| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
Tom (Reindog), I have been an NRA Life member since I bought mine in the '70's when it was a full $500.00. and I have a few hats from them over the years; see below. And thanks for promoting that; we need more members to help the legislative action committee do their work for OUR rights in Congress.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, the dead ex-cop may have had some reason to murder people, but that doesn't matter. He stepped over the line, just as did Tim McVeigh. The "Oklahoma City Bomber" had good reason to complain about the massacres the Government has done to it's own people, both Waco and Ruby Ridge are prime examples of people getting murdered, in multiples, for no good reason except dishonest police forces. FBI and BATF. Still not justification for blowing up a building with people in it or shooting people. I don't know what Dorner, the guy they burned to death on purpose ( why does that remind me.....? Oh, yeah, Waco ) had for a supposed reason. I agree completely that the LA police went nuts. Too many bad TV shows? Shooting at cars in traffic? No wonder they have a bad reputation. Like the NYPD's lovely shoot a bunch of times and hit every bystander approach. It's really a miracle that so few people die from panicked police. Probably in the dozens each year.... I'm certainly not thinking of Dorner as a hero. Nor "Django Unchained" in real life and a big thrill for the Media cretins. And Hoo- boy, what a thrill for the nedia cretins. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/13/co lumbia-professor-dorner-django-unchained/ BTW, "Columbia Professor" is usually a red flag that the next thing you hear is going to be criminally stupid, racist, marxist, or ( mostly ) a combination of all three. If there was someone who went to Columbia, AND Harvard Law, you'd have someone so far divorced from reality as to be frightening.  | ||
| Rick_a |
It doesn't matter what kind of POS they are after, they are to conduct themselves professionally at all times. The law is supposed hold themselves above the actions of the criminals they are after. Emotions seemed to overcome sense, morals, and proper procedure. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=105&load=8027 a very slanted view. I'm not ready to give a % agreement with this editorial. Have to think on it. The situation in MO & CO legislature is double plus ungood. | ||
| Aesquire |
Rick_a, I agree, this is addressed better than I can in "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesa ndsheepdogs.html The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. For the short form of this concept on a T-shirt.. http://www.cafepress.com/mf/35350529/sheep-wolf-sh eepdog_tshirt?cmp=knc-pla-404315838&utm_term=40431 5838&utm_medium=cpc&utm_cp_signal=75&pid=3607873&u tm_source=google&utm_campaign=sem_product_feed | ||
| J2blue |
I can understand how easy it is for many, whether left or right on the political spectrum, to view law enforcement officers and the agencies they work for with mild contempt and distrust. And in a land that is informed about reality through the surreality of TV and movies far more than actually being a part of the events they have an opinion on it is easy to see how conspiracies can be woven from the slimmest of circumstances, rumors, and suggestions. However, there is a reality out there, just like the parable of the sheep and the sheep dogs suggests, where evil visits us and leaves us shaken and scared. It may be comforting to rewrite that reality into a more entertaining version for that reason. There is a simple story in the Dorner case, and a simple reality that is very sad. But it doesn't begin with a conspiracy tale of bad cops ganging up on a lone good cop. It begins with ordinary men and women doing a job they have been asked to do by all of us in society, and that is they respond to that rare call on an ordinary day when bullets are flying, or cars are careening, and the face of evil incarnates for a moment into a senseless killer. Not a hero or a martyr, but a former man who let evil abide in his heart until the day he saw himself as somehow different, and he justified killing others to assuage his inner turmoil. It is that simple, and it has happened so many times through history that we know the sheep need the protection of the sheep dogs. Before you listen to any more story tellers on TV, radio, or the web stop and review the following stories of the men who answered the call to stand up to evil in it's most violent outburst. These are the men who were forced into the position of kill or be killed by evil personified. Some were killed, and some were forced to avenge the killing for the simple purpose of ending the terror forced upon them. ( http://www.odmp.org/officer/15771-deputy-sheriff-j ason-schwartz ) The men and women of a very rural and lightly armed Sheriff's Office found themselves over a decade ago face to face with evil and given the order, lawfully, to shoot to kill. That order was necessary to secure the public safety and the safety of their fellow officers. Nothing had happened like that in this community before, and likely it will never happen again. When the twin brothers who instigated the manhunt by killing an officer in cold blood(and paralyzing another) gave themselves up, they did so to a park ranger, because they knew they would be killed by any other officers. The same officers who trained their rifle sights on them were then ordered to transport and secure them. They did so despite their feelings. But if you asked the officers would they have pulled the trigger if given a chance all would say yes, they would, because they were facing evil out of control and the quickest way to end it was death. Their judgment cannot be questioned today, nor do I think the judgment of the officers of the San Bernardino Sheriff's Office in bringing Dorner's reign of terror to a swift end. ( http://www.odmp.org/officer/21673-detective-jeremi ah-mackay ) ( http://www.odmp.org/officer/21668-police-officer-m ichael-crain ) Just like Jason Schwartz, Officers Jeremiah MacKay, and Michael Crain faced off with evil and paid the final price. They had no manifesto or martyrs cause, just a simple duty. And their fellow officers had but one final duty to their friends and the public at large and that was to bring the killer to justice, dead or alive, as quickly as possible. Dorner was given the chance to give himself up, he decided to kill himself with a single shot, and allow his body to burn in the rubble of the cabin he picked for his final stand. That is all pretty simple, and uncomplicated. The officers who pushed in on him and applied pressure, in incremental amounts, gave him choices, even after he had killed one of their own. They made sure that he could not kill or maim anyone else again, whether civilian or law enforcement officer. It was their duty to do so and they carried it out at our request as civilians. I firmly believe that a measure of our societies moral well being can be reflected in how we respond to news of such events. How quickly we are to invent complex and fascinating stories to avoid the simple reality that evil is real and we trust our law enforcement to meet it and destroy it in a brutal but efficient way. I am offended to have to read on this forum, or observe on media accounts that evil is being glorified merely for the sake of entertainment, a more fascinating story that helps us look away from the ugliness that evil forces upon us. Innocent civilians were killed by Dorner's evil acts. Innocent law officers were killed by Dorner's evil acts. He was met not with evil, but brutal and equal force to end his path of destruction. He made the choice as to how much force he would be met with the instant he pulled the trigger on his first victim, and each time there after. And after he fell Officer MacKay, he still was given the choice to surrender or die as violently as those whose lives he took. It was a simple set of choices. If the Sheriff and his men are guilty of being too forceful in dealing with evil, then we are too, each of us. We cannot expect them to continue putting themselves at risk, and us too, to play nice with recalcitrant evil. To entertain twisted notions of malevolent intent in these circumstances is to entertain evil. I was heartened to find out that there are some in the media who are speaking out against such craziness, who are calling it offensive to the agencies and their staff who were involved, and especially to the families and loved ones of the officers who died. I'm calling it like it is on this forum, we are being insensitive towards our fellow man, towards each and every law enforcement officer, whether they read this board or not, and especially to the survivors of those murdered by Dorner. To tolerate it is to tolerate evil. I can't be a part of that, nor will I be a part of that. That is how Dorner succumbed. I hope no one on this board will find it necessary to debate, rebut, or construe what I am saying simply because it hurts ones pride to admit to not being "right" or talked down to. I ask you to refrain for the sake of all that is decent about us as a simple community of bike riders. Let's just drop the speculation about Dorner and the Agencies, at least for a few weeks. Err on the side of not entertaining evil by glorifying it. Your sympathies cannot be for the innocent when it is spent on the evil, and there can be no doubt that Dorner became that. If you have to sympathize in his direction do so towards his family members, who must surely be in shock and grief not for him but for the families of his victims. I'm sure he never considered how it would affect them. ps: The thing that I find hardest to write in this post is "I'm offended" because that seems to be such a vain statement for ordinary events. Aren't most of the events we discuss just that, ordinary? I'm not sure if I've wasted my digital breath by saying so, and I'll likely just avoid this thread for a while so as not to take myself too seriously. In the events we have witnessed this past week, I'm finding the extraordinary, so maybe it is not so vain to speak up. Cheers. (Message edited by j2blue on February 15, 2013) (Message edited by j2blue on February 15, 2013) | ||
| Aesquire |
There is a world of difference between the San Berdo police ending the confrontation without letting the suspect escape to kill again, and the massacre at Waco. I apologize for the comment. I don't know the reasons Dorner went on a rampage. His manifesto? Haven't read it, just comments about it, and I don't know if it has any revelations on the LAPD the world should know about. Like others, even if his cause was just, he did it wrong. Also, the lefty loon was a big supporter of gun control. It's amazing how many people through history have been in favor of gun control, yet murdered people, with guns. YOU are not allowed to defend yourself, but they ( or their armed minions ) may. | ||
| Blake |
My point is that I don't even know if Dorner actually murdered anyone. There's been no due justice, just an execution. The whole thing stinks. A'men Rick! If one of our military fighting men had behaved as the LA cops did, shooting up the wrong objectives and innocent people, they would be facing court martial. | ||
| Sifo |
Did Dorner do it wrong? You bet! Did the police do it wrong? You bet! Shooting up a vehicle that EXACTLY matches a description of the vehicle Dorner was driving, without first seeing that the driver is Dorner, and having reasonable belief that he doesn't have an innocent hostage, would still be wrong. That isn't what happened though. Instead they shot up two separate vehicles, neither of which matched what they were looking for, with drivers that couldn't be mistaken for Dorner. When they surrounded Dorner in the cabin, they had him contained. No doubt it was still a dangerous situation. The police had no way of knowing if there were hostages inside either. It would be a reasonable assumption that the owners of the cabin may have been taken hostage inside, or anyone else could have been taken in with Dorner as a hostage. Simply burning down the cabin guarantees the death of all inside. Despite claims after the fact by the Sheriff, it's quite clear from a number of recordings that have been made public that they did in fact intend to burn the cabin. The rules of engagement for our soldiers in a war zone are far more restrictive than what was done in the Dorner case. Had our soldiers acted the same way in fighting a war, they would find themselves up on very serious criminal charges. It's chilling to me that you excuse this when it comes with police who are putting innocent civilians in harms way. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Give us your gun(s) you or your family member may commit suicide with them.... http://tinyurl.com/c4fbrh5 It is for public 'safety' after all | ||
| Sifo |
J2blue, I just have to wonder, would you still feel this way had you or a loved one been in one of those vehicles, just driving down the road when the officers decided to start shooting? Think about that for a bit. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm not excusing the police that decided to shoot up cars at panic filled random at all. THEY should be prosecuted, and the Dept. that is led so badly should be sued. I'd insist on a brand new car and an apology. Most would insist on lifetime support with PTSD from the shootings. The San Berdoo cops that burned the cabin down ( like Waco, no evidence that the police murder victims started the fire and all signs that the flammable tear gas grenades did ) may have overstepped the line in a culturally sensitive war zone, ( with ROE's I consider insane ) but when the subject of a man hunt, accused of multiple murders, of COPS & their relatives, is shooting at you from a cabin, you do NOT let him escape. For a couple of real, and hard learned reasons. 1. New York has long ONLY allowed Murder One for cop killers. ( and now after the Webster Ambush, Fire fighters/EMT's/First responders ) based on the logic that anyone mad dog crazy enough to kill police is more of a threat to society than a person who kills granny. You may argue with the logic, or attribute self serving self preservation & intimidation factors to the policy, But it's a long accepted time honored concept that killing cops should be discouraged. 2. Another long accepted line is family. A Police Officer accepts his job has dangers, and is willing to face them, hopefully with courage and honor. ( yes, that's not always true, but that is the ideal held by the good folk of our world ) Cops do NOT expect the bad guys to go after family. That is a long known trigger for all out war. You touch my kids, I destroy your clan, utterly, and without mercy. This primate logic is unyielding and predates nation states, written law and cultural sensitivity. 3. Duty tells you that a mass murderer is never ever let escape and take hostages, murder more people and go on his way. Your responsibility is to your citizens. All those scenes in movies where the hostage taker demands the cop drop his gun? That's when you take careful aim and shoot him in the eye. Otherwise, you die, the hostage dies and the next cop, citizen, child and granny die as they cross his path. By any means necessary. Even if it's means your death and the death of the hostage. That's cold, hard and nasty, but it's necessary. Sucks to be a hostage. Sucks to be a sheep. It's hard to be a Sheepdog. .................................................. .. Did Dorner commit murder? So I am told. There will never be a trial. We may never know. Is this a grand conspiracy to frame a black vet? I dunno. What was his beef? I dunno. Some, I have read. He was in a corrupt, violent culture, the LAPD. Framed for betrayal of the "Code"? I dunno. Are there ever, ever any circumstances where you must kill someone to stop a horrible injustice? Perhaps. I can concoct scenarios where that might be the only way. It's never happened to me, but it's possible. Does that mean killing a persons daughter and boyfriend? I have hard time getting a justification/rationalization on that one. He was in a corrupt, violent culture, the LAPD. Corrupt enough to murder a turncoat? F,,,ing A, Bubba. Duh. Is that what happened? I don't know and might never. Another opinion. http://rense.com/general95/lapd-high-crimes.html A timeline. http://storify.com/assignmentdesk1/timeline-of-dor ner-s-suspected-crimes The only thing this has do do with the second amendment is that it's a possible excuse for anti-gun folk to use to pass laws. I note the President, normally quick to pick on police and lightning fast to grasp a crisis to manipulate to his own ends, has little to say. This has been attributed to racism by Right wing pundits, and they surely have ample cause to speculate so. I think he is trying not to overplay his hand on a subject that is going very well for him, over all, although he may not get exactly what he wants form Congress this session, the anti-Constitutional propaganda wave is crashing nicely ( from his view ) on the shoals of public, uninformed opinion. His goal of washing away our rights seems to be going pretty good, from, his view. Not so much from that of a citizen. | ||
| Aesquire |
On the suicide subject City brought up. "The chances of dying rise drastically when a gun is present, because guns are so much more likely to be lethal" .... "“If you use a gun,” Dr. Miller said, “you usually don’t get a second chance.” One common argument is that the suicidal person would have found some other way to kill himself, even if no gun was available. That is the belief of Sharon Wells, the adoptive grandmother of Kyle Wells, a 16-year-old in Cody, Wyo., who shot himself with her pistol in October. “It’s not the guns, it’s the person,” Ms. Wells said. Kyle was born into a world of problems that began with fetal alcohol syndrome, and continued throughout school, where he was bullied relentlessly for his small stature, she said. If he had not used a gun, she said, he would have used something else. “Yes, many may find another method,” said Catherine Barber, director of the Harvard center’s Means Matter public health education campaign, “but will it kill them?” Citing statistics from emergency rooms and death certificates, she said, “Nearly everything they substitute will have lower odds of killing them, sometimes dramatically so.” A good friend used natural gas. ( still unhappy with him for that ) Driving off a cliff seems to work well, and there's always high explosives. Or you could go on a rampage for suicide by cop. ( seems popular today... ) But I do agree with the anti-gun doctor. Guns are weapons and weapons kill better than marshmallows. Duh, Captain Obvious. ( they also save lives from evil men better than marshmallows ) Of course, as a Doctor, he has much better means at hand to kill himself, or others. What's his opinion on doctor assisted suicide? ( aka murder ) | ||
| Sifo |
Aesquire, Just a few points... You touch my kids, I destroy your clan, utterly, and without mercy. This primate logic is unyielding and predates nation states, written law and cultural sensitivity. Trust me, for reasons that I will not get into on the internet, I understand this emotion/reasoning. If you or I act on this emotion/reasoning however, we will get prosecuted for murder. This shouldn't change because one wears a uniform. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Duty tells you that a mass murderer is never ever let escape and take hostages, murder more people and go on his way. Your responsibility is to your citizens. All those scenes in movies where the hostage taker demands the cop drop his gun? That's when you take careful aim and shoot him in the eye. Otherwise, you die, the hostage dies and the next cop, citizen, child and granny die as they cross his path. By any means necessary. Even if it's means your death and the death of the hostage. That's cold, hard and nasty, but it's necessary. Sucks to be a hostage. Sucks to be a sheep. It's hard to be a Sheepdog. Most of that doesn't apply to the situation at hand. Dorner was surrounded by about 200 cops. Hes was going nowhere. The closest thing to your scenario of shooting the bad guy in the eye would have been a sniper taking Dorner out. Had they done that, I wouldn't bat an eye at it. Guaranteed death for all inside, when you don't know how many may be inside, isn't very analogous to the hostage situation you describe though. He was contained with limited resources. Typically this would be where the authorities let time work for them. In this case they seemed to be in a rush to get done at any cost. Had Dorner had hostages, their deaths would be on the hands of the police. The fact that they got lucky on the hostage issue doesn't excuse the poor choice. | ||
| Blake |
>>> All those scenes in movies where the hostage taker demands the cop drop his gun? That's when you take careful aim and shoot him in the eye. I hate when Hollywood portrays cops or any "good guy" protagonist laying down their gun at the behest of evildoers. Liberal fantasy delusion. There are actually people who believe, really truly believe that having licensed armed citizens in the Aurora, CO theater or in the Virginia Tech classroom would have made the situation worse. Gun-free zones are REALLY dumb. Imagine boarding an airplane and instead of having to check your pistol and ammo as luggage, the gate agent instead checked your class A carry licence and confirmed that the magazine was loaded with frangible ammunition. A class "A" license being a level above standard CHL, with more rigorous requirements. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sifo, Mafia, Yakuza, LAPD, no matter, each extralegal organization cannot tolerate killing of family. It leads to war, and the LAPD went to war. If you let it be known you are only human and subject to the laws of the land, your organization will be overwhelmed by those not respectful of your turf. Yes, You, or I would be prosecuted for a feud, revenge killing, or war on another, but these are Clans/Tribes/Corporate/families, not individuals. It's not that the law does not apply, in theory, it's that it doesn't matter to the organization. You cannot let your tribe be seen to be weak, or it will die. Sure, we are a nation of laws, but also a nation of lawyers and bribable judges. Why do you think that in New York the ONLY people protected by the punishment of a First Degree Murder Charge are Police? Intimidation, control, dominance. Without Dominance the Police are out numbered, helpless, and will be over run. Look at much of the third world. Certainly taken to extreme, like in LA, or Venezuela, this leads to corruption, brutality and callous disregard for human life and the law. ( shooting up and ramming cars in multiple cases of "mistaken identity", aka, panic freak is an great example of "things gone bad" ) No, the hostage/villain rant oft seen on TV is not what happened to that cabin, that's a clear case of "burn em out" with no trial desired. I'm not sure how much I blame the officers on scene. If Some guy I was sent to arrest is shooting at me and I have dead friends involved, My interest in polite arrest might get strained.... I'm not excusing the police, but I'm not siding with the alleged shooter, and supposedly dead ex-cop either. ( If the conspiracy crowd can have him be an innocent being framed, ( possible ) then the LAPD could also be lying about his death ( unlikely )) I don't have the info to make a judgment on Dorner, and doubt I ever will. Meanwhile, pointing a finger and saying "bang" can get your child expelled from school. This, blamed on "zero tolerance" policies ( to excuse the morons in administration ) and the mantra "safety for the children" is an ongoing and intense indoctrination policy to scare the sheep when they are young and keep them that way. Make them fear their parents. make little informants out of them. 1984 was a long time ago. It's going to be worse, unless we stop it. ( and if you haven't read, or at least seen the cartoon, there are certain works you need for a context of history, the left and the doom of freedom. Or else you just are ignorant. and so cannot make an informed decision. Animal Farm 1984 Brave New Word at least the first few Amendments to the Constitution..  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Master and Margarita from Bulgakov - A political satire that nailed Lenin and Stalin on everything he could - It is indeed telling form of what the Maestro is up to in that book, and what Obama is up to now. The show goes on.... and on. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Hello 'Probable Cause'.... http://tinyurl.com/ccz3u5b | ||
| Blake |
Interesting story. How may we know if it is true? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
blake http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/feds-seized-nea rly-1500-guns-in-raid so this happened, but who knows what all is correct about his story vs the medias what I HATE is the last line of the news story this is the worst sort of reporting, to put into peoples heads that its MORE dangerous because there was a school close by. Appparently he never committed a violent crime, yet they publish the quote showing how its more dangerous. ridiculous. disgusting. Now, if he was doing wrong/bad things with the missing paperwork etc, that's on him and it is entirely possible that he/someone would hide such information and spin it to his bias on the how he was treated. I don't know. All I know is that the media is making things WORSE for us. And that it sucks | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I was on a team that ginned up Probable Cause at the whim of 'credible' evidence - that could not be verified until through door. all we had was hearsay.... from known junkies and informants that were looking for immunity or money. Washington National Guard, in coordination with Washington State Patrol, Seattle PD, and King County Sheriff would execute Tac Unit 'warrants' in joint efforts when LEO avenues of surveillance and protocol could not get a viable warrant. What we did was well published - what you think is the 'law' isn't. hasn't been for a very long while All they have to do is get you labelled a dealer, a subversive, a terrorist, a probable threat to terrorism, public safety, sexual deviant or danger to 'yourself'....(usually ginned up by a shrink you have never met - that was on our payroll) or now - living near a school. badda bing, badda bang, badda boom. This was 10 years ago, Just fresh off the Patriot Act - I have no idea how it has ramped UP under NDAA. welcome to the show. | ||
| Loki |
and in other places, simply get Game and Fish to be involved. Opens a lot of doors without any form of warrant. | ||
| Sifo |
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| Aesquire |
I repeat an earlier question. Is there any case where universal ( federal/national/state ) gun registration has not resulted in partial or complete confiscation? | ||
| Aesquire |
Bear in mind that in New York the unconstitutional SAFE act does indeed steal your property at your death. The items that ARE grandfathered may not be passed down to relatives or friends, but must be confiscated. ( and destroyed or stolen by the Minions of State ) | ||
| Mtnmason |
I'm afraid we will see "From My COLD, DEAD HANDS" taken literally (as it should be) before we know it this was cut/pasted on the FNH forum I frequent: http://dcclothesline.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/if-t hey-come-for-your-guns-do-you-have-a-responsibilit y-to-fight/ | ||
| Slowride |
This post /\/\/\/\/\/\ Is a fantastic read! | ||
| Rick_a |
That it is. Good to see he didn't backpedal like that Yeager douche...who portrayed gun owners in a poor light with his rant. | ||
| Blake |
I think I'll just hide 'em. | ||
| Ducxl |
Wow,a profound read.I agree. |
