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Archive through June 03, 2013Fast107530 06-03-13  07:49 pm
         

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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Guy/quote #2. He spent all of 45 min. at my house. Most of which was spent talking to me.

He didn't notice the kink/squish in the line.
He did say they would flush and reuse the existing line set.
He looked at the outside unit, the inside unit and took some notes. He measured the height of the air handler to see what it would take to fit the new unit in.

He didn't check any of the duct work or returns.

what he quoted

Trane Hyperion XL TAM7

with

#1 XR15 $6762.00

#2 XL16i $8538.00

#3 XL20i $10009.00

add $375 for Humidifier
add $350 for Trane Clean Effects air filter

he is paid on straight commission
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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, June 03, 2013 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mark- guy #1 sounds a lot more savvy than guy #2. BTW- about your existing equipment; you can match different sized condensing units and air handlers to get different capacities. I'd guess your system capacity is around 3-1/2 tons. Manufacturer's literature provides capacities for various combinations.
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Fast1075
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 05:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The higher the efficiency, the more important the air flow. Guy number 2 is looking to move boxes and you will end up screwed. He is a member of the "if it fits, it works club". Most likely he does not know a damn thing about HVAC.

Of interest is the 350.00 price for the "Clean Effects" filter. Sounds really fishy to me. Our cost is quite a bit higher than that. Maybe he is trying to get rid of a take out. The trane filter is a real POS. After the warranty is up, you are screwed.

The TAM7 is only required for the 16 and 20, which are both 2 stage equipment. The 15 would be best served by a less expensive GAM5 air handler. The capacity control solenoid in the 16 is prone to failure, requiring compressor replacement. The 20 is pretty reliable as long as critters don't eat the tasty wiring and kill expen$ive control boards.

All of the *AM air handlers have problems with the cabinet covers/doors cracking and leaking. Call the Carrier guys and see what they have. The carrier air handlers have years of development behind them and are less complex.
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Fast1075
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 05:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And regarding air flow, if no one uses one of these, (or a functional equivalent, I am old school, analog rocks) to check the duct static pressure, they are blowing smoke up your butt. And thus have no freakin clue what the ductwork is doing.



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Oldog
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thank you Fast / Hugh for taking the time to help explain the HVAC heat pump operation to me.

When my system ran as a heat pump I would at times hear the whoosh and other sounds of defrost. Luke warm air was about all it put out as a heat pump. At times in extreme cold it would run for over an hour at a time the house tended to be cool in those events, when on the electric heaters the house was warm.

Can any of you recommend a filter that will remove the dust and not choke off the air handler, there are 2 returns in the house, both 20x20, as I mentioned earlier the house is between 1300 - 1400 Sqft, I have no idea of the tonnage.

the Duct from the air handler appears to be double wall plastic tubing ( I heard it referred to as duct in a box ) The inlets (2) appear to be rigid material of some type
is that system even cleanable?
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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Guy #1 just called back. He is quoting Carrier/Internatinal Comfort Product.

His labor rate does not change just the cost of equipment.

He is running a new line set
Adding a cold air return
installing new heat pump and fan coil

He recommended a 15 SEER single stage

(his wording)
Entry level $5995
Main line $6500
Cadillac $7360

I start to ask him questions. 16 Seer was my target. He said let me call you right back.

For 300 bucks more he can get the 16 SEER unit
For 500 bucks more he can get the 19 SEER unit.

My electric company is offering a $500 dollar rebate on new systems.

The inside unit he is quoting is a FVM4X
The outside unit is a CCH9 (19 SEER)
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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Inside unit

http://icpindexing.toddsit.com/documents/086477/49 614510300.pdf



Outside Unit

http://www.comfortmaker.com/products/19hp.html
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Fast1075
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good choice Mark, don't forget the extended labor warranty. Also make sure the dealer stocks replacement parts, A circuit board failure with no spares at the dealership can leave you for days with a dead unit.
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Fast1075
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jim. can you get a brand/model number from the indoor unit? We can tell you what the capacity is.

If there is room/access at the air handler, put an electronic filter in. 99%+ efficiency with virtually no air restriction. But please don't by a Trane Clean Effects filter, they are junk. I know, we sell Trane as our main line.

The ductwork you mentioned is called "flex" duct. Correctly sized and installed, it is a time and cost saver. Incorrectly done, is a problem. Due to it's construction, it is restrictive compared to the old standard round pipe or ductboard. 20 feet of flex stretched straight has the air resistance equivalent to 100' of round pipe. A badly radiused 90 is equal to 60 feet of duct.
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IIRC the Green Tax credit kicks in at 19 seer. Check with your state for state tax credit, and your utility for rebates.

My Opinion is that the higher seer pays for itself in a pretty short time compared to most of the "alternative energy" stuff, ( windmills, solar panels ) which every time I check works out to $10k invest, payback 10 years. A bigger system pays back faster, but still 5+ years.

Going from a 15 to a 19 seer should pay back in less than 2 years, ( in my area ).

I'm not dissing alt energy installations as a hobby/status thing, just noting that the new heat pump is a great bargain in comparison.

The real experts will, I am sure, correct my errors. ( and I thank them for it. )
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Kenm123t
Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

IN Dry weather AES I use Carrier for my larger chillers and some residential. Trane A/S for most residential but most are dual Compressors. I live in a Swamp so Dehumidification is the most important to us. We use Santa Fe or Hi E dry Dehumidifers if we are stuck with a single speed unit
A 37 f supply water coil with face an bypass with a hot water re heat coil is even better.
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Oldog
Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 08:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How often would the electronic filter have to be accessed for service ( cleaning )?
about what is retail price for this type of system.?
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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

everything was in stock except the 19 SEER Unit.

hope its here soon...
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Fast1075
Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

An Electronic filter needs service monthly in heavy traffic homes (read kids in and out, or in dusty environments), quarterly in clean homes with little foot traffic and/or dust.

Important: If you have a lot of carpeting, fabric covered furnishings, and fabric drapes, especially if you are a nut about constant vacuuming, there will be an issue that can arise. The issue is called "white dust". It is fibers from the carpets, furniture, etc. The filter ionizes the air, causing the particles to clump and fall. They appear as "dust", so you may have to dust more often. It is a side effect of the process. It is not caused by the filter, it is the dust that used to hang in the air that you didn't know was there.


Installed prices in my area run around $800.00 to $1,200.00 dollars for an "F" series Honeywell. They come in a couple of sizes, that need to be considered when purchasing, so you get the correct one.

Honeywell has some good on line info. Just Google Honeywell electronic air filter.
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