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Scottorious
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2013 - 02:29 pm: | 
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Well I appreciate the well wishes. I'll do an actual larger scale experiment and gain more information on how feasible this is before I worry about floor loading. If in fact this can help me in some way its not really hard to brace my floor. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Thursday, April 25, 2013 - 09:04 pm: |
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Scott head off to your local Trane parts warehouse and get the Blue Book on hvac
It has all of the info you need and it will save your back! You may want a new calculator though.
Jon Unsupervised ARCHIETECTS are how I make a living MOLD IS GOLD!
I can charge 4 times what it cost to do it right the first time after the disaster.
And they beg me to do it. Then we get the expert witness fees.
We are about to finish up a case now Sweety is getting the Stone floors new baths and kitchens she wants! |
Scottorious
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 12:49 pm: |
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For indoor temperatures set at 24 “C, heavyweight build-
ings have been reported to consume less cooling energy than
comparable lightweight buildings having the equivalent ther-
mal resistance in their walls
http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena/dept/cron/project/ concrete-sustainability-hub/Literature%20Review/Bu ilding%20Energy/Controls%20&%20HVAC/thermal%20mass %20on%20cooling.pdf |
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 01:02 pm: |
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Scott, Section 2.3 Thermal Mass and Insulation jumped out at me. This makes sense to me with my experience on Maui where they don't deal with much cold in the winter. In Illinois, it's quite a different situation. You don't really have a good means of taking advantage of the cooler evenings because your thermal mass is inside the building you want to cool. It really needs to be able to dump the heat directly to the outside atmosphere to be effective. Beyond that, Illinois is quite humid. That humidity holds a lot of heat at night. The areas I've seen this work best are very arid, leading to greater differences between the high and low temperatures. |
Scottorious
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 01:29 pm: |
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I don't need to use ventilation to cool my mass, however in certain times of the year such as spring and fall ventilation at night would sufficiently cool the interior without adding too much humidity. Just shift my peak load to later when the energy is cheaper would work for me. Such as this article which is in Illinois.
http://www.facilitiesnet.com/green/article/Underus ed-strategies-could-make-green-buildings-even-gree ner--1595# |
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 02:05 pm: |
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It's not that it won't work in this climate, it's just that it's far from optimal. The experiment with the Ameritech office, while interesting, is on a very different scale than what you are talking about. Of course so are the budgets we are talking about, so it's not ridiculous to considers this. It's not something that I would want to live with in my house though. I suppose you could try to decorate with water jugs, but it's not my style. I didn't see anything about the percentage of savings on this. I'm willing to bet that without carefully controlling for the variability of weather, it wouldn't be enough to measure. Is enough to offset any expense of adding support to the floors? I have my doubts. There are many ways to try to improve climate control. None are perfect. None work for all situations. I would stick with what works best in my local climate. |
Chauly
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 03:46 pm: |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/business/energy- environment/german-building-uses-algae-for-heating -and-cooling.html |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 05:33 pm: |
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Scott,
Condensation dripping onto the floor, problem?
Jugs way too cumbersome. Not at all worth the trouble, especially at just $0.025 per KWH.
If anything, chill water during off-peak, then use it to cool house during peak time. Use normal equipment for that, meaning tank(s) and heat exchanger(s).
Caulk and seal all points of potential convective (air flow) heat transfer.
Dogs sleep all day. He won't mind the basement. Take him for walk morning and evening is WAY better investment of your time than toting a bunch of jugs twice a day. Seriously. He'll appreciate the walks tons more than a window while he sleeps. Dogs sleep 18 hrs per day. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 05:53 pm: |
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Blake Jon and I thought we could get at least 1 or 2 pages of floor load calcs out of you!
Cheated again LOL |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, April 26, 2013 - 07:23 pm: |
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Open the windows, get used to the heat... |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 08:49 am: |
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A hundred gallons of water ~830 LBs isn't much floor load. Floors are designed for a minimum of 40 PSF, so just a 5'x5' area would handle the 100 gallons.
Happy now? 
Your turn...
>>> Jon Unsupervised ARCHIETECTS are how I make a living MOLD IS GOLD!
I'd blame that on the mechanical engineers. Mold has got to be a tough challenge in Florida. Pretty bad here in E Texas too.
Got your LEED cert yet?
What a scheme that is. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 09:06 am: |
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Floors are designed for a minimum of 40 PSF, so just a 5'x5' area would handle the 100 gallons.
So for the 1000 or more gallons that was initially proposed, you would need a dedicated room that is 16x16 then, correct? More typical would be about the floor space of two bedrooms. So is it more cost efficient to have a house correctly sized for your needs, or add two additional bedrooms to try to gain cooling efficiency? I would think that simply closing off those rooms would likely provide more gain than the thermal mass thing. |
Luftkoph
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 10:19 am: |
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Open the windows, get used to the heat...
thats it to the T, I in my youth lived in a house in Fla. no heat no a/c man up you sissies
Although I would not want to do it now |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 10:30 am: |
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Blake its worse than you think We have Catalog engineers and gov selected sensible heat ratios Mandated eers that do not work in swampy so fla.
LEEDs is such a scam you can get more points for paint and packaging trash than proper system design. I walked out of a LEEDs training seminar and never looked back.
The LEEDS organization is being sued a large complex owner built to the highest standards and his buildings are pretty much unusable and lost many tenants due to excess energy costs
Green building has been proven to be pretty much a scam
Architects tend cheap out and let interns do their hvac design and the state allows it if the individual systems are under 40 tons. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 12:25 pm: |
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I don't think energy efficient building is a scam, just the whole contrived LEEDS scheme. I think you agree.
I'm astounded that you have architects so arrogant as to assume the role of HVAC engineers. That's a shame. I hope they also bear the burden of the damages caused by their mistakes.
Ever hear an architect relay accounts of bad contractors? Michele has yet to take my advice in dealing with the worst of them (a swift kick to their tender parts).
There are bad actors in all professions and trades. Luckily there are exceptional ones too.
Will be interesting to see how the Bush 43 library, a LEED "Platinum" building/site at my alma mater SMU, will fare in continued operation. They probably had some decent architects and engineers working that project.
I helped Michele study for her LEEDS certification, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Before that we'd both attended an AIA meeting where the LEED people were presenting their sales pitch for their concocted scheme for creating yet another building regulatory organization. I immediately saw the hucksterism in play and it disgusted me.
The same thing is happening in structural engineering. The design codes are being rewritten by a bunch of eggheads and lawyers with little to no connection to reality. It's maddening. More and more often I just skip the new codes and use sound engineering judgement (the way aircraft are designed and analyzed). If pressed, I can perform the convoluted cookbook code-book analysis and show a good code-compliant factor of safety; it just takes a day to do so. Thank goodness for spreadsheets!
We're at the point now where we have three different design wind speed maps, one for each of three different classifications of structure/building. The tie to reality is gone. We now factor loads instead of analyzing to actual strength. The justification is statistical, which I understand and recognize as sound science. I just hate the way that approach divorces the analysis from tangible reality. Eggheads and lawyers like it.  |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 07:22 pm: |
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Blake Expert witness work and failed building designs are more profitable than doing plan and spec jobs.
As we grow the never ever don't even say Union company. I am going to hire and train my own architects MEPS I have a great out side structural engineering firm.
In the next 18 months we will have a state license in every division no more sub contractors. We may let some depts sub to selected contractors. Byron and I are now at the point Equip companies send work to us as the only qualified contractors on several types of units. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 09:36 pm: |
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could just go with a stone tiled floor, I know every time I put my feet on it, no matter how hot it is outside - its is always damn chilly. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Sunday, April 28, 2013 - 07:10 am: |
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Ken is right. Mold is Gold. We own a Ductz franchise. The number of companies that specialize in repairing contaminated buildings is amazing.
Plumbing leaks, and roof leaks account for MOST of the work in single family homes.
The commercial end, especially the large apartment complexes are indeed a gold mine. The HVAC in these places are always "value engineered". The most common equipment has a latent heat ratio of less than 15%. Add in incorrect air side design,and non existent maintenance by the owners/managment companies and it gets worse.
I visited a 200 unit rental property recently where the IAQ conditions were so bad, they closed the place and moved the tenants to another property. The average relative humidity in the apartments was 74%, with some as high as 85%. In one, aspergillus on a wall looked like an alien invasion. The whole wing is being torn down.
Halfast engineering, halfast specification, halfast installation, halfast maintenance.
Gee, who would guess that wrong equipment installed on a duct system that moves half the needed airflow would be a problem.
I would hate to be the T&B company that tested and certified that job. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 12:19 am: |
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What was the root cause? |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 05:28 am: |
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The root cause was the poor equipment choice. High sensible/low latent capacity. Suitable only for dry climates such as the desert southwest.
Add in the fact that too many people cannot understand that duct engineering intended to be used on sheet metal duct with properly designed fittings does not work on an el-cheapo flex duct system. Your total capacity is the direct result of the amount of air volume you move through the system.
The systems in question were 1.5 ton capacity. The ones I checked averaged around 350 CFM. Cheap, poorly designed and executed duct design.
On a similar note: Do not use pleated high efficiency air filters in your home unless it was specifically designed for them. They will KILL your A/C system by reducing the air flow in a system that statistically has insufficient air flow to begin with.
A study done by the largest HVAC contractor in New York shows that nearly 80% of all AC systems have insufficient airflow. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 07:31 am: |
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FAST with DOE and Energy Code regs some time there is no proper choice. I have found with the high 30 cfm per sleeping room out door air requirements separation of Cooling and Dehumidification is required on many DX systems.
Applied systems are the way to go! Back to 4 pipe chillwater systems with heat recovery reheat and a boiler. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 07:46 pm: |
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Just wheeled in from work. It was pretty warm out today. My old skin just can't take the solar load like it used to.
It is 73 degrees, and 46% R/H in my studio! I love coming home on a hot day! |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 08:13 pm: |
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I know what you mean I like that in my bedroom cool dry.
Today was computer code day 800 lines of bacnet code. Found the issue 1 tower has quiet drive fans low rpm two fan on a single drive, towers 2-3 have 1140 rpm motors on starters. Rapid restarting during heat exchanger drain down will recycle fans occasionally all motors are supervised with CTs for status feedback.
Timing of status has fairly wide range ok for starters but the drive winds down with out DC injection braking small motors so wind milling isn't a problem. The drive winds down and restarts several times and the supervisory CTs pick up the motor running as a stuck starter Locking out the tower pump and fans. So I have to rewrite the program or separate the algorithm for that tower and rewrite the rotation subroutine. ARRRGH and do it while the system is on line and running. |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2013 - 03:47 pm: |
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You're doing it wrong!
http://boingboing.net/2013/05/01/300-gallons-of-ur ine-stashed-i.html |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2013 - 06:29 pm: |
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I have a 1300sq ft. ranch, and retreat to the basement in summer, last year I kept the upstairs at 80f most of the summer, with a window AC keeping the humidity down. Ceiling fans in living and kitchen rooms ( connected with large arch ) circulate air when I'm home, and a floor fan pumps cool air into bedrooms for night time.
Marginal? yes, but this year I'm going from a 10k btu window AC to a 18k btu ductless setup for the main living space, ( about 600 sq ft ) Seer 20 or better.
The only real question I have is it it worth it to go with the Mitsubishi Hyper heat pump style? The Seer ratings are comparable, but the "hyper heat" claims to be more efficient and can heat down past zero f. So is it worth it/is it more efficient?
Normal winter heat is from a 38k btu boiler and underfloor radiant. ( nice to walk around barefoot in the morning ) It just seems smart to have backup and/or spot heat.
I went through 1, 500 gallon tank the first winter. The Propane company signed me up for monthly fill ups, and forgot me. Woke up in March with a 55 f house on a Sunday Morning.... and no propane for stove to make breakfast..... 2 hours later a truck pulls up and dumps 40gallons in, with the service guy laughing after hearing the story. He claimed that one service call wiped out the profit for the year.
During the 2 week blackout following the big Ice storm of '91. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ gallery?Site=A2&Date=20110303&Category=MULTIMEDIA0 3&ArtNo=103030802&Ref=PH
I heated the house with gallon jugs of hot water ( old school gas water heater ) placed around living room and around parents bed. Once cooled, each jug was dumped into tub, ( to reclaim the rest of the heat ) and refilled. Labor intensive, but workable, short term. Sweaters and quilts. Jimmie Carter would have been proud.
Going the other way? Condensation is the problem I worry about. I'd suggest a floor fan to circulate the cool and a tarp to protect the floor. Do the initial experiment in just one or two rooms. If you lay down towels under the jugs and a tarp under that, the water should evaporate before you get serious puddles, but that just cranks up the humidity problem. The condensation on the jugs probably won't be enough to control the humidity, even if you have a way to drain the condensate.
I've looked at some thermal mass heat/cool systems using large tanks of water in a semi-passive solar heating system. These designs really should be integrated into the home design for efficiency and structural safety.
One suggestion I have not heard here is a buried air intake system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-coupled_heat_e xchanger
Care has to be taken to avoid humidity/mold problems, and critter infestation. Electric costs are fairly low, and the effectiveness depends on soil temperature and local climate.
If I was building a house today, It would have serious insulation, several passive solar design features, and a ground source heat pump. ( also a ground level ride-in man cave with tap, big screen tv and....and.... ) I like the radiant floor, but have learned that it takes hours to heat things up so set back thermostats are nigh useless. The house cycles up & down about 3 deg. |
Kenm123t
| | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 01:09 am: |
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AEs I have a Mitsu in my garage love it never had the heat on The new one Is supposed to be very good.
The geo thermal is great for hybrid in floors systems Honda has a system engine driven of course for hot water heat Looks very good but not sold in So Fla |
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