| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rick, It calls to you... http://www.classicfirearms.com/papm85pv Well, maybe not that particular one. Maybe this one... http://www.impactguns.com/arsenal-slr-106u-ak-pist ol-kit-556x45-wcase-sling-30-rnd-clear-mag-slr106- u-kit-slr106-47.aspx Gun fever is tough to beat! | ||
| Aesquire |
The Original question is, in MHO, one that has no actual one answer. Some people are more recoil sensitive, others have visual issues with iron sights, Hand strength issues can make a blowback operated 9mm nigh impossible to cycle, and some are wizards with a handgun, while others can't hit the barn. Still, it's an interesting discussion. Blake, I understand FN has stopped shipping the Five-seveN pistol, At least last years model, (an issue with barrel twist, IIRC) and according to the FN forums, the new model will ship later in March, '13. A pistol like the Five-seveN with optics to take advantage of the inherent range has some appeal. At the Forum. some say the 5.7 is a bit difficult to reload, with a very narrow margin of error in powder loads, 5.7 start to 6.3 max grains. I suspect someone used to .17 Fireball or .22 Hornet reloading wouldn't have a big problem, but if all you've done is high volume .45 Colt, it'd be finicky. Myself, because of eyesight, prefer an optical sight, so I'm most likely to be happy with Quick Detach optics, with a Red dot & variable scope set up for one gun. That said, I don't have anything like, that... I also don't have lot of things I'd like. Scout scope mounted optics, BTW work very good for most shooting. A 2.5 x magnification or 1.5 x 8 mag long eye relief scope can be mounted on rifles that are difficult to mount a scope on properly. SKS, Lever actions, etc. can use a "scout scope" mount using the existing rear sight. When set to low magnification, you can shoot with both eyes open and with practice the brain will superimpose the cross hairs on the Universe. For many people. Not all. YMMV. I can't honestly say you get quicker acquisition of targets with the scout style mounted scope, over a normal mounted scope of the same magnification, because I've not used scopes with that low a power that way. Others have and may hove more informed opinions. | ||
| Rick_a |
The only reason I like the AR pistol concept is that the extension tube allows it to be shoulder fired, yet still be classified a pistol. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, Interesting info. I was wondering why the five seven is unavailable now. Just for fun... http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-Tactical-Pistol-825-bar rel-in-308-CAL-Semi-Auto---SA58TACPISTOL/productin fo/SA58TACPISTOL/ Not for small game. Rick, What prevents adding a pseudo compensator/stock to an AK variant pistol? Law varies by state, no? Not sure what the delineating factor is here in Texas. Time for some research. I have an idea. | ||
| Blake |
Still not clear... (10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches. So then what constitutes a "rifle"? | ||
| Cowboy |
A shot gun has a smooth bore rifle has rifles in athe barrel I have a pistol that has rifles in the barell and will shoot a 410 shell it has a one inch barrel if it is smooth bore it must be a min of 18 inch if it has rifles it can be any length you want. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Reload a few hundred rounds of .32 acp to learn how to manage powder. 3.2 grains or so, with .1 or .2 grains margin of error. And the brass, once ejected, apparently goes into low earth orbit. I'm still thinking I could be awfully effective in an awful lot of situations with something like a 10/22 with a red dot sight and the knowledge that I have 500+ rounds of ammo in a backpack. | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't forget the Space Blankets, micro stove, food & water/filter. Blake, that 7.62 pistol is going to hurt. Main Battle Rifle ammo is, for wimpy me, too much to be happy shooting as a pistol. Even in an AR model with padded buffer tube to shoulder, I'm reluctant. You, being a manly Texan, probably have no such qualms. Amazing amount of firepower in a compact form. Oh, yeah, it's going to hurt. In more than one way. Wear plugs AND muffs. I want a photo of the fireball. | ||
| Aesquire |
Like to put in a good word for the classic, 19th century, .45-70 in Marlin, Winchester or clone lever action. Or even a Remington Rolling block, Ruger #1, Sharps, etc. Advantages include enough power for anything on the continent, and in hot loaded form in a modern, strong action like a Ruger #1 or Marlin, anything that walks on the planet. Also works well with black powder, something a 5.7/.223/.357 Sig...... just plain won't. After all, it's a black powder cartridge. Downside is mass, of ammo if not gun, recoil on the high side of most folks comfort zone, and it's failings at being a good squirrel meat gatherer. | ||
| Rick_a |
The long and short of it is that a pistol is intended to be fired with one hand and does not have a stock. Once a stock is put on an AK pistol it will become an unregistered SBR. Getting it registered with the ATF prior to adding a stock requires the requisite paperwork and a $200 tax stamp. I would personally rather not have the gubment know what I've got. I've already got a bunch of mags, ammo, and reloading gear to go the AR route. As far as muzzle devices you can use whatever you choose. The AK-74 style (the true 24mm military style, not the cheap 14mm copies) brakes are very effective and aren't as loud as you'd think. The most effective way to shoot the AK pistols is to use a single point sling over the shoulder and put outward pressure against it. With a red dot or "iron dot" it's an effective method. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Just want to mention a .458SOCOM caliber AR-15. Fires a bulky cartridge....but it fires 250 grain game getters(2,000 fps,2,405 ft·lb) to 600 grain vehicle stoppers(subsonic). Uses the same AR lower and the SAME AR magazine. Swap uppers quickly back and fourth. The thirty round AR .223 magazine holds only ten.458 SOCOM rounds......does that make your 30 round mag 'legal' if you mark it .458 SOCOM ??? Interesting huh?  Direct from mfg: Rock River uppers......$775.00 Starline brass available next month. 250 rounds,$215.00 | ||
| Blake |
Rick, I stopped by the local gun store here in Kilgore during lunch hour today. Our law here is apparently intentionally vague. Obviously the difference between rifle and pistol is the barrel length and stock, but what exactly constitutes a stock? If a 6" buffer tube is ok, then what about a 12" counter-weight? I've seen the tension sling technique. I'd like to try it. Gun shop owner told me an interesting story. Farmer carried his AR style pistol in the truck with him along with a special piece of PVC with a "T" fitting on one end. So he had a pistol and some plumbing material. Darned if that piece of PVC didn't fit just dandy sliding onto the buffer tube. Huh. Strange coincidence ain't it? Prices are really coming down on the black rifles. | ||
| Blake |
Being able to use black powder would be valuable in an end times scenario. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"one thing to consider about the 22lr is reliability. they do not always go bang every time. In the mid '60s my brother bought a Marlin .22 LR auto loader. Of the first (and only) 20 rounds we tried to put through it we had 7 rounds fail to fire. It went right back to the hardware store where he bought it and was replaced by the newly released Ruger 10/22. We loaded it up with 10 rounds including the 7 "duds", they all fired. Since then I have fired tens of thousands of of .22 rim fire rounds in many different .22 rifles and pistols without a miss-fire. Maybe I'm just lucky. Reloads? Did you ever notice the number of gun reviews that go something like: I started out putting X number of X factory rounds through the gun then switched to a couple of boxes of reloads just to see if it could digest them. I have fired hand loaded sniper rounds but personally I only trust a small handful of people to load them and they spend hours loading a few rounds. G | ||
| Rick_a |
Blake, so far, the ATF has specifically approved only rubber tips on AR-15 pistol tubes. People are using foam covers, furniture tips and cane ends for this. Using cheek rests is ok as well. Anything that functions as an actual stock is a no no. Additionally, if the overall length to the bare muzzle is 26" or over a vertical forward grip can be used, converting a "pistol" to a "firearm." It's all pretty silly, really. If a length similar to a standard rifle stock is wanted, a rifle buffer assembly can be used legally. | ||
| Rick_a |
My plan is using a commercial carbine buffer extension (longer than mil-spec) with a thick rubber end giving me that 26," which with a VFG gives a compact shooting position that allows for perfect bone support of the support elbow, allowing accurate aimed fire. A strap-on cheek rest made for skeleton stocks will allow for proper optics use without my head being unnaturally craned over. A lot of people like the modern techniques of the support arm being thrust way out near the muzzle. While that works for so called dynamic shooting, this little gun will be too short for that, anyway. (Message edited by Rick_A on March 16, 2013) | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Being able to use black powder would be valuable in an end times scenario." Flintlock or matchlock? G | ||
| Aesquire |
It's hard to keep a match burning in the rain, that's why matchlock shooters in armies past wore large brim hats. Technically, flints are easier to find than primers in the wild, but do YOU know how to knap flint? The bits required for a flintlock aren't that big, but they do have to be roughly the right shape. ( yes, I DO know how to knap flint. I'd rather buy primers ) BPCR shooters with Sharps and Rolling Blocks shoot under 2 MOA at 500+ yard targets. That's considered far edge of range for .223's and such. ( except for match/varmint rifles, and then only with high skill and expert wind doping ) While I wouldn't want a .224 diameter bullet to hit me at 600 yards, as it's still well over BB gun power out there, a .455 diameter 300+ grain lead slug from a .45-70 will still drop a deer or bison, and is proven as a man stopper out past reasonable range. Medicine ball vs. tennis ball. I have a buddy with a legal AK pistol, ( NY has rules for weight as well as size & configuration, his is just under the limit ) and it's not pleasant to shoot, I, myself suck with it, and golly gee, it's loud. 7.62 x 39 is a bit harder kicker than 5.56 x 45 and while it's within my wimpy tolerance it's not really in the happy zone like a AR pistol as discussed above. You also have to consider direct gas vs. piston on an AR. ( of any kind ) You may have better reliability with a piston, easier to clean, and in some variations, no buffer tube. OTOH, it may not be as reliable, some designs are better than others, and it's not just the piston mechanism, it's bolt design. A badly designed piston gun will destroy the receiver with bolt tilt and metal shavings. Also having no buffer tube, while great for concealment, means no buffer tube to shoulder. Also more expensive. It's all a trade off. (Message edited by aesquire on March 16, 2013) | ||
| Blake |
Flintlock or matchlock? No thank you! LOL I'm thinking 12 ga shotgun. | ||
| Rick_a |
A properly set up gas gun will run just fine. They have been for some time. If it goes dry a little lube will keep it going. My 16" has a rifle length gas system. A few tweaks need to made to make it reliable all ammo, but it shoots smooth as can be. Same thing goes for a 10.5" carbine gas gun. The piston guns have adjustable gas blocks, but a properly tuned gas gun does not need such devices. I like the simplicity, lower weight, and the accuracy edge of a gas gun...though those LWRC's sure look nice. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...flints are easier to find than primers in the wild, but do YOU know how to knap flint? You see my point and yes I do. Without a method of reliably igniting that black powder you're back to throwing rocks or pointy sticks or sticks with knapped pointy rocks on the end of them. G | ||
| Sifo |
I guess I can always fall back on my compound bow. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I guess I can always fall back on my compound bow. And the aforementioned pointy sticks.  G | ||
| Sifo |
High tech pointy sticks! | ||
| Reepicheep |
With tons (literally) of scrap steel and other metals around, it would be long time before you need to go back to flint for arrows. | ||
| Aesquire |
I suggest "The Book Of The Crossbow" by Ralph Payne-Gallwey, ( Dover books ) a scholarly tome on the history, construction, and use of crossbows AND Siege Engines from beginning to end. Lots of pictures for the Comic book generations, and quite detailed in the really important stuff. How the triggers, winches, and windings work. Superb work, High praise. I suggest a little knowledge of basic stress analysis before building a large siege engine. The power these things have is scary. Some buds, the Medieval Club and an Engineering class at Alfred University built a full scale trebuchet a few years back. Watermelon sized rocks 300+ yards. Treb's are so much fun to shoot..... | ||
| Gregtonn |
Umm...How does a treb rate as an all around weapon? If you need to bug out in a hurry, can you pack it along with enough ammo for 6 months or more? G | ||
| Aesquire |
The beauty of a catapult is you can gather ammo as you go.... Assuming you have a Legion to haul the thing........ Perhaps a bit off topic.... sorry. Still, very cool to watch shoot, it's like a physics lesson and a dance. Trebs, as a rule are not hauled anywhere. You build them on the spot. Not so great a hunting weapon, it's designed to knock down high stone walls. Until the cannon came around, the Trebuchet was THE WMD. I suppose you don't need one unless you want to breach the walls of the local Better for personal defense would be a nice ballista or onanger. Both are at least portable, in the pickup truck/mule team sense. Better still is a good crossbow powerful enough to need either a goatsfoot, cranquin, or windlass to draw. ( in order of power level and inverse order of fire rate )  Over on the tacticool thread, the AR-7 was suggested/lusted after. Good choice, with the caveat that a: can't be stowed in it's stock with scope mounted. b: the peep sight is a bit of a pain to zero. Not a vernier sight, more like a stamped piece of sheet metal held on by a screw. Accurate, easy to clean, and store. Rick a, in agreement with you on gas systems. One reason the AR platform has it's current reputation as an accurate arm is the gas system with a free floated barrel ( not the standard multi part delta ring hand guard ) has minimal barrel vibration issues. Without a piston slamming back and forth, an AR can do as well as a bolt gun for accuracy, while the AK derived piston conversion/versions just don't do that consistently. Piston guns have an edge when it comes to high volume shooting without cleaning. Lose points on inherent accuracy, cost, and parts count. The best are just as reliable, long term, as a properly maintained Direct Gas Impingement ( DGI )model. The worst are junk destroying itself as you shoot. The LWRCs and Rugers seem to do it right. If you are the kind of guy who enjoys lighting kitchen matches with a rifle at 100 yards, and actually don't mind using some CLP to hose the gun out weekly during hard use, get a DGI gun. If you are the guy who fires 700 rounds every range day then toss the dirty gun into the car with the intention of cleaning it when it quits working, hopefully next year, get a piston gun. Or better habits. | ||
| Blake |
I'd like to see a test of five well-worn-in, properly cleaned and lubricated DGI AR15 rifles firing an average of 30 rounds per minute of M855 until they malfunction three times and then all the way to complete inoperability, but counting and documenting (on video) the number and type of malfunctions up to that point. Maybe repeat the testing with various popular civilian ammo. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
One more thing to think about guys. I have already posted my feelings on a one gun scenario so consider this. PLAN AHEAD and have those things for bad situation "in the ready" in bug out bags, when you see things deteriorating to a point where you will have to act. Don't get "caught short" and have to make decisions quickly like "which one gun should I take". Planning is the key to success. Start NOW, but keep a positive attitude, don't go crazy, and live a normal life, it may never even happen........hopefully! |
