stuff.
You're apparently all for supporting their behavior. Why?
Soviets not a threat? It's a shame you've never gotten to know anyone from the former Soviet block. Imagine N. Ireland with an arsenal of Soviet nuclear ballistic missiles. Americans experience just such a scenario. But hey, what's a hundred million intentionally starved, shot, and disposed of in gulags?
Soviets not a threat? It's a shame you've never gotten to know anyone from the former Soviet block. Imagine N. Ireland with an arsenal of Soviet nuclear ballistic missiles. Americans experience just such a scenario. But hey, what's a hundred million intentionally starved, shot, and disposed of in gulags?
I don't speak form a position of ignorance here. I was in the Royal air Force for 13 years during the cold war period and had the opportunity to travel to Berlin in the 1970's (including trips to the East). I saw what the real Soviet forces looked like and it came as a real surprise to see that they were definitely NOT the highly trained, well equipped and communist brainwashed specialists we had been taught (indoctrinated) about. What I saw were teenage conscripts with no socks or shirts terrified of their NCO's, tanks that broke down within 2 miles of starting and found it difficult to even get to the Soviet memorial in West Berlin without breaking down. This was borne out later during their invasdion adn occupation of Afghanistan. What we are told is a threat and what the actual threat turns out to be are sometimes very different things.
The US complained in the 1960's that Cuba was hosting Soviet missiles (and had in truth actually done so for 2 years before the CIA realised!), but you forget that the US/Nato had missiles stationed on the Soviet/Polish border too, with massive nuclear capability ready to launch at very short notice. You can't complain that only one side ramped up the cold war.
I'm pretty sure that the Chinese army is in no way capable of invading the USA or even some of its nearer neighbours at the moment, and wouldn't beleive some of the 'truth' published in the papers, regardless of the alleged source of the information.
Modern China is not the Soviet Union of the past in terms of its war fighting capability. Reagan bankrupted the Soviets, making them spend money they didn't have trying to equal our military forces. China doesn't have that problem today. They've got more money than the Soviet Union ever did, a product of our trade with them. I would not discount their military capabilities. However, I do agree that a lot of their political press is pure propaganda. Still, it begs the question, why do the politicians in China believe that the prospect of nuking the Unites States would have broad appeal to the unwashed masses? Why would they issue such propaganda, if it were not for their desire to show the people that they are ready, willing, and able to carry out a first strike with the intention of inflicting as many civilian casualties as possible? No mention of military targets, just major cities with the intent of spreading radiation as widely as possible.
I remember when people complained about Japanese electronics back in the day...
But...I do avoid Chinese products for the most part for the various reasons mentioned. I do have some small tech products and a pair of shoes. It is shocking how much out there is of Chinese origin these days.
I remember when people complained about Japanese electronics back in the day...
But...I do avoid Chinese products for the most part for the various reasons mentioned. I do have some small tech products and a pair of shoes. It is shocking how much out there is of Chinese origin these days.
I do too. There was some good reason for that too, largely because they would dump product into our economy below cost to kill competition. HD specifically complained of this (late 70's early 80's, I don't remember exactly when) and this lead to tariffs on imported bikes over 750 cc. There's many other examples of this sort of thing that went on back then. Today they are a much more honest trading partner.
The problem with China is that while the Japanese manufactures were not great trading partners back then, it wasn't part of government policy the way it is with China. China is doing this on a much larger scale with government backing. Add to that their refusal to acknowledge intellectual property rights, ignoring any conventions of labor laws, etc., etc., and you find that as a government, China is not working to be an honest trade partner. This has been acknowledged by our current administration, who promised to address the problems. I'm not mentioning this to place blame, the problem has been ignored by previous administrations too. I simply point it out because it helps point out that the problem is real. Japan, as well as many other Asian countries have learned to compete fairly, and have done well for themselves. China is not among those who have shown a willingness to compete fairly. Legitimizing China's behavior does little to benefit the people of China, but instead serves to drag the American people, and any people who are tied to our well being, down toward their level.
We're talking past each other it seems. I don't disagree with everything you're saying. It just has little to no relevance to the issue that I keep trying to get you to address.
You talk military capability. Thats mostly a red herring, or a total non-sequitur. Matt, I'm talking about actual behavior. Why are you defending the mendacious and outright malicious behavior of the communist Chinese govt?
I'll ask again...
If the American govt were to behave today like the govt of China, the entire world would be beyond outraged, and rightly so. Our products would be universally boycotted and our actions excoriated by all, and rightly so.
But when it comes to communist China, you propose we ignore it? Why?
All China's govt need do to change my position would be to allow their currency to be valued per the open market, stop their massive dumping of and govt subsidies for consumer products like plywood, adhere to WTO rules, become at least minimally decent stewards of the environment, and human rights. Stop threatening others with nuclear annihilation and bragging about it to there own people!
I have a good friend in Taiwan; he is native Taiwanese. Got his masters in Engineering at Texas Tech University. He is very frustrated by attitudes like yours. He says such blindness to reality, willful denial of the facts, will only embolden the bad actors in China toward open military conflict with Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, and the West. He says that too many in the West just don't understand the psychology of the Chinese communists. Weakness is despised, saving face (pride) is everything.
He says "Watch the documentary." That it is spot on.
Why not boycott in the name of human rights and freedom? It worked with S. Africa.
As an aside, I've spent some time in Japan. They love America and Americans. We were well embraced, even when obnoxious and stupid drunk. There were consumer products out there far beyond anything in the states. I'm guessin' probably too expensive for our market.
In China, we were warmly greeted in a bar in Hong Kong with someone I could only guess was an intel agent of some sort. He bought us drinks and asked some not so subtle questions about our travels and such. Everyone else looked towards us curiously and with some disdain. I imagine the sentiment hasn't changed much.
All China's govt need do to change my position would be to allow their currency to be valued per the open market, stop their massive dumping of and govt subsidies for consumer products like plywood, adhere to WTO rules, become at least minimally decent stewards of the environment, and human rights. Stop threatening others with nuclear annihilation and bragging about it to there own people!
Not to negate the nuclear threat from China, but the quality of their munitions is on par with the quality of their goods. I know this because of the time I spent in the Navy. Part of my job was to study these threats. We found that even some of the ships (including subs) were so badly built, they never left port and had pumps running on some of them 24/7 just to keep them afloat. We (the military intelligence machine) watched as they removed most of the good equipment to use on other ships, which rarely left port as well. I had the chance to witness several of their missile launches and found I could do better with an Estes rocket.
I am not a social civilization expert, but experience has shown me that those who tend to plume their own feathers the most, have the least to show.
Besides, everyone knows the best way to take out the west coast (and most of the western part of the nation) via nuclear weapons, is to drop a few on the surface of the ocean and watch the show. Might take care of their issues with Japan as well...
not all New Balance shoes are MIA, check your labels, the lower-end ones are outsourced
"One out of every 4 pairs of shoes we sell in the USA is made or assembled here. Where the domestic value is at least 70%, we label our shoes "Made in the USA"."
and going on that more - only 25% of their shoes are ACTUALLY made in America...yet they label their products MIA? So if a few of a product run are made here we can claim it all is? Jacked up logic
The way it was explained to me by a store manager is this:
There are Chinese made shoes. Then there are American assembled shoes from foreign parts. Then there are American made shoes from domestic parts.
According to him (I have done no homework to verify his words) the shoes on my feet are 100% American made.
edit: addendum-
I am in no way an exclusive "American" shopper. I've got 5 kids and really can't afford to shop for anything other than bargains. (except when it comes to my wife's handbag collection)
When I lived next door to Offut field, it was well known that a dozen Soviet nukes were aimed at my house. ( actually next door, but we were in the probable crater, so what diff? ) We knew that Russian missiles of the day would probably miss by 100 miles or more, so Overkill was the plan with Big Bombs and Big targets. ( cities ) One can assume they've improved.
The US arsenal was based on small bombs precision aimed at small targets. ( bases )
The Chinese, before the tech transfers of the Bush the Elder & Clinton admins were estimated to have a miss radius of hundreds of miles. Or more. A Chinese nuke tossed at LA would have a better than even chance of hitting the Pacific. Might hit Utah. Today, we can assume the Chinese missiles to be at least comparable to the Soviet ones of the 20th century. We know ( because the Chinese brag about it ) that they have rapid re-targetable IRBMs designed for US Carrier groups, and while Seattle is further away, they have a pretty good chance of actually hitting close enough that it wouldn't matter to the average Starbucks drinker there.
Still, the odds are pretty good they would hit the Pacific, somewhere offshore, if they shot missiles at Seattle, and I'm also sure that tossing more than one to make sure they get a hit has occurred to the Chinese like it did the Russians.
A Chicom AK clone isn't a sniper rifle, but it'll still kill you dead if you get hit, and throwing a lot of bullets at you makes the odds pretty good.
Besides, before Pearl Harbor the conventional wisdom was the Japanese made inferior knock offs of Western stuff. There had been some warnings that that was not so, ( like from Clair Chennault of the Flying Tigers ) but few believed it.
The bad news in 1941 was that the Japanese Airplanes were as good as anything we had deployed in the world. And we didn't believe it even as the B-17's were being strafed in Hawaii and the Philippines.
You tell me the Chinese has a crappy army, and they have crappy missiles? Perhaps. But it's a really big crappy army, full of horny teenagers, and they are rich enough thanks to US that they can afford lots of crappy missiles. Quantity has a Quality all it's own.
