| Author | Message | ||
     99savage |
Nukeblue this caught my eye... 22mag over 410. that would be cool Butt ugly relative to the Model 24. Purchased mine in the late 50's, been my companion ever since. Breaks down into a tidy package, that can be lashed on to other gear. Remarks: * 22 surprisingly accurate * 410 not so useful for upland. Difficult to raise the hammer fast enough, 410 marginal. * @ 90gr, 410 slugs useless for anything bigger than say a dog (Hey, Obama did it) As previously mentioned, a few years ago discovered the old gal had a trick up her sleeve. - Tried some buck shot. - Dead center, hand sized patterns. At 25 yards would expect anything up to & including black bear to go down. If the "all to h'" scenario was foraging only would be my choice, all the while wishing the 410 was a 20ga - 22/20ga was made but last I checked now expensive. B.T.W.: esquire My Model 24 was one of the 1st experiments w/ plastics in firearms. - The stock is plastic. - The trade name was something like "Teninite" } | ||
| Aesquire |
I also fondly remember the Remington Nylon 66. One trick shooter shot a huge pile of hand tossed wood blocks with the Nylon 66 as a demonstration of durability and accuracy. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rem_nylon_rifles.htm The .410 has received a lot of attention lately because of the Taurus Judge line of .410/.45 Colt revolvers & revolver rifles. Then S&W got into the act with a .410/.45 Colt/.45 ACP model. More buck loads are available, and the new Winchester PDX load with 3 "destructor discs" ( points for identifying obscure reference ) plus shot has received rave reviews. The 12ga. PDX version with 3 buck shot and a slug near duplicates the American Revolution load of "buck and ball". Worked 200+ years ago, works now. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
99savage, a great idea and I remember at one time Savage a model 24 made a 20 ga. under a .223 upper barrel. Now that would be nice! | ||
| Scottorious |
I have been thinking very hard about this lately. I think depending on what the situation is a firearm is not that great of an idea. If your bugging out and on the move the extra weight might not be worth it and risking a gunfight is not worth it. A shot from a .22 that breaks the skin anywhere on your body could likely prove fatal. If your bugging in and are defending against marauders your one gun against 5 guns is likely not enough and even if you do push them back once they come back with more people or you just blew your cover to another gang or they just smoke you out of your house. For my safety I'll suggest you get the biggest heaviest gun available and carry in excess of 500 rounds. That way I can easily run away from you. For my money I'm investing in skills that cant be easily taken away from me. Cardio and muscular endurance. Trapping, tracking and evading. Learning to use primitive weapons that can be locally made without modern tooling. Most "gun nuts" don't practice mag changes. So if I can stay alive for 16 to 30 shots which judging by the stat that in Iraq and Afghanistan that the USA fired 250k rounds per kill seems pretty plausable that I could hold out for 30 rounds. Then stage an attack while the assailant fumbles with his magazine or run as fast as I can during that same time. If I can get 10 seconds of lead time I could be nearly 75 meters away which makes a shot with a handgun pretty hard and a properly zig zagging target with a rifle would be difficult as well. For me instead of range time I'll be running and hoping that everyone decides they need an assault rifle and a side arm with 200 rounds for each. | ||
| Scottorious |
I also think a 50 cal round in a shotgun would be a pretty uneventful show. In Afghanistan, in the process of loading an unloading our crew served weapons before and after each mission a buddy had a loose 50 cal round. It was pretty dirty so he left it free and was going to dispose of it. It was sitting on the roof of the 1151 when the driver took off without warning my buddy. I was standing there cleaning my MK19 when I turned and saw the round fall from the roof. Expecting something bad to happen it seemed like slow motion. The round perfectly hit a rock and hit the primer and make a really weak PFFF sound as it ignited the powder. However without a thick barrel surrounding the entire casing the soft brass just split and the actual bullet went 2 inches. Leading me to a shotgun. Sure the brass would be 80 percent surrounded by the barrel but because the actual bullet would just be hanging out without proper support on the front face of the brass I think the explosion would open the case around the bullet and direct the hot gas around the bullet and out the barrel without really doing much. I Can't say that for 100 percent certainty but. Like a blowgun. I could maybe put more force behind a proper blowgun dart than a 500 psi supply of air behind just a needle in the same blowgun. | ||
| Blake |
No reason to not be fit AND armed and able to defend oneself. I agree on the catching critters for food though. Way easier using traps. I think when most folks talk about an extreme scenario, they are thinking a hurricane Katrina, or LA riots type of scenario where they may need to defend against cowardly looters and the like. It just doesn't take much to turn away looters, pretty much any show of deadly force. | ||
| Scottorious |
I was thinking that a small localized situation like that may be a good reason to have a firearm, however I also think that nothing I have in my physical possession is worth dying for. If I know the situation is only isolated such as hurricane katrina, then I think getting out of town as quickly as I can would be wise and just leave everything at home. Chances are that in Isolated incidents that outside law-enforcement will be brought in and confiscating weapons anyway. | ||
| Scottorious |
I am not trying to pretend to be an expert I just recently started thinking about the disadvantages to firearms in an SHTF scenario. I have become fascinated with human responses to these situations and have changed the way I "prep". Just as Blake said people are often times very cowardly and weak. Studying military combatives and their approach to defeating what is known as the "universal fighter" shows the animalistic nature people often degrade to. Any youtube video you find of people in streetfights that have no formal training can be seen just swinging for the fences hoping to quickly knock their opponent out. facing an opponent like that becomes easy if one remains calm and focused and just buys their time until their opponent becomes tired or calms down. However even when these fights are won the cowardly people will often come back with more people which becomes very dangerous. We are taught in combatives that you can pretty much bet that the guy whos buddy shows up first will win the fight. Which brings me back to the firearm thing. Yes winning one battle will buy you some time but cowardly people find strength together and even if just to "save face" they will come back. One competent firearm user could easily defend a properly set up house fairly easily but what is the defense against molotov cocktails and burning you out of your home? Putting your family in that situation is a very scary thing. Are guns bad things to have in these situations? I would say no, unless all your eggs are in your magazine so to speak. I also think if you do have a firearm that any weapon that's broken down and tied to your gear might as well be pitched into a river. If your in an SHTF scenario you are always hunting for food therefore you don't need to break your weapon down. | ||
| 99savage |
Aesquire I also fondly remember the Remington Nylon 66. One trick shooter shot a huge pile of hand tossed wood blocks with the Nylon 66 as a demonstration of durability and accuracy. Remember reading about that feat, stunt, whatever. . . . Think he shot 100,00 blocks from the air without cleaning. Don't get around much anymore but among real survivalists encountered, who trekked out into the boonies for protracted periods and subsisted mostly on rabbits they shot the Remington 66 was "the one gun". - They thought nothing was more reliable in sub zero temperatures and with no cleaning. | ||
| Aesquire |
Scottorious. I see a few flaws in your setup/rationalization. Yes, "no material possession" may be worth dying for. How about lives? I'm not calling for you to shoot looters at Walmart, that's vigilante stuff. What about the gang that wants to rape your wife? Or daughter? Or son? I suspect the Texas concept of "needs killing" will be quite clear to you at that moment. Get out of town?  IF you have advance warning, AND you flee the disaster BEFORE everyone else, and I'm talking days before, not hours, then MAYBE you can get out of Dodge before the highway becomes a parking lot. Let's see.... Normal? Not much in the way of long range forecast Hurricanes there, but an oncoming Blizzard, sure. You just might be able to run out of the path of a storm. But what about terrorist attacks, Earthquakes, ( not likely, but the New Madrid Quake wasn't likely either. Look it up ) Industrial disasters ( Bhopal ) or, say, a train derailment of Ammonia or Chlorine.......... All temporary bad days. For fall of civilization, again, run early, you might make it. Wait until told to run? Parking lot of doom. I do agree that the odds are quite good that weapons confiscation is probable, even likely. Hence the "one gun" being easily concealed idea has merit. Btw, just breaking skin with a .22 is not a death sentence. With minimal self treatment, it's not that different than sharp rusty rebar or any of a million things. A gut shot, OTOH, is almost always fatal if not treated fairly promptly with antibiotics. The outside lube on .22 rimfire bullets tends to carry lint into the wound. What's survivable on an arm is not in an internal cavity. There's a lot of hype about that kind of thing. A .45 ACP in the pinkie does not blow off an arm, or spin a guy around, for example. You might also be right about a .50BMG in a break action shotgun. I'm still going to want the video. | ||
| Scottorious |
I appreciate your opinions! I do agree that having people who depend on you changes things vastly. I am a 28 year old single guy. I can move about much easier than a family of 4 with a new born. Correct, blizzards, earthquakes, tornadoes are all possible events that could happen in my location and all can happen without much warning. I think any decision will be a hard one to make but quick thinking can save your life. I never said flee the area via car. I don't want to rely on more than I have to. In an earthquake if you fled in the few hours following the event with only what you could carry on your back you might get out while people are still in shock and a 4 people with small bags would not appear to be high value targets. I agree with you about the .22 wound being easily treatable. The knowledge of first aid is another highly valuable skill that can't be taken from you. What minimal treatment is now however might become more difficult in these situations and in periods of extended improper nutrition your body will be less likely to self heal. Minor injuries can become major injuries. | ||
| Scottorious |
99savage. I just looked up the nylon 66. I had never heard of that before. Looks pretty sweet. I would have to say that my one gun would be a .22 hands down. Interesting fact for you, a real survivalist that says he only ate rabbits might in fact not be a real survivalist. Rabbits are so lean that over consumption of rabbit meat without other sources of fat might actually kill you quicker than not eating at all, often times showing symptoms within a week. "Rabbit starvation" is the term. | ||
| 99savage |
Scottorious They told me that they tried to take porcupines whenever possible (there ain't many and they are reclusive) and ate rose hips for what passed as vegetables but mostly rabbits. B.T.W. Rose hips are quite palatable and I eat them whenever encountered but have never tried porky. | ||
| Scottorious |
Aesquire, I don't personally have a wife or children so I cannot honestly know what the thought of seeing your wife or daughter raped or killed in front of you feels like and feeling the need to protect them. I commend the devotion of people who will stand for others. I am not questioning your love for your family when I ask this but can anyone be 100% sure they could pull the trigger on another human? You can have 5000 hours of range time and be as prepared as you can be but when the need arises who will fold? There is plenty of evidence that even trained soldiers who could be argued to be defending people they loved(fellow soldiers) failed to pull the trigger in combat. In a book titled "On Killing" there were many stories of this. | ||
| Aesquire |
Me, I'm a peaceable guy. Big on no violence. To misquote Wolverine... ( or is it Sarte? Heinlein? ) If the other opens the door to violence, what comes out is his fault. A repeat, but you may have missed this. http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesa ndsheepdogs.html | ||
| Aesquire |
the .22 is a popular answer to this thread's question for many reasons. While not a "manstopper" by any gun magazine standard, the .22 is capable of game getting up to deer. ( the preferred choice by the Native Americans in deer harvesting locally. AFAIK ) Some reasons you and I have brought up would lean one toward an easily concealable arm, in the event of confiscation. The reason for the confiscation may be naked over reach as in New Orleans after Katrina or by the trend to increasing tyranny & Imperial rule we are now living through. Whatever the reasons or reality of government reaction to armed citizens, You have a good point in that being visibly armed makes you a target for the looters. Evil men are always convinced that their ruthlessness makes them more powerful than the sheep. To prey on the visibly weak, old and small is not just tradition for wolves, it's good sense. An old, sweating, fat guy in expensive tacti-cool gear hauling around a Barrett .50 is a prime target. Alas, in the Country Of he Blind, a One Eyed Man is not King. | ||
| Aesquire |
Also, and this cannot be under rated, a .22 ( used to ) make for reasonable cost and more practice. A .416 that misses hurts the target far less than a .22 in the x ring. | ||
| Macbuell |
When it comes to defending my wife and child, I will do what it takes. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
the 22 is a man stopper ... if you soak the tips in a liquid rendition of rat poison - a nice anticoagulant it degrades over time, but for a static jam need, bb's soaked in the same will do incredible damage. crushed glass, screws, roof nails and sniped barbed wire 'jacks' will saw through the soft stuff too. when the guns and ammo are gone - it is time to get creative... and devious. | ||
| Aesquire |
City, check out the "slingshot channel" on youtube. Btw, use of poisoned ammo is a direct ticket to a First Degree Premeditated Murder charge. Isn't it more "fair" to just place a nice group between the eyes? ( practice to be skilled is not Premeditation like soaking bullets in poison. ) Or for body armor wearing goons, Femoral artery. ( Never mess with a medically trained person, they know where the easily broken bits are ) | ||
| Scottorious |
enough poison remains on the bullet to bring down a grown person? Interesting. If I'm going to have one gun it has to be a .22. Trying to think of the last resort situations where I would in fact have to fight instead of run. I want more bullets and the ability to send large volumes of fire downrange quickly. A .22 would certainly allow someone to rapidly put multiple rounds into the same area due to low recoil. I also can feel free to shoot more freely in my house knowing that a .22 wont easily go through walls putting my family in danger from my own bullets anyway. What could be worse than repelling intruders only to find out your errant shots killed a family member. | ||
| Scottorious |
How many people reading this thread actually own their "one gun". If you do own your "one gun". Is it always with you? If not, what is your strategy from the point you realize you need your weapon until you have your weapon. Sadly for me and maybe this is why I have developed my strategy is that in IL I will not always have my weapon on me. It doesn't matter what caliber your weapon is if it's sitting nicely in a climate controlled gun safe while you find yourself confronted in your back yard by three armed individuals. | ||
| Cowboy |
More deer is killed in my area with a 22 and a spt light than all big rigfles and shootgus combined. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Scott: I have a 5.56 AR15 from Troy as well as a S&W MP15-22, so I own both that I'd be interested in. Its only 'on' me if im home, never leave teh house with it unless im going shooting. But to your scenario - this is a thread about crap getting out of control, which 3 armed men in your backyard would definitely be stuff getting wild, i dont think it really fits the theme. my point is that we're talking a serious meltdown in society (i think its already happened) with political or economic failings. In that situation one would be more aware of the situation and likely have their weapon on them at all times. Just my opinion on your post though. city - do you actually have experience with the poison or simply going on what you read online? | ||
| Scottorious |
I don't know how three armed individuals in your back yard is outside the realm of possibility in an SHTF scenario? I tend to lean to the side of things being a slow meltdown also but I think its within the realm of chance that things could happen when you least expect it. | ||
| Scottorious |
For people interested in survival but tired of the hearing the same things about making fire and shelter and how important water is. We all know those things and in many cases every book or television show is just a repeat. However I just recently picked up "The Tao of Survival" and my views on survival in every situation have changed. Training your eyes and brain to see better in the dark, Learning how to sense when people mean to do you harm. Learning to have the survival mentality. I found it very informative. | ||
| Cowboy |
A few things to mention for survivle is a few BIC lighteers some nylon string and a box of fish hooks. | ||
| Aesquire |
Good stuff. Don't forget the Space Blankets. Scottorious has a good point on having a weapon available or with you in the event of bad things. If you live where concealed carry is illegal, where possession of a gun is illegal, and the odds of you getting caught are high, you may not be armed with a reasonable chance of getting away with it. The "odds of getting caught" are highly variable to person, place and time. Young, bearded, on a motorcycle? Scruffy dress, dirty jeans? Near a terrorist attack? Gadsden flag shirt worn near a government building? Are the local police well known and friendly? State Security protecting a Celebrity Governor? The closest "available" weapon may be at the nearest donut shop, and not obtained by safe or legal means, which decision may/probably will cost you your life, freedom, and property...... so you'd better have an excellent reason to steal the idling police car and trying to loot it before the rest of the force in the area tracks you down by the GPS beacon. Can't give that scenario/idiot plan a thumbs up. Don't forget that Atlatl's have a low noise signature and are more easily made than a bow. ( takes quite a bit of practice though, as does a bow ) | ||
| Aesquire |
The ideal sidearm has been described many times in fiction. "The Weapons Shops of Isher" had some real dandy self defense guns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shops_of_I sher The PPC's of Babylon 5, the gravity driven pulser pistols of Weber's "Honor Harrington" 'verse, the sixguns of the wild west, the rifles of Sharpe's men, Star Trek Phasers... etc. I'd be happy with a phone sized "phaser stun" capacity weapon. Strikes me as a minimally violent alternative. Alas, it's Fiction. Some stuff, I think fiction never thought of. The Nook gun was built and intended as a Royal Marine weapon to be fired from "the tops", small platforms on the masts of fighting ships. Marines would sharpshoot officers, gunners and NCO's to disrupt the other ships as they drew alongside, cannons firing and preparing for boarding. Often the Marines would have several men clinging to the rigging, reloading the muzzle loading rifles & smooth bores and passing them to a more stable Marine with a commanding shooting position. The Nook gun had 7 barrels in one unit with circumferential touch holes drilled breech to breech so that the flintlock would set them off in sequence with great speed. The pause while the powder burns into the barrel is the challenging part of shooting a flintlock, It's on a different time scale than modern guns. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I don't know how three armed individuals in your back yard is outside the realm of possibility in an SHTF scenario?" go inside, fetch weapon |
