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Cityxslicker
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 01:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The first purges are always of reputation, then money, then property, then of family, then of death.

welcome to the Communist circle of life.

read some Tom Clancy - we have been doing it for decades
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 01:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hypocrite.

I’m okay with it now that Obama is in office. I’m kind of trusting of him,” he said. “We live in a world of nuclear weapons. And there are religious fanatics who would love to get one and set if off here… The fact that a city can be demolished in one second kinda tips the scale for me. I’m not saying to look into your emails is the right thing, I’m just saying, I’m not gonna pretend it’s ‘cause I’m brave, it’s ‘cause I’m scared.”

--Bill Maher

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/06/11/ho llywood-stars-turn-on-obama-over-nsa-phone-tapping -scandal/?intcmp=features#ixzz2W0hfHUll


If Bush had been in office, well, you know the rest.

Those of you who are pissed off about this, what if your horse had been in office? Would you be supporting this? Think about that and be honest with yourself.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Those of you who are pissed off about this, what if your horse had been in office? Would you be supporting this? Think about that and be honest with yourself.

As Reepicheep said, and I agreed with, a lot had to do with 9/11. It was a shock call that we are vulnerable to this sort of attack. That lead to people becoming more open to more government intrusion on a temporary basis. The intent was that as we got a handle on dealing with the terrorists, we would again limit the government intrusion. In the real world, as we got a better handle on dealing with the terrorists, government has openly expanded it's powers, and clandestinely expanded it's powers beyond what was given them. I think that I am being honest when I say that I have grave concerns about this, regardless of who's in power. The simple fact that you give the government power over the people opens the door for the first despot who gets into power, regardless of their party affiliation. I will admit that currently, I see democrats being far more power hungry, but I'm not the least bit ignorant to the fact that almost anybody who rises to that level of power has gotten there through a thirst for power. We need to keep mind of the fact that the Constitution was written in a way to protect the people from the power hungry.
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The intent was that as we got a handle on dealing with the terrorists, we would again limit the government intrusion.?

How do you think we got a handle on dealing with terrorists? Should we throw away the tools that enabled us to find them while there is still an active jihad against us? That makes no sense to me.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For me it's just a case of which scares me more at the moment. On 9/12 it was terrorists and I wanted the government to help.

Now, reading transcripts from IRS agents killing political speech, and what looks like a wholesale political agenda from the department of justice, I'm more afraid of tyranny.

And looking back (with perhaps the wisdom of age) I'm thinking I got it wrong the first time. Both terrorism and tyranny are awful, but tyranny scales better when it comes to kill you, and needs a tighter leash.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Should we throw away the tools that enabled us to find them while there is still an active jihad against us?

We are on the one hand being told by our government that terrorism is all but defeated (I'm not sure I'm buying that, but it's from our current leader), and on the other hand finding that our government is using these tools not against the Jihadists, but against it's own people. Again, I find my self in agreement with Reepicheep in that I fear the tyranny of our own government far more than I fear terrorism.
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If these "tools" were so effective, then the Boston terrorist bombers would have been apprehended before their attack.

I am orders of magnitude more concerned with government intrusion on our privacy. For example, what do you think will happen when the government has your health history? Details about political opponents will be leaked and any opposition will be defeated because of it. Think it won't happen, then think again as it is already happening with the DOJ, EPA, and IRS scandals.

Sprinkle twenty years after this becomes "normal" and it will be quite easy for a despot to control the Executive Branch. Bush/Obama will be remembered as pussies compared to that future BossMan.

What is 2+2, Winston, I mean, Hootowl?
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"We are on the one hand being told by our government that terrorism is all but defeated "

Consider the source. The guy is a self-aggrandizing narcissist.

That doesn't mean I want to cripple the next administration in order to demonize the current one, which is exactly what the left does, and what you folks appear to be doing.

Approval of clandestine observation of phone records has soared among democrats, and has dropped among republicans. I wonder why that is. Note that the previous sentence was not a question.

After 9/11 we felt a certain way. When it happens again, you'll feel the same way, and will regret clamoring for heads to roll over a legal surveillance program that has, but unfortunately may not in the future, prevent attacks that would have killed innocent Americans.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Consider the source. The guy is a self-aggrandizing narcissist.

Absolutely consider the source. In this case the source is someone who seldom speaks truth. It's clear that he considers citizens who don't share his beliefs to be the enemy. He is a leader who has promoted instability in other parts of the world, and arguably, also in the US. He is the reason for all the checks and balances of power that our founders built. When you give that up for the sake of safety, you will lose your liberties. I don't want to see the constitution violated by either party. It is because of the abuses of power that these security secrets needed to be exposed. Who is at fault at that point? The whistle blower or the tyrant?
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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When the Patriot Act was signed, I thought that it was good that we erased the Clinton "line" between domestic and international security.

The Clinton admin cut our military and our intel agencies based on ideology, a hatred for patriotism, the military, and spies. ( American spies, anyway )

The Bush guys wanted to allow more information sharing, streamline surveillance in a fast moving terrorist war and bound the possible over reach with time limits and controls. ( they may not have done a good job at that, but they tried, and knew that the powers they asked for were dangerous. )

Obama's guys took out the controls, took out the time limit, and increased the power of the Executive.

If the situation were reversed, If Bush had taken out the controls on tyranny Obama installed, would there have been SOME outcry? "Note that the previous sentence was not a question."

duh. There IS a partisan element here.

Tip, don't give your guy power you don't want the other guy to have. The wheel turns, and it's just a matter of time before ( for example ) Jeb Bush uses the IRS to destroy Planned Parenthood. ( or whatever your cause is )

Seriously. Think about this crap before you give ANY politician more power. It WILL bite you.



I wasn't in favor of the creation of yet another massive money spending govt. agency, the DHS. We already had more than enough agencies. The political aspects of the DHS targeting those who disagree with the President, as opposed to fighting a war against the foreign threat?

Well, just complaining about it apparently makes me the greatest threat to America.

Not Bin Laden, not AQ, not N Korea, people who disagree with Barack Obama.

Think about that one.

There's a word for that.
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/350800/two-f aces-barack-obama-jonah-goldberg

This one defends Obama on the NSA.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/350702/why-p resident-obama-became-snoop-rich-lowry

Notice there is no excuse for the IRS crimes.

And his foreign policies are still ill advised, and harmful to peace, freedom, America, and the planet as a whole.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350771/presid ent-obamas-war-strategy-requires-security-state-an d-he-knows-it-david-french
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Reindog
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This morning's Trifecta is essential viewing, especially for Hootowl. Whittle, Ott, and Green are more succinct than we mere Badweb mortals.

Trifecta :--> The Obama Police State: Is Obama Sacrificing Liberty in the Name of Safety?
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Fdl3
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

They're not doing that either. They know that a call took place, that's it.
I hope that is really true, although I am not sure I am comfortable with people knowing when and to whom I made phone calls.

My main points are really these:

1. In this digital age, as easy as it is to gather call "metadata", it would be just as easy to gather actual call "content", even accidentally so. I know it is being claimed this is not taking place, but I am reminded of an incident with Google Street View cars gathering WiFi "metadata". Google claimed no actual WiFi "content" was being gathered, but they were wrong. The inference? If a company making a power-grab in the market can gather data bordering on (or in fact) private data, then so can a government made up of power-hungry individuals.

Google Admits Street View WiFi Sniffing (one of many sources)

2. "Listening" in on calls is not the same thing as "reading" transcripts of calls. Thus, it would not be a lie to claim no calls are being listened in on, if the contents of calls are being read from transcripts. Cynical? Yes, but in the political arena, aren't we all now "trained" to pay attention to what is said, and perhaps to a greater extent, what is not said?

Is any of this really happening? Who knows? Only the future will reveal.

(Message edited by fdl3 on June 12, 2013)
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As has been pointed out already, none of us should be surprised that we have these capabilities at this point. Including the terrorists. Keep in mind that Bin Laden used these tools as a means of counter-intelligence to help escape our military in Fallujah by having his pawns uses his cell phone to lead us in the wrong direction. I don't really think this leak has hurt our ability to fight terrorism at all. It's not like we are very good at stopping terror attacks in the first place, telling us the "system worked as designed" when a suicide bomber fails to blow himself up due to nothing but technical problems with his bomb.

It did give a glimpse into an administration that is pretty much daily, having more examples of overreach come to light... http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/12/house-committee- looks-into-irs-seizure-of-60-million-medical-recor ds/ Where does this stop? I guess on the good side, they are rapidly eroding the basis of the Roe v. Wade case that legalized abortion on the basis of privacy. When privacy is gone, so is the justification for abortion. Just sayin...
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"This morning's Trifecta is essential viewing, especially for Hootowl"

Sorry guys, I didn't have a problem with Bush doing it, and I don't have a problem with Obama doing it. To opine otherwise would be hypocritical. I try not to let my opinions shift with the political wind.

You all are free to be outraged.

The IRS, AG, and other abusive acronyms are sure pissing me off, but the NSA surveillance program is something I agree needs to be happening.
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Fdl3
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I didn't have a problem with Bush doing it, and I don't have a problem with Obama doing it.
Well played...well played.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

but the NSA surveillance program is something I agree needs to be happening.

Why do feel it's reasonable to collect data on you and me. No doubt this very conversation is being stored for later use, by whom and for what reason is yet to be determined. Determined by the same folks that are abusing the rest of the alphabet soup agencies.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I didn't have a problem with Bush doing it, and I don't have a problem with Obama doing it.

I would have had a problem with Bush collecting data on all citizens BTW. Is there any evidence that this was being done back then? I remember an uproar about them listening in on international phone calls (not all of them BTW), but nothing like this at all. I know they are claiming that this program "started" under Bush, but it seems to have been expanded in scope since it's start. BO has used this excuse for other overreaches too. It's a poor excuse for disregarding the Constitution.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BTW, I'm not sure that opposition to this is all that partisan. Even the ACLU is condemning this. We do need to collect intelligence to keep us safe. There also needs to be boundaries. Even many on the left recognize that those boundaries have been crossed when we are collecting data on people who are suspected of having done nothing wrong.

It's 1984 all over again!
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Oldog
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Remember West Texas, where the fertilizer plant blew up?

FEMA denies aid, disaster not big enough,

Perhaps I need to get a foil hat to fit.

I suspect that this is partisan,

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/12/fema-de nies-aid-to-texas-town-where-fertilizer-plant-expl oded/

After the IRS, NSA, Benghazi, ........
Gov Perry Ran against obama, and Texas is a "RED" state
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Aesquire
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If that plant was in New Jersey, there's no doubt as to the decision.

re: NSA.
I'm far more concerned that this admin. is using police powers to harass, intimidate, and blackmail than the science fiction level surveillance. I'm not indifferent to the problem, It's just lower on my list of things that upset me. I could be very wrong about that.

Example, the "film maker" blamed, unjustly, for the Benghazi AQ attack. He probably belongs in jail, not for making an anti Jihad short, but for lying to his actors, and endangering their lives by overdubbing their work without them knowing his agenda. It's even possible that his arrest for parole violations is legit. ( using an alias )

But, the statements of the President, the UN Ambassador, and the Secretary of State were outright provable lies. For Weeks. The Sec State, Hillary, told relatives of those slain because of the actions of the President and his Minions, that it was the film maker's fault and told them he would be arrested. ( presumably for using his First Amendment Rights ) Then he was very publicly arrested for TV, for propaganda, endangering him.

Are you next?
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Cityxslicker
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 06:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

are you next on the list....

I am chilled that there are even lists
and yes, I know I am on them
Military Vet
Republican
Gun Owner

not if, but when, and F*ck them
I don't know how many they will send, but I have a damn good Idea how many I am taking with me.
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Macbuell
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just so we're clear, I was against this under Bush and am just as much against it under Obama. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our freedoms and privacy for the sake of percieved security. And like I said before, it's a shortcut. If the proper investigative work is done the same information can be gathered the proper way ... which is by tracking and spying on the terrorists themselves ... not everyone.
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Reindog
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I remember Chop screaming on Sacborg that there are no Death Panels. Technically, Sebelius is not a panel.

This guy has Obamitude.

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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It was pointed out by a talking head on the radio that we have a NSA program that can track your position, tell when, where, and who you called, listen to your conversations, ( though they deny they do, they do ) and read not only your e-mail, but track every web site you visit.

But they can't find the 11-20+ million illegal aliens that "hide in the shadows".

I'm the Prime Threat to the country because as a tax payer, legal citizen, more-or-less law abiding type that knows a tiny bit of history, I'm a potential terrorist. And I'm treated as such.

A guy who sneaks across the border, uses tax paid schools, medicine, welfare, food stamps, and could be from anywhere on the planet, including Iran, with any motivation from supporting my poor family, to poisoning a city, is treated as a privileged "undocumented Democrat Voter" and given everything free with no restrictions and zero tracking.

I'm considering declaring myself an undocumented worker, paying a small fine, and getting life free on your backs.

After all, If I want to go to TCU, or Berkley, I'd have to pay more than a local, unless I'm a criminal trespasser.

This may not actually belong on the Obama thread, since there's a small and vocal minority in the enemy Party supporting the Prez on the destruction of the GOP and America.
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Oldog
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fox is Hammering Sebelius, over Sarah's lung transplant.

Yeah our Goverment is transparent, its REAL EASY TO SEE

they're IDIOTS,

I hope that the repubs use this incident to HAMMER THE DEMOCRAPS into non existence next term.

THEN THE "VILLAGE IDIOT"
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Sifo
Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well it looks like they may not be spying on ALL of us. Now I really feel safe! Obama's Snooping Excludes Mosques, Missed Boston Bombers
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