| Author | Message | ||
     Psykick_machanik |
Patton Oswald: "Boston. ••••••• horrible. I remember, when 9/11 went down, my reaction was, 'Well, I've had it with humanity.' But I was wrong. I don't know what's going to be revealed to be behind all of this mayhem. One human insect or a poisonous mass of broken sociopaths. But here's what I DO know. If it's one person or a HUNDRED people, that number is not even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population on this planet. You watch the videos of the carnage and there are people running TOWARDS the destruction to help out. (Thanks FAKE Gallery founder and owner Paul Kozlowski for pointing this out to me). This is a giant planet and we're lucky to live on it but there are prices and penalties incurred for the daily miracle of existence. One of them is, every once in awhile, the wiring of a tiny sliver of the species gets snarled and they're pointed towards darkness. But the vast majority stands against that darkness and, like white blood cells attacking a virus, they dilute and weaken and eventually wash away the evil doers and, more importantly, the damage they wreak. This is beyond religion or creed or nation. We would not be here if humanity were inherently evil. We'd have eaten ourselves alive long ago. So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think, 'The good outnumber you, and we always will'." Well said I believe he nailed it with that. | ||
| 86129squids |
  That, THAT, is the BEST quote about the Boston incident and the human condition in general I could ever expect to hear, and I didn't expect it. Truly wise. I shall endeavor to live up to that statement. Together, let's do the math to prove it true, once and forever. | ||
| Blake |
That's a bit deluded sounding to me, at least on the grand scheme. Certainly good souls can be found everywhere, even amongst the most widespread evil. I'd put it more like "All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Evil can spread like cancer, eating away entire societies. See Naziism, Marxism, and Islamo-fascism. | ||
| 86129squids |
Not deluded at all, Blake. Oswalt argues that, on the grand scheme, incidents like this, including even 9/11/01, represent evil as a statistical low minority. As I was typing what I posted above, I thought deeply about fascism, and its influence in modern Islam. I chose not to even address that issue, as heavy on our minds as it may be. There is a rare purity in Oswalt's statement. I am concerned about the numbers, but not that much. Oswalt's statement holds true, no delusion involved. Reread it as I did, several times. Is the glass half-full, or half-empty? Is human nature inherently good, or evil? How many Christian denominations in our past, and present, argue over these questions? I, for one, agree with the content of the OP. | ||
| 86129squids |
And, BTW, Oswalt the atheist names our existence as a "miracle". Discuss. | ||
| 86129squids |
Weird. Atheists, despite refusing the existence of God/Goddess/Yahweh/Allah/Christ/Buddha/Shiva/Ahuru mazda/Quetzalquattal/Kohhauannasquuatzi/... et al... still use the same words and language to describe the human condition. I've become an agnostic, some time ago, due to my studying. I have a sense that there might be a Gaia, God, hopefully something like a Goddess, with the grace and love of mine and your mothers... and the strength and resolve of our fathers. I'll wait and see. | ||
| Alfau |
(Message edited by alfau on April 18, 2013) | ||
| Alfau |
if humanity were inherently evil Depends what you read. Ro 5:12 As for too much study. Ecc12:12 | ||
| Blake |
The two views may not be mutually exclusive, at least in most modern societies. But I wonder what might be your view had you experienced Nazziism as a Jew in Auschwitz, or had you experienced being an African shackled in the hellish cesspool ship's hold of an Atlantic slave trader. And why or how on atheism there is anything to inform the topic is beyond comprehending. The cold hard truth is that on atheism nothing is of any consequence, on atheism no matter what anyone might do or believe, the end is the same, oblivion in the inevitable frozen wasteland heat-death of the universe. On atheism a human being has no more worth than a spec of dust. On atheism there can be no good and no evil. As Dostoevsky correctly concluded, without G_d, all things are permissible. How convenient, if one is atheist. For some additional serious study on the questions that you are wrestling with, see http://www.reasonablefaith.org/scholarly-articles. One of the author's texts is required reading at Oxford University's school of Philosophy. Have you read any Alvin Plantinga? | ||
| Blake |
"So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think, 'The good outnumber you, and we always will'." I'd finish that statement quite differently, more like... So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, look it in the eye and oppose it, and call it to the attention of good people everywhere. All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing, like merely thinking to oneself that "the good outnumber you, and we always will." Freedom isn't free. Evil unopposed begets more evil. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think, 'The good outnumber you, and we always will'." I don't find that deluded at all, an admirable sentiment to my mind, & very well put. Personally I find it more deluded to bring God (any God) into it, one doesn't need to be religious of any stamp to know the difference between right & wrong, good & evil. More evil has been done in this world in the name of Gods than for any other reason. I've no intention of getting into a religious debate here, you have your views I have mine, I'll continue to be a good person, leave it at that. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Grumpy there is one true God the others are the face of evil | ||
| Cityxslicker |
There is evil in the world, and it gets the most media coverage - because the mass of men lead boring quiet tedious lives that are not the memes of popular media attention. | ||
| 86129squids |
Whoops- to clarify things, I had Wiki'ed Oswalt prior to my subsequent posts, noticed that he claims to be an atheist. Then, re-reading and digesting again what he said in the OP, made me wonder at his use of language such as "miracle, "good", "evil", "darkness", and such. Oswalt made a wise, lucid, and well-put statement on the topic of the Boston massacre. Blake, the Edmund Burke quote you mention is also true. That is all. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Grumpy there is one true God the others are the face of evil Was there supposed to be a smiley face after that Ken?  | ||
| Blake |
I too found the comment about the author's religion peculiar. Innes, I think you've misinterpreted my statements. Of course atheists can do good. I was talking about what the atheist philosophy entails. Most atheists are not nihilists and most cannot live according to the logical conclusions of their world view, that there is no good, no evil, just cold naturalism where nothing is of any more value than anything else, inanimate material included. >>> More evil has been done in this world in the name of Gods than for any other reason. 1. Is that really true? See Marxism, Nazziism, Japanese Imperialism, the African slave trade... Well ok, Islamo-fascism. The Christian crusades? 2. But so what? Evil men do evil and try to justify it for all kinds of reasons. Accepting the evil doers' justifications as truth is a leap too far and too eager. 3. It may well be true that more good has been done in serving the will of G_d as taught by Jesus Christ than for any other reason. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
To answer your points Blake. 1. The Nazis claimed to have "God on their side". The german soldiers belt buckle in WWII was inscribed with "Gott mit uns" or "God with us" & as for the Japanese, their Emperor WAS their god. Marxism a doctrine that I grant you wasn't driven by religion, but against it. The Slave trade, just wrong horrifically wrong. 2. Accepting the evil doers' justifications as truth is a leap too far and too eager. No leap on my part, such evil is unjustifiable period. 3. I think probably that more good is done in the world because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO than any other reason. The majority of the world's population is non-Christian & the vast majority of all of them do the right thing & live good lives guided by their internal moral compass, no matter their creed or culture. The problems arise when some charismatic person convinces a group that they are superior to others & that those others have less value than they, & are therefore inferior, be it for doctrinal or religious reasons. History has shown this to be the case for thousands of years, it's a depressing thought to me, & I envy you your certitude & blind faith that shields you, even though I can't accept that personally. I'm not anti-God, I just can't go along with people who tell me what I should believe. My moral compass guides me in the right direction, I was raised with "Christian Values" which I find all too lacking in society these days, & I say that sitting in a "Catholic" country. So I'll just carry on being a "good" chap while trying not to get f*****d by some ineffable being's representative on this planet. Love Light & Peace to ALL. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Marxism is anti Religion - they don't like the competition for power, graft, propaganda and followship that religion seems to have locked down. If there is a solution outside of the accepted party line - it must be exterminated; it is the Communist version of Highlander There can be only one. | ||
| Aesquire |
Actually, Marxism IS a religion. Their God is a Jealous God, and can tolerate no other. You see that in leftist attitudes on traditional faith all the time. You have the rest of it spot on. I didn't make that up, that's from a Politburo member, ( rough quote ) Communism isn't an economic system, it's a way for a small group to control a large one. Mr. Grumpy has it partially right. More evil has been done by Government AS God than everything else. More people have been Murdered by and in the name of the Holy State in Europe and Asia than the Mongols, Tamerlane, and Both World wars. Combined. Throw in the Americas and Africa, and The Worship of Power has killed more worldwide than disease. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM BTW, according to my figuring, the numbers listed are low. Mao deserves 3 times the credit. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-marath on-bombings.html?partner=MYWAY&ei=5065&_r=1& Ongoing manhunt. More explosives, Police dead, violent confrontation. I wonder if we'll ever get the truth on these guys? Despite the timing, doesn't seem like a Reichstag Fire operation. To the original point. We have Sheepdogs, and medics and volunteers in every disaster. Mostly no one who isn't one notices or ever hears. There are far more good people than bad. There are far fewer actively helpful people than drones, but the thing is you usually don't see them. They ARE there. Most run from the scary and bad. Some few run toward it. | ||
| Thumper74 |
'The good outnumber you, and we always will' There's a reason that there are more good people than sociopaths/psychopaths. | ||
| Psykick_machanik |
glad someone brought up Nazi's, Imperial Japanese, and slavery.....We outnumbered them and kicked the SH*T out of them! Be good and carry a BIG stick. | ||
| Blake |
Scientific research says otherwise. See http://www.prisonexp.org/ This is why a powerful central govt is so dangerous. See Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Hirohito, Pol Pot, Castro, the Kim Regimes, Saddam Hussein... The vast majority of humans will go right along with evil so long as they are part of a group and/or acting under "official" authority. | ||
| Psykick_machanik |
But are we better off and more enlightened now? As a society do we not look for bettering all of mankind above our self's? To strive to make this a better place. Perfect...NOT by a long shot, but better than we were 100 years ago. As we endeavor to better ourselfs over the long march of time the human condition on a whole will inveriabily rise also. I.E. We will always outnumber the "bad guys". As a counter to your point...Just look where those people on your list are now....They are gone, because the good guys rose up and dealt with them. Were working on the Kim regimes right now. I do agree that people will follow bad leaders and do horific things which is why we need to be ever vigilant | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, that study is interesting, but deeply flawed. The subjects of that experiment were chosen. They did not choose themselves. Yes, there are and probably always will be bad men who gravitate to Prison Work. Sadistic men & women. I'd say the majority are good folk, even in "one company" prison towns where generations work at the local prison, because it's what's available, and expected. But they were not drafted by lot to be guards & prisoners, they had a mind set, and an institutional tradition to draw on. Still. There is a point to the idea that Prisons make people worse. It's a school for robbery and murder. The Romans hated to send someone to prison. Considered it a terrible violation of personal rights. If you messed up, a little, a night or so in jail, community service, done. Real crime? Death. Hard core crime? Slavery. ( which meant, death after hard labor ) Most would argue that our enlightened system is far better. I wonder. Psykick, Better now? In spots, small places, far better. As a society? Look for bettering all mankind? Bogus. No. That's not the purpose, the reality, or the goal of any society I've ever studied. Much of the "enlightenment" trumpeted as a reason we are so superior to the dark and distant past is hype and propaganda. Take, for example, the 1950's. Ancient history to some, yesterday to others. Both the "Happy Days" illusion of tranquil suburbia, and the "how primitive could you be?" of the believer in Modern Times are only part right and lots wrong. Yes, in the 1950's we Built Things! The Fastest planes, the fastest cars, actual working hardware. We do lose less test pilots today, but they've little to test. The last hard effort by our government to build a space ship was the "Orient Express" program. Generated a mountain of paper, a hillside of campaign donations, and one fuel tank. That leaked. "We" Can't build a spaceship today, It's not going to get funded, NASA forgot how, and it's not their job anymore. Private Industry can, and will, if we let them OTOH, the '50's were a time of racial strife, economic troubles, and impending Nuclear War. ( does this remind you of anything? ) Better than 100 years ago? Yes, and no. Better technology. Better "human rights" in some places, worse in others. 100 years ago marks the beginning of the rise of one of the most murderous, most evil ideologies ever to see the Sun. See anything with the name "peoples republic" and reflect on the misery. Worse than the old Kings? Yes. The Czars, Mad kings, the Mongols, all fall far short of the death toll the last century has seen. More murdered in the name of the People than died of disease, ever. Mixed bag, all in all. If not for the fact that in the 20th Century England & It's Former Colonies banded together to fight the forces of slavery, this conversation could not happen. The more subtle loss of freedom from the same ideology is less remarked upon, but I reference the fellow assaulted by police in Texas and his son lied to and interrogated, while on a Boy Scout nature hike. The good will always outnumber the bad. The Sheep will always outnumber the Wolves. Unfortunately, that doesn't help. The Sheep will always outnumber the Sheepdogs, too, but that's ok. If the Sheepdogs ( see the Heroes in Boston ) are allowed to guard the Sheep, the Wolves lose. But we will always lose some Sheep. It's just the truth. Perhaps I'm a bit too cynical. It's not like the Government has announced that they can detain me, in secret, without trial, or kill me at the whim of Our Glorious Leader, right? Right? | ||
| Gregtonn |
The vast majority of humans will go right along with evil so long as they are part of a group and/or acting under "official" authority. It makes me sad that you would believe humans are more inclined to evil than good. G | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
OTOH, the '50's were a time of racial strife, economic troubles, and impending Nuclear War. ( does this remind you of anything? ) You forgot the HUAC. | ||
| Buellinmke |
If you believe this, well then, you're a coward. I guess it doesn't come as a surprise, considering how you wish to unconstitutionally legislate based upon religious beliefs. Move to Iran if you want to live in a theocracy. | ||
| Aesquire |
Ah, yes, HUAC!. Beginning with a true premise, that the Communist Party had infiltrated the State Dept. and was rife in the Entertainment industry, the Inquisition did far more harm than good. The vast majority of humans will go right along with evil so long as they are part of a group and/or acting under "official" authority. Historically true, obvious today it's still true. It makes me sad that you would believe humans are more inclined to evil than good. No, no, you miss the point! Good people often let evil take power because they don't see the harm until it's too late. Ask the nice hard working folk of Germany about the 1930's. Or the normal folk of Iran, Iraq, Egypt today. You think the rape gangs wandering the Streets of Cairo looking for a Christian to gang rape are the "normal folk"? No. They are Muslim Brotherhood thugs raised in hatred and intolerance. Those who would actively fight evil are a minority of the people. And it's not as simple as all that. It's an old cliche that "if you'd only known" that Hitler was going to do such evil, you could have stopped him.... but you couldn't know, right? So, hypothetically..... If you suspected that a certain politician ( call him Sam ) was after absolute power and would, someday, be an evil dictator, what could you do about it? The guy who murdered Adolph Hitler at age 23, and "saved the world" would be convicted of murder. No one would think him a hero. Go kill Sam today, and get convicted of murder. The power to see the future acts dimly and if accurate, no one will pay attention. ( See Cassandra ) Now, we may prepare ourselves to see far more pictures of 2 of the 3 suspects in the Marathon bombing 24/7. They are now Famous! | ||
| Sifo |
I'm surprised that none have brought up a very critical point. One in particular. It isn't a matter of are most people good or evil. It's a matter of most people are sheep. Sheep tend to not differentiate between the wolf and the sheep dog. They will react to both in much the same way, simply being satisfied that they are not on the dinner menu today. By the time it becomes obvious that they are on the menu in the near future, it's far too late for them to do anything about it on their own. That's how evil is allowed to flourish. |
