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Court
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>>virtually zero sign up by young Americans

Young?

As of yesterday . . . **I HEARD** (take it with whatever grain of salt you need) that in my home state of Kansas (where HHS Secretary Selbelis is from) that the number signed up was ZERO.

Folks in the midwest . . . know shit by it's smell.
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Reindog
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A MAJOR design flaw is that one can not anonymously explore the website to ascertain what the scope of various policies are. You have to present yourself to the Eye of Sauron first. No thanks.

I used the adjective "young" because they are instrumental in the short term success of this putrid program. They pay in but rarely use any benefits. In effect, the young will pay for the older people, who tend to have medical issues.

The "young" won't have anything to do with this POS and it was totally predictable from the start. Couple this in with the mountain of crony exemptions and you got a real OOPS on your hand.
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A MAJOR design flaw is that one can not anonymously explore the website to ascertain what the scope of various policies are. You have to present yourself to the Eye of Sauron first. No thanks.

I think you are viewing the "design flaw" as a flaw in that people don't want to give their information to just shop. I agree with that point. It was a stopping point in my "shopping" when they wanted enough information to cross reference me with other databases for verification. BIG NO THANKS!

It's also a major design flaw in handling traffic on the servers. As soon as you login, you have all kinds of security that needs to be handled. That puts a major load on the servers for folks that are simply "window shopping". This was supposed to be modeled like shopping with Amazon.com. They don't require you to login just to browse. Typical government boondoggle.
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Doz
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It dawned on me this morning after talking with a guy over coffee. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The gov't is taking control of the health care biz.....to make (take) money.
Hopefully to pay down the national debt....?
Or just to have more money to spend foolishly...?
Breaking it down to simple terms and this is how I see it.
right or wrong, I'm not signing up
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Alfau
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Censorship has many forms. Illegal immorgrants won't like having to expose their status when they go to the doctor.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You'll have to check the numbers but **I THINK** the CBO said it required 7,000,000 participants by the end of the year to make the system work.

The first several days (and it took the threat of a FOIA request) there were a paltry couple thousand folks who actually enrolled.

Be predictions sounded like about 2,000,000 if they are lucky.

This thing will cave under itself.

But our traditional, screwed up as it may be system, will be gone.
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Keeping in mind that this is just my opinion.

The gov't is taking control of the health care biz.....to make (take) money.

Yep. Pro-Gov Health Insurance folk would say that too many are not insured because the market system is too expensive. There's something to that. part of the problem is the rules gov NOW has on the insurance companies, demanding services that are expensive, driving costs up. Part is of course the evil greed of the Insurance companies, which pull down a small percentage profit, ( but a huge absolute one ) and have rich jerks in charge. Everyone hates the Insurance companies.

So it's an easy emotional argument to make.

Anti gov health insurance folk point to the simple fact that adding a layer of bureaucracy will raise costs, no matter what some lying sack politician says. More managers = higher prices.

Another anti argument is that with the power to control your health coverage, comes the records of your life being open to the IRS, and the IRS has been used for evil purposes. It was during the Nixon Admin, and it is now. I do indeed mean Now, as we speak. So having the IRS with your medical records, including the talks with your shrink, or the drugs that you use, or the diseases you get, should be a little daunting. Unless, of course, you will always be a vocal supporter of the Administration In Power At The Time.

Let's say the Next President is Dick Cheney, and he uses every dirty trick that Obama uses, only nastier. You want your son or daughter's drug treatment records open to HIM when you stand up to oppose his actions?

Sure, that sounds paranoid, it's not like your email/friends/contact list is being stored by the NSA, is it? ( are these words? ) That's just crazy talk.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/family-jailed-for-holde rs-gun-crimes/

Hopefully to pay down the national debt....?

I don't think so. They never mentioned that IIRC.

Or just to have more money to spend foolishly...?

Well...... foolishly? Probably for your point of view. I'd certainly agree with you. I just assumed they were hoping to steal it like they did/do the Social Security fund money.

right or wrong, I'm not signing up

At the current rate of web site development, I don't know how they CAN prosecute people for not signing up on the current time limit. That may not prevent them from fining you though.

In NY, the Gov's office supports a Casino Bill. The wording on the Ballot for that Bill, is very one sided. There exists a legal mechanism to challenge the wording, but in this case the wording was not released until after the time limit for objecting to it expired. It's in Court now, but may not be settled until after the election, when it'll be too late. BTW, Gov. Andrew Cuomo looks to be a prime contender for Next President, so get ready, he is, IMHO one evil SOB and may make Obama look like Sgt. Shultz vs. Major Hochsteader.
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Doz
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 07:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So....be happy and act like a sheep?
Like the debt ceiling, the way things are done by this gov't cannot continue.
Or maybe I need to raise my own debt ceiling, lets see just how long that will work...!
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Fb1
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 08:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

How Will You Fare in the Obamacare Exchanges?
By Drew Gonshorowski, Oct 16, 2013

Enrollment in Obamacare’s health insurance exchanges has proven to be a somewhat difficult process amidst technical glitches and delays. Aside from the issues associated with actually purchasing health care, once an individual gets a quote for health insurance on an exchange, is the premium higher or lower than before?

Our research finds that for many states, the insurance on health exchanges will cost more than existing insurance. This study illustrates that the general experience for individuals shopping on the exchange is that of increasing premiums from what was available to them prior to implementation of the exchanges. Many families and individuals will face this reality as they apply for coverage, and the implications of experiencing sticker shock are important to consider if enough people choose not to sign up for coverage for various reasons.

Methodology

The Heritage Health Insurance Microsimulation Model (HHIMM), in concordance with insurer data compiled by Mark Farrah and Associates, is used to create a snapshot of what it looks like to shop for insurance prior to exchange implementation. This data is used to build weighted average premiums within the rating areas, similar to the process described in the most recent release from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).[2]

First, we use expected age distribution in the individual market from the HHIMM. Next, we use census data for the county populations in order to scale up to the state level, creating something that is roughly comparable to the weighted averages presented by HHS.[3] This comparison is different from others in that, rather than comparing specific plans, it is designed to capture the difference in premium levels between the exchange and what could be acquired in the market.

This paper is meant to provide a necessary segue to HHS’s data summary, creating an apples-to-apples comparison of exchange data to what the costs are for individuals. Effectively, we have used the same methods that were employed to provide summary data on the exchange markets to prior insurance data in order to get the closest comparison.

Some state-based exchanges have data releases that are more limited than the 36 federal exchanges. For state exchanges, some premiums must be estimated. As is the case with all studies built to address the changes in exchange premiums, it is important to note that when more data becomes available, results could vary slightly.

This study considers the data as released by HHS. States with little data released are omitted from this study.[4]

Results

Individuals in most states will end up spending more on the exchanges. It is true that in some states, the experience could be the opposite. This is because those states had already over-regulated insurance markets that led to sharply higher premiums through adverse selection, as is the case of New York. Many states, however, double or nearly triple premiums for young adults. Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Kansas, and Vermont see some of the largest increases in premiums.[5]



The Obama Administration is desperate for younger people to enroll to prevent an adverse selection death spiral. As pointed out by Sam Cappellanti at the American Action Forum, “The enrollment of these low cost young adults…is essential as they are required to subsidize the costs of insuring the elderly and chronically ill.”[6] However, young adults face a penalty for not enrolling that is projected to be far less than the insurance coverage they could receive.

Our findings confirm that younger populations see larger percentage increases in premiums. A state that exhibits this clearly is Vermont, where the increase for 27-year-olds is 144 percent and the increase for 50-year-olds is still 60 percent, but far less. All states exhibit this relationship.

Many individuals will experience sticker shock when shopping on the exchanges. It is clear that many policies and cross-subsidization within Obamacare will lead to upward shifts in premiums. These policies include the health insurance tax, essential health benefit and actuarial value regulations, less allowed age variability in premiums, community rating, and guaranteed issue.[7] However, real uncertainty, amidst a rocky start, surrounds what enrollment will look like in the exchanges.

Fantasy Savings

Obamacare will leave many people paying more for their health insurance. The healthcare.gov website is learning to crawl, with additional data trickling in. However, based on information already released by HHS, states, and insurance plans, the claims of savings on premiums for the average participant is a fantasy.

—Drew Gonshorowski is a Policy Analyst in the Center for Data Analysis at The Heritage Foundation.



Source, and link to references in this report: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/10/e nrollment-in-obamacare-exchanges-how-will-your-hea lth-insurance-fare?
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Xb1125r
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

if i cross the border to mexico and then sneak back would that qualify me as an illigal, so then I can get insurance for 4 under $100 bucks.
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

and for the n'th time
It is not health insurance
IF your provider refuses to accept Medicare and Medicaid - which an ever increasing number are

you get the joys of both paying the premium and NOT being able to be seen.....

It collapses under its own weight indeed.
and here to help it do so
hell - I will throw gas on the train wreck
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buellkowski:

I know you are reading this. Why do you NOT answer questions about your experience and perception of Wonder's ACA?
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Delaware got someone signed up!!!

Too bad it's a 59 year old that needs young folks to sign up to subsidize her rates.

They are on track to have half a dozen people signed up by year end!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/delaware-celeb rates-first-person-finally-enrolls-obamacare_76360 3.html
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buellkowski:

Yoohoo! Over here! Ya gonna contribute or just hurl stink bombs and skeedaddle like a liver-lilied varmint (said in my best Yosemite Sam voice : ))??

I can't get onto the HealthCare exchange to shop around because I refuse to let the Eye of Sauron know who this customer is. Are you faring any better? Are you less inclined to shop knowing that multiple databases are looking at you for just trying to find information? Are you concerned that you will become a target for identity theft just for shopping? I am.
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

go to the cemetery, get a name off a tombstone; perferably someone that could mathmatically be alive and us there info to get a quote
Use Barry's fake social
and do it from a open cafe - not your home or static IP

Welcome to Gogol's reality.
Let the Dead Souls reign.
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Sifo
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 07:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You need the most recent address of that dead person. It wouldn't let me provide a fake street name. That was my stopping point. It would be easy to use information found in the phone book though.
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You need the most recent address of that dead person. It wouldn't let me provide a fake street name.

Contact your local office of the DNC; they can probably help you with that...
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had a vacant lot as my mailing address for years, it worked great ..... until they built a fire house on it.

911 E Park Avenue
Bremerton WA

; ) the irony is thick in this one

If the dead can vote - and they do - then they can be enrolled in Ocare ......
and will be in droves
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I got this a few minutes ago from Dustin Stockton, co-founder of Western Representation PAC. I like his style:

quote:

A Parliament of Traitors and Whores

Dear Patriot,

The Republican establishment just sold us out. Mitch McConnell received his $3 billion of silver to betray the base and the grassroots, via an amendment authored by Lamar Alexander. They're such sluts for a good porking, and their explanation strains credulity: we had to spend $3 billion on a dam to make sure the taxpayers didn't lose $160 million. That's Washington math at its finest.

President Obama made one concession: HHS Secretary Kathleen Sibelius will certify that income verification measures are in place to verify eligibility for Obamacare subsidies. That certification will consist of a letter to Congress, and it will be followed by GAO reports that reveal how much of a liar Kathleen Sibelius is. And yes, that's right: those income verification measures weren't already in place.

It takes $2.9 billion to put Mitch McConnell on his knees before President Obama, whoring himself out and betraying his Kentucky constituents. There's no relief for the good people of Kentucky or their families, who will see their premiums go up and their available providers go down. Their senator didn't bother to insist that President Obama face the music for his unconstitutional and illegal delay of the employer mandate, or the out of pocket limits, until 2015. There's good money to be made betting on another delay in 2015.

This is war. We're not going to stand by as the whores in Washington betray us and their constituents to send money to their crony sugar daddies, including the pharmaceutical companies who stand to make an estimated $35 billion in profits from Obamacare. We're not going to stand by while insurance companies charge their policyholders huge premium increases for out of pocket limits that won't be in place until 2015. We're going to burn Mitch McConnell and his parliament of whores at the stake in 2014 and 2016. That's right, we're coming in multiple election cycles for revenge.

Washington might not be helping you, or working families, but it's damn sure taking care of its own. Take recently deceased Senator Frank Lautenberg's widow, whose worth is $56 million: the Senate made sure she got another $174,000 of your money as a final payout. They did this while you're struggling to make ends meet, because what's another $174,000 of somebody else's money among millionaire politicians and their families?

These 81 whores curbstomped liberty and defecated on the Constitution yet again tonight. We aren't going to forget. We're coming in 2014, and they will hear us coming. They will remember this day and rue it, and we will pour forth the fires of your wrath upon their heads. We're not running away, and we are not beaten. This is but one battle, and we are turning tonight's defeat into a historic triumph.

Every dollar you contribute to us is a bullet aimed at the heart of the status quo in Washington, a bullet aimed at the parliament of whores and traitors who sold you out tonight. While the Senate did not respect our will tonight, they will fear our will in the primaries and they will know our resolve in the general election. We are coming, and we are never going to stop until we take down every last one of these 81 whores.

You aren't funding a political campaign. You're funding a revolution. Your donations are history-making ammunition to execute those who spat in your faces tonight with their vote. It's time to take these whores and traitors out. Donate today, and know that your dollars will rain down like mortars on those who betrayed us tonight in 2014. A season of vengeance is upon us, and it is time for the establishment to reap what it has sown.



Source: www.westernpac.org
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Torquehd
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hopefully to pay down the national debt....?

But Oblasphemy has worked so hard to get it as high as it is, and he's still pushing away for more!

If they wanted to pay down the national debt, that would make a big point of it. Not shroud it in mystery and retribution.
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Sifo
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So how is this going to actually work in the real world? The method for enrolling in ObamaDontCare is a mess. The current rate of enrollment is far below what is needed to make things work. Traffic on healthcare.gov is dwindling, so enrollment is likely to trail off from here. Will they actually expect people to pay a penalty for not buying a product that they CAN'T purchase. Will any of that actually give someone better health care?

The exciting (and I don't mean that in a good way) thing about all of this, is that the next fiscal crisis has just been put right in the middle of the season of WTF do we do with ObamaDontCare penalties for all of the people who can't afford to purchase from a website that can't sell insurance. If you think what we just saw was bad, hang on to your butts!
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Reindog
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Reindog
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Uno mas
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is a followup e-mail I just received from Dustin Stockton from Western Representation PAC. Classy stuff:

quote:

Dear Patriot,

After seeing some of the crony handouts in the legislative deal yesterday I instructed our team not to pull their punches and portray the rage that we are justifiably feeling over just the latest example of Washington corruption.

Although my name was at the bottom of that email it was not written by me and some of the rhetoric I felt went over the line. I'd like to apologize for that and since it had my name on it, ultimately it is my responsibility and I apologize for some of the more brash rhetoric.

The fact is that these politicians who are granted the sacred honor of representing our interests ARE whoring themselves out to lobbyists and special interests and that corruption is eroding the basic principles of liberty that our country was founded on, and it can't continue.

The corruption is so vast and the solution so difficult that it can become overwhelming. Our team is humbled and honored for the opportunity to dedicate our lives to fighting these evil bastards. We only succeed when we responsibly represent your voice in our activism and our email earlier stepped over the line. We apologize for that, but not for calling it like we see it.

The upcoming elections are our best opportunity to effect critical changes peacefully. I hope you'll continue to stand beside us and forgive our uncouth choice of words as a mark of our teams passion for the cause of liberty. We'll learn from this mistake and pledge to do better in the future!



I pinged him back and said if it were me I wouldn't apologize for a single word of his earlier e-mail. It was right on the money, IMO.

That said, very classy on Dustin's part. Too bad the bastards in DC don't have the same scruples...
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

say when was the last time income verification was fraudulantly reported in rampant tendencies against un mitigated risks set against risks that could not be offset by capital, investment, or real-estate......

anyone......?
.....anyone......?
...........anyone ......?

The Housing crisis of 2007-10 and the following cascading affect through the investment, financial, and consumer good markets.

Now being that Medical / Social services are 17% of the economy... and over 1/3 of the budget (when they write one)
...... will ObamaCare lower or raise prices and create a more stable economy or cause chaos....

anyone......?
.....anyone......?
...........anyone ......?

why do I feel like I am stuck in bad 80's movie .....
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Aesquire
Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 06:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you get the feeling that you were told to split up and find the axe murderer?
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Sifo
Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Obamacare woes widen as insurers get wrong data


quote:

Insurers say the federal health-care marketplace is generating flawed data that is straining their ability to handle even the trickle of enrollees who have gotten through so far, in a sign that technological problems extend further than the website traffic and software issues already identified.
...
The flaws could do lasting damage to the law if customers are deterred from signing up or mistakenly believe they have obtained coverage.


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Fb1
Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

ObamaCare's Third World Experience
Oct. 18, 2013

Closer examination of the design and implementation of the ObamaCare enrollment website reveals a long list of mistakes that could have been avoided, but instead were compounded by politically motivated decisions made by the Obama administration. And problems likely won't be resolved for months.

Late in the design phase of the exchanges, the Department of Health and Human Services removed fundamental elements of the site that would have allowed consumers to actually see the cost of insurance so as to reduce “rate shock.” It had become apparent even to the true believers that ObamaCare wasn't affordable or flexible in its options. The truth would have led to reduced enrollment, so HHS opted to reject transparency for the sake of political expediency – and they still got low enrollment. HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius still refuses to reveal the true number of enrollees, which private sources estimate is a paltry 20% of the government's target for October.

Source, more: http://patriotpost.us/articles/21006


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Garryb
Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FYI on the success of Romneycare

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/0929/ Romneycare-vs.-Obamacare-Lessons-for-today-s-shutd own-debacle-video
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Aesquire
Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hmm, so all we need to do is ask our State Legislators to pause for a moment in their fund raising, and get someone smarter than them to improve their Healthcare system, so it's at least as good as MA. Since I'm is a State worse than MA, that's a good deal. If I was in a state Better than MA, I'd be very cautious I wasn't making things worse.

Would we then be able to "reform" Obamacare so it costs less than a billion$ to not be able to sign up? Perhaps pick a dozen good ideas, ( there HAVE to be at least 3 real good ones, like "no pre-existing conditions" So in 10,000 pages of regulations, that only leaves 9 ideas to find. Not that Congress read any of that ) Make them law, and dump the other Trillion$ as wasted effort?

btw, Garry, did you check what spin the Catholic papers are putting on the same story? Or maybe a Hindu one?
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