| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm Let me expand on this old soldier’s excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial. Don't pick on teachers, please. Hard work, insane rules, morons on the school board. Imagine being told you can't even block a punch from a violent criminal because he's under your authority... and you have none. Feel free to pick on their unions, their school boards, the politicians that screw them, us and others. A few points. Yes, if we "harden" schools, the bad in the head people will go shoot up theaters or malls. So? The crazed mass slaughter won't be your kids at school. If you want the world to be perfect, better go back on the meds. Stop cable tv, the internet, and move. Only a few people get murdered every year in Antarctica. It's summer. Enjoy. ( as opposed to Chicago, where it's winter, and the death rate is higher than Iraq & Afghanistan combined... Gun free zone. Go figure. ) Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. The NRA VP said some amazingly stupid things. Yes, you can blame the Media for glorifying these killings. No, I'm not going to let you muzzle the full of crap press. I know they are nigh useless, ignorant as only a Journalism student can be, and wouldn't know journalism if you hit them with a ER Murrow statue. Still, censorship does not lead to freedom. Feel free to mock them They deserve it. Yes, you can advise parents not to let their kids play violent video games until they get old enough to understand fiction from real, and have been show a moral standard that they might return to after adolescence. No you can't ban them. There is a rating system. Try making the parents take some responsibility. ( hard to do in a 2 income or broke economy ) I've heard that a child's moral scope is pretty much set by age 6. That they can change it through life, but if they aren't given the basics, You've messed them up bad. ( at least, Don't hurt people. might do. ) Do I advocate armed guards in schools? If needed. A federal Program to demand it? Frak no. So many stupid ways a federal law like that is stupid. It won't work, it will cost a fortune for no good, the bureaucracy involved will never die, and the results WILL be low paid jerks fondling your daughter. Like the TSA. I Guarantee. Bet you $100. I'm not against police in schools. I'm against panic reaction "we gotta do SOMETHING!!!" bad laws, bad ideas, and bad results. Unionman, why are you picking On Grover? ( not defending him, just wondering why you throw in irrelevant points for what looks like BS snark? ) | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Won simpul solushun....shutt downe dah scholls. Fource dah parerent too teech dare chilldren two reed ann right. Frum their,tha schmart fone well gide thim threw liefe! If you had trouble reading this,get used to it........I see this crap written everyday by people that have graduated into the real world. | ||
| Malott442 |
BLAKE My sister is a teacher. In Florida. She is at the school @6am until 4-5pm. Not including grading homework, after school activities, field trips. Her education was 125k, Florida Southern. As a side, I agree the median numbers look pretty high, maybe because so many teachers have to stay 35+ years for retirement. On paper their pay looks higher, but in my case I have personally skewed vision. My sis has been there 10 years and I hear her accounts first hand. She was making 36k until some genius decided the best way to cut deficit was to fire teachers of lower tenure and cut back the rest. My sister took a 5k a year hit. She now makes 31k and has been teaching 10 years. She has 2 bachelor's degrees. She would NOT be a teacher if she knew that the pay would go DOWN over time. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/ranks/ rank20.html And I think it's very funny that you find teaching to be the least stressful and played up role. If you only knew what teachers had to deal with these days, thanks to poor parenting. My sister has been verbally and physically assaulted, sexually harassed, and this is by 14 year olds! (Message edited by malott442 on December 23, 2012) (Message edited by malott442 on December 23, 2012) | ||
| Malott442 |
And in regards to performance oriented, I guess you have not seen the way standardized tests are used. Higher test scores=more funding. And do you really think that a teacher will be retained if their students are not learning? You really sound like you are talking about Senate and the House of Representatives, not teachers. Teaching is a job I wouldn't last a week at. THAT IS STRESS And my username (family name) is malott, not mallott. Please try to pay more attention. You're not so much insulting me, but a long lineage with your lack of attention to detail. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Sifo, Sorry too many question to address. I concede. What you and others have said has merit, but obviously we dis-agree. Back OT just for a little bit, The OP was stating how much it was going to cost to put Cop in every school and basically how stupid the idea is. I offered another view of the cost and suggested a possible economic impact. Many schools already have Cops at middle and high schools. Our area does. I stand by what I have suggested as something that can help increase security of schools... to some degree for a minimal cost to taxpayers. Trained and certified volunteers even better! Off- topic If we reject the Cop thing, what can we realistically do? | ||
| Sifo |
Malott442 Just a couple of observations/questions. Why would a teacher be spending so much time at school during off hours? Based on what I've seen, the parking lots are pretty empty off hours. I see the teachers parking lot filling up as we are dropping kids off for school. What you describe isn't typical. It's easy enough to see when the parking lot is filled at a school. Does a teacher really need 2 bachelors degrees? I don't see the point. I do see it as one of the problems of our education system. The teaching system rewards quantity over quality of education. I would be curious what her degrees are in and what subject(s)/grade(s) your sister teaches. Is 40K a year unreasonable? I just grabbed this doing a "average pay in florida" search...  Source: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/State=Florida/Salary It might be a bit under average. Keep in mind a few things. Teachers don't pay into Social Security, but they do get a real nice pension plan instead. I would be happy just not having to pay into SS! Then consider that a teacher gets about 3 months off every year. Adjust the pay for that and it's more like 53K per year. That includes a real nice pension, top notch health insurance, and no SS taxes. I'm having a hard time with the whole teachers are underpaid mantra. BTW, who would going into something where pay is going to go down. Welcome to the rest of the world. A 12% pay cut sucks. I and my wife would love to be able to make only 12% less than we used to. Most professions have cut that much and more. I would also be very curious exactly how many hours per day is actual class time? Field trips? Who else gets field trips at work? That's more benefit than responsibility. | ||
| Hughlysses |
My sister was a career teacher, one of my nieces is a teacher, and my wife worked in the public school system for ~10 years. I can't really say whether teachers are underpaid or not, but I do know that competent teachers put in a lot of work hours outside of the classroom. I do think a lot of the stuff they are required to do as a part of their jobs is largely a waste of time which has little or nothing to do with teaching kids. There is an unbelievable amount of government-required paperwork that teachers have to do that was NOT required ~20 years ago. Another point is that teachers wind up buying a lot of classroom supplies out of their own pockets as the school system no longer supplies it. Field trips? Who else gets field trips at work? That's more benefit than responsibility. Dude? Seriously? I'm guessing you've never been on a field trip before. Imagine carrying ~30 barely behaved elementary school students by bus to a public place and YOU'RE responsible for their safety for 2-4 hours. You've got to keep them in line, make sure they don't break anything, hurt themselves, get lost, get kidnapped or get assaulted. Sounds like 2-4 hours of relaxing of fun to me. | ||
| Sifo |
I've NEVER seen a single teacher responsible for 30 kids on a field trip. They always have aids and usually unpaid parents along to help. Can I imagine carrying ~30 barely behaved elementary school students by bus to a public place and I'M the one responsible for their safety for 2-4 hours. Seriously? Add not crashing the bus to that and you have my job description. Do you want to compare who's underpaid? | ||
| Aesquire |
Like I said, quit picking on the teachers. In the Rochester City School district a few Supers back, his last action before he left was to create the "self esteem czar" at $126k + very generous executive bennies. Very. The Rochester Super has a larger cabinet than the US President. Even this one, who has set a new record for unelected, unconfirmed and illegal positions. The Self Esteem Czar position is to direct programs to make the city school pupil feel better about themselves, as they flunk school, learn very little, and stab each other over boys. ( locally, the stab at school thing is very popular among the girls. Ever see one of those horrid redneck reality shows? that's here, with snow ) A teachers pay PERCEPTION is skewed by NYC, Chicago, and other big city power union districts. In smaller towns the management/shcool district staff may be VERY well paid, but the teachers? not so much. ( to be fair it casts more to live in the Big Towns, as a rule ) Teachers are not paid on a State pay scale, but on a very local one. All of which has nothing to with the fact that evil men are using tragedy to rip you off, steal your money and rights, and gain support of foolish, panicked people. | ||
| Malott442 |
Teachers don't get 3 months off a year. They used to. But the "breaks" that the kids get are broken up for the teachers into office days and preparations for the next year/semester. Her 2 degrees are in education and music theory, a requirement to teach music in school. She teaches middle school music. Downplay it if you feel so narrow-minded, but giving the children something to take pride in is vital to their self esteem and social makeup. Music teaches much more than to play an instrument. There is a chain of command, rhythm, harmony, and it gives them something to be truly proud of. Teachers have to carry emergency kits, know the medical conditions/allergies of every student, be able to handle emergent situations and protect 30 peoples lives at all times. I don't know what job field you are in Sifo, but my field's starting pay has increased 20% in the past 10 years. I started out 3 years ago where the pay ceiling was 13 years ago. I get paid a lot more than my sister does with only a little less time off and no degree requirement. I know, I know, the world isn't fair. BACK ON ORIGINAL TOPIC: Cutting teacher's pay will get a big NO vote from me. How about reducing tax returns by 25 dollars each? Would you even miss it? | ||
| Boltrider |
Teacher salaries and benefits pale in comparison to the administrative staff of the district. The real venom should be saved for them. My local district features a $400K-per-year Superintendent, whose benefits include a monthly car and food allowance, and of course ironclad job security. In the face of local district cutbacks over the last five years, none have come from the administrative level at the district office. It very much mirrors the private sector where middling employees take the hit while the higher-ups remain well-protected. | ||
| Aesquire |
$25 a year? Gladly pay it. The Federal bureaucracy that has to be created to do this, however, will cost you about $1000+ a year, forever. If, for example, we have 1000 schools, 2000 guards then we will have 15,000 administrators. Imagine the TSA at your School. How much stolen? how many sexual assaults on your kids? Bad idea at federal level. Not so good at State. Won't happen at local. | ||
| Sifo |
I used to be in the IT field. It's cut back a lot. I've decided to drop it and drive a school bus now. My wife's best friend is a music teacher BTW. Not knocking it, but it isn't what I would call the core of education either. I also know 2 art teachers, a history teacher, and a special ed. teacher. So how much time off are teachers getting? I bet it's at least 2 1/2. Around here the kids have a short day EVERY SINGLE WEEK to help them plan, etc. Overall, I really don't see them as under-compensated, especially taking everything into account. There's a lot more than base salary. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Home school them : imagine a nation pulling their kids out of progressive socialist indoctrination camps..... or just not have them to begin with. Everyone that wants to argue left v right always seems to forget the opt out measure. Refuse to participate in the shiate, refuse to contribute, refuse to fund it. Its not a global answer - but frankly neither is anything the left or right promote either; it comes down to self reliance, independence, self determination and protecting your own. | ||
| Fahren |
Let's get armed cops at schools. If that isn't enough, then arm the admin staff. Then, go for the teachers, too. If it still doesn't solve the problem, let the kids carry. Heck, maybe we can even take it further, and set land mines all around the schools.....yeah, that's it, move all schools to military bases, set in mine fields, with barbed wire high fences all around, and everybody has weapons. Or, Let's give up on cops and guns at schools, live free and without daily, constant reminders of why we must be "afraid" and looking to authorities to "protect" us, and live with the risk that bad people will do bad things once in a while. Armed guards at schools smacks of TSA/homeland sec tactics to get us all used to being herded and protected by government sheepdogs. | ||
| Sifo |
Illinois has a cool website that allows you to see public records on what teachers and other public employees make... openthebooks.com You need a login to do more than 3 searches, but it free and no big deal. Just using my local high school district as an example, there are 639 teachers listed from 2011 records. I honestly don't know if this includes administrators or not. I'm kind of assuming it does. Here's some breakdowns, feel free to register and double check me if anyone likes. So of the 639 teachers, only 29 made less than $50K. Most of those are clearly not full time teachers, or didn't teach the full year or whatever has their pay dropping right off the chart. 439 of them made over $75K. 265 of them made over $100K. 75 of them made over $125K. 9 of them made over $150K. Top pay was $245K, followed by $165K. I'm really not sure if this is administration pay or not. What I don't see is underpaid teachers, at least not in my area. This is a district with 4 high schools that covers a diverse population, none of which is of the gated community type. It's mostly middle class suburbanites that would only dream of the compensation package their teachers are getting. Here's a big question though. Are our schools teaching any better than schools where teachers are making far less? Everything I'm aware of tells me no they are not. Paying more isn't going to get you more, so don't do it for the kids. I have no problem with paying a fair wage, but if the data from my district can be extrapolated across the country, then teachers are doing better than the areas in which the live. I'm not sure if that would be true or not, but I have a feeling it may hold true as a general rule. I just thought this side discussion could use some real world data. Back to how a rent-a-cop with a gun is better than a teacher carrying concealed. | ||
| Aesquire |
The Mayan apocalypse is here! Fahren & I agree. | ||
| Sifo |
Let's give up on cops and guns at schools, live free and without daily, constant reminders of why we must be "afraid" and looking to authorities to "protect" us, and live with the risk that bad people will do bad things once in a while. Now, that's just crazy talk!  | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I wonder if any school trips ever ventured to a gun range? | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"The Federal bureaucracy that has to be created to do this, however, will cost you about $1000+ a year, forever. " ....so maybe the real problem is the current bureaucracy. We need to ban bureaucrats and limit their capacity to 6 years! $1,000 seems a bit of an exaggeration maybe $250 Looks like we are running out of ways to even have a small chance of realistically increasing the safety at schools..... Any more ideas? ...before the way left bans or confiscates firearms? | ||
| Xdigitalx |
How many schools have archery class? Why don't they have a gun class too ... but with Musket's? Lots of history to learn there. | ||
| Sifo |
Any more ideas? Our local grade school has taken to locking the classroom doors once class begins. It's simple to do and costs nothing, yet does put up one more barrier to someone just walking into a classroom. Seems like a rational move to me, but probably won't pacify the anti-gun crowd. It's not really about improving safety, it's about banning guns. In fact it's about banning the guns that kill the least number of people. Talk about stupidity! | ||
| Xdigitalx |
The only thing that can be done has already been said here. Have 3-6 individuals trained and armed (CCW or not) in every school, (added to the administrative costs) It is the schools responsibility to protect the children. This is completely obvious. You have big yellow school buses,... crossing guards at every corner,... drug free school zones, 25 mph speed limits while kids in school, extra people to help on field trips... if safety is the highest priority for all teachers, school admins and parents, ... why won't you protect our children from some of the most evil doers in society. (or let others do it for them). Make defense training available for all school admin, teachers, gym teachers, coaches and even the janitors of the school. And MANDATE that at least 3-6 personnel have the training and equipment to assist if needed. Just because the evil person used a certain device to commit the evil deed it doesn't make the device itself evil. | ||
| Oldog |
TO UNION-MAN THE OP Please refute my arguments or refrain from spewing the nonsense.. LEFT: CONFISCATE ALL GUNS SO ONLY THE POLICE AND MILITARY HAVE THEM: THEN THE CHILDREN WILL BE SAFE 1. Not all guns are traceable 2. Individuals who invest in this as a hobby will not surrender them willingly so you violate their 1st amendment rights. 3. It is a direct Violation of the US Constitution 2nd amendment 4. Many LEOs' collect and shoot they oppose many gun laws, so resistance will be likely. 5. History shows us that a disarmed populous will be subdued by the first available TYRANT 6. The school is still a "soft" target RIGHT: CITIZENS KEEP THEIR GUNS, PLACE ARMED AND ARMORED GUARDS AT SCHOOL, ALLOW ANY PERSON WHO WORKS THERE AND PASSES EVALUATION AND QUALS TO CCW 1. More people working, gun makers, guards, sales people. 2. Armed guards will tend to keep drug / gang issues at a lower profile possibly eliminating them. 3. The guards are LEOS and could be available in times of emergency when the school was closed. 4. There is no violation of the law 2nd amendment 5. The costs are reasonable Vs trying to find and confiscate all of the guns 6. The school is now a hard target please make a logical case for why guards wont work. Your children are worth how much? Hey 9-4 I have no school age kids I'm up for 25.00$ a year for guards here | ||
| Sifo |
I'm not against the guard idea. I don't think the $25 per taxpayer version is going to do much more than provide the impression of security though. In reality, considering the threat, this may be enough. Until someone is determined to demonstrate that it isn't. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Sifo In fla teachers do pay into SS in Ill they do not My inlaws are retired teachers when Ill goes broke they are out of luck. | ||
| Union_man |
I asked; If you think there should be a cop in every school. The NRA does. I do not. I just wanted to know what you guys thought. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Geeesh! Seriously; Gun related suicide is highest this time of year. These holiday tragedies are mostly perpetrated by angry, disenfranchised white men. EXHALE. Settle down. Relax. I wish you all peace and a Merry X-Mas!  | ||
| Aesquire |
Simple answer..? Maybe. In some cases. Not in every school. Why don't you want it? I've spoken out against a federal program, because it will be too expensive, intrusive, and not work. | ||
| 99savage |
* I don't want a cop in every school. * Would just as soon not have teachers packing. * I don't want ban post 1950's firearms. I want us to treat other with consideration and respect the way we did not all that long ago. Seriously kids, came of age in the late 50's-early 60's. Could buy firearms at flea-markets, hardware stores, antique stores, JC Penney's at the mall and just about every other place. - Occasionally daddy shot mommy & vice-versa but nobody thought about unloading on a room full of strangers. Remember the sadness we all felt when C. Whitman picked off some strangers at UT. Now that is a balmy afternoon most everyplace. Our handsome young President is the only one who could pull off asking for kindness & respect towards each other but he is not going to let this tragedy go to waste. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Most schools in Florida have a School Resource Officer (SRO) assigned to them. The SRO is a fully certified law enforcement officer who is employed by the jurisdiction in which the school lies (Ie; county or city). The SRO program is a good program and the SRO is actively involved in many different aspects of the school. I would say no to an "armed guard". It is way too easy to become an armed security person and the position would barely pay $10-$13 an hour which is not enough to attrack the right kind of person. I would say no to allowing a majority of school staff to be armed. Most (not all) are not tactically minded and have no business carrrying a gun. Futher a lot of LE agencies train for active shooter events. Teachers (especially in the south) are underpaid. They spend a LOT of their own time and in some instances their own money on school related issues. I dated a teacher and know quite a few people married to teachers. It is a thankless job for sure. A better place to start (IMO) would be to bring back school prayer (don't care who you pray to) and instill personal responsibility and discipline in our youth. Today's TV doesn't help. Nor does letting X-Box baby sit because the parent is trying to be a friend rather than an authoritative figure... |
