| Author | Message | ||
     Xdigitalx |
High capacity??? what does that have to do with anything? We do need to enable our citizens to defend themselves. No new laws would have stopped this tragedy..unless it allowed the teachers and/or a few administratives to be allowed to ccw. The shooter woulda done same thing with a pistol. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
If you remove my right to own a firearm that is high capacity, and we assume that every law abiding citizen relinquishes their weapons and magazines.... How do you intend to get the non-law abiding citizens to do the same? Not a realistic solution. And what is high cap.. 5, 7, 9, 15, ??? Ever see some one who has practiced a little, ...how fast they can unload and load a simple double barreled shot gun? ...how fast a person can unload and reload an old fashioned 6 shot revolver? Let's get over the unrealistic agenda and emotional driven concepts and see if we can find a way to reduce similar tragedies from happening. Although reality is hard for some to visualize sometimes, defense is a great place to start. How about citizen (not LEO) screened, approved, and trained volunteers allowed to carry in these "Gun Free Zones"? | ||
| Blake |
Some perspective is in order. How many are killed by drunk drivers every year in America? How many of those are children? | ||
| Sifo |
I'd rather not get shot by a "good" or "bad guy No doubt, we all share this wish. No doubt the good guys will grant you that wish. What's your plan for the bad guy though? | ||
| Cowboy |
Nuine You are right on tract I think the fathers and moms should put together a group to be trained and donate a day each week to the school. I know that as a retired person I would be happy to spend 2 days a week at our local school/ I beleave a [rogram of this type could be put to geathey by your sheriff at no cost to any one. | ||
| Darth_villar |
Stay in a gun free zone, then you won't be shot of course. | ||
| Blake |
Rocco, >>> But hell, ... interesting and telling that you invoke hell as a preface to your unhinged rant. >>> ...as usual, you all have the answers.... I think we mostly enjoy running our views through thoughtful vetting aiming to sharpen our understanding, intending to seek truth. >>> .in your own twisted minds. A twisted mind is one that demonizes others for their thoughtfully expressed opinions on important issues. Mature thoughtful people engage in meaningful debate by attacking the issues using logic, facts, and reason; they don't attack other people. Those who do are merely announcing defeat, but lack the honor and integrity to conced a mere point of debate. >>> Your right to own a gun and a high capacity mag of course, trumps a 6 or 7 year olds right to live. Pure nonsense and an example of twisted thinking at its best. Had the mass-murder been committed with a razor sharp blade (as just befell 27 children in China), would be similarly seeking to outlaw sharp knives? Over 10,000, including hundreds of innocent young children, are killed in America each year due to drunken drivers. Why do you not become unhinged at those arguing for the freedom to consume alcohol? Hypocrisy much? >>> You, and most on this right wing nutcase site, are part of a dying bread, and I could not be happier. You douches may think you're not, but believe me....you are. Thank GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! So then you'll be left with the likes of all those exemplary leftists who are 100% responsible for the cesspools that are so many of America's inner cities. Chicago, no guns allowed, highest murder rate in the nation. Evil does not obey the law. Period. Only the frightened self-deluded types cling to such twisted nonsense that taking weapons from lawful adults will prevent murderers from achieving their aims. Ask O.J. Rocco, if you are unable to engage in civil discussion, then you're no longer welcome here. You've been given a lot of unprecedented consideration in light of your long history and what I and others had figured was friendship, but it seems clear that you don't value anyone with whom you disagree on issues like this. If that is the case, then please simply bid your leave and seek suckle amongst your fascist like-minded leftist comrades. Thoughtful debate is welcome. Leave the personal attacks to the truly twisted. | ||
| Alfau |
thoughtful vetting Thoughtful Vetting ? Never thought of that! Daddy Will be pleased! Thank you! Let me see now; Rant with no personal attacks. Got it! . BUELL Motorcycles are SHIT | ||
| Blake |
| ||
| Geedee |
"The father of Newtown Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza is Peter Lanza who is a VP and Tax Director at GE Financial. The father of Aurora Colorado movie theatre shooter James Holmes is Robert Holmes, the lead scientist for the credit score company FICO. Both men were to testify before the US Senate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal." Suzanne Collins is the author of ‘The Hunger Games". Collins resides in Sandy Hook, Connecticut, with her husband and their two children. Just a coincidence? You can't make this stuff up. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And with most of what you post, you appear to me to struggle with letting your emotions and your dogma blur your ability to perform simple logical thought. The question wasn't if you wanted to get shot or not. The question was which would you rather, sitting there watching kids get executed, or trying to stop it and getting shot by the bad guy or even the good guy. My answer, I pray to God, would be that I could and would try and stop it. And I pray to God I would be able to stop it. But if I failed, and got shot be either the shooter or a cop acting in good faith in a bad situation, I would prefer that to just sitting there... either being executed or left to live. As for this shooting, I had already decided on my response after the Colorado Mall shooting, and have taken steps to prepare. It is a very unlikely event (that I would ever be in a position to stop an imminent threat to myself or some other innocent), but should it happen it would be a very high impact event (loss of an innocent life). I'm in the risk management business. These kinds of highly unlikely but high impact events are always really hard to deal with. Most people and companies don't spend time or money trying to deal with these things, which isn't actually that unreasonable. Most people or companies that don't prepare don't need to prepare... and those that did prepare and had the even might not survive anyway. So really, doing nothing is a reasonable strategy. Its a roll of the dice, but the odds are extraordinarily high that you will win the roll (millions to one odds). But think about the Fukishima nuclear plant. For reasons that baffle me to this day, they did their risk analysis and picked a tsunami level at the 1000 year or 10,000 year event level (I forget which). In other words (best case) they knew that within the last 10,000 years, the place where they were building that plant was hit by a tsunami that the plant they were building could not withstand. And it wasn't just a risk of loss of the plant and maybe some employees who understood and accepted the risk, it was to turn a chunk of Japan into a nuclear graveyard. What were they thinking? It was a highly unlikely event. 1 in 10000... pretty good odds. Oh wait, but that's each year. So over 10 years you are down to a 1 in 1000 risk. Again, really good odds, and if it was a once in a lifetime chance and you were just taking your own informed risk, 999 out of 1000 people who just accepted it made the right call. But when so many people are involved? And the outcome is so bad? That's criminal (IMHO). So back to the shooter thing... From a pure math standpoint, it's probably silly for me to prepare (for example get a CCW and carry). But from a moral standpoint, picturing myself either having to try and stop an armed criminal, or watching them execute innocent people, I just don't know if I could live with myself knowing I could have been prepared but wasn't. Low probability event, devastating outcome, but not actually that expensive a threat to mitigate. ($67 for CCW license, $75 training class, $200 PT-22 deep carry, $10 in .22 stingers (google the ballistics before dismissing the round please), $50 for a harbor freight digital safe, and $200 or so a year in practice costs, the decision not to ever drink while carrying, and the decision to be alert and vigilant to protect the gun from accidental or intentional misuse). | ||
| Sifo |
But hell, as usual, you all have the answers..... This has become a common and comical response from several folks around here. Actually, it's the liberals who tend to be claiming to have the answers. In this case, ban guns. Most of us are just pointing out the fallacy of this simple solution. The reality is that is is a complex problem, and every situation is likely to be unique. Looking for a simple, one size fits all solution is likely to be folly. I hope the irony isn't lost on anyone that while wanting to ban guns, the first folks you would call in this situation, is folks with guns. Think about that for a bit. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
GeeDee that's really something. | ||
| Drkside79 |
>>>>>ctually, it's the liberals who tend to be claiming to have the answers. In this case, ban guns. As per usual you are painting with a wide brush. I'm liberal. I don't think banning guns is the answer. If it was fifty years ago i would absolutely ban handguns. It could have been done back then. Now it would be too little too late. I also don't think arming teachers is the answer. In fact I think it's just plain dumb. I do strongly support more funding so that a police officer would be present in every school. A plain clothes armed cop whose job is 100% to work with kids and keep them safe seems to be the best answer. As to increased gun laws. Sure why not. However perhaps it should be made in the criteria to buy one not the ban of a weapon. Perhaps a simple questioner designed top look for mental problems. They exist they are not fool proof but if someone can't take twenty minutes to fill them out they don't deserve the right to carry a gun. On a side note Sifo's previous comment of the murders in the news here in Chicago not drawing National attention. The sad fact is that the innocent victims aren't white. Some of the 500 plus were gang bangers and really i could give a Sh*t about them dying but some were kids just like those gunned down here. IT NEEDS TO STOP. I no longer care how it is stopped just that it is. if it requires the national guard in Humbult Park do it. ok thats it for now. Flame On.... Not sure if | ||
| Drkside79 |
My post was not to diminish the God Awful event in CT. This was won of the most awful things that i remember in my lifetime. To be fair also it happened at once where as the Chicago rate is months of awful behavior. Not a single dastardly act. | ||
| Sifo |
As per usual you are painting with a wide brush. It is a broad brush. I also used the word tend. I stand by it as an accurate statement. I'm curious though, if you think and armed officer is a good idea, why is an armed teacher a dumb idea. Keep in mind, nobody is saying a teacher is going to be forced to carry a gun. No doubt though, there are currently teachers who are very competent with a gun and already have CCW permits. If it's a matter of their ability to qualify with a weapon, that is easy enough to do, just like with cops. It's a very easy, virtually no cost solution. Keeping in mind of course, no "solution" is going to prevent every situation. Has anyone taken notice just how few of these rampages end with the shooter being taken out by police? Almost none of them. Most tend to take their own life with the smallest sign of force. I understand this school shooting ended when you could hear sirens. In Portland, a mall shooting ended when a CCW carrier pointed a gun at the shooter and chose NOT to shoot because of the potential of hitting an innocent. At that point the shooter took his own life. http://www.therightperspective.org/2012/12/16/gun- owner-confronted-oregon-mall-shooter/ At some point, it just seems you have to accept the reality that the sooner armed resistance is given, the sooner the violence ends. An armed cop in every school? I have no problem with that, other than most municipalities are already stretching the budget thin. The reality is that if you want to find real solutions, it will be multifaceted, not a single solution. I do agree though that guns are, oddly enough, part of the solution. I wonder how many people could be killed with a machete? Think about that, you never have to reload. Talk about a high capacity weapon! | ||
| Psykick_machanik |
Banning guns would be as useful as banning computers to stop child porn. It is the human equation that needs the attention, the mental health system and its failings. May god hold those children and comfort their families. | ||
| Sifo |
Just kind of thinking out loud here. Feel free to blast holes in the following. I recent decades there's been a real effort to get those with mental health, and psychological problems out of the institutions and out into mainstream society. While this is likely an admirable goal, it seems that it may come at the cost of having this sort of thing happen from time to time. There is certainly a real result of an increase in the homeless from these policies too. OTOH, if I were the parent of a kid with Asperger's, I don't think I would take to well having everyone looking sideways at my kid thinking he/she was likely to turn into a mass murderer. | ||
| Sifo |
At one point they wanted to ban the printing press to stop the proliferation of porn. Generally speaking, it's best not to blame the tools for how they are used by some. | ||
| Drkside79 |
What i would worry about with arming the teachers is the judgment required. they are teachers not trained professionals. Will their judgment end in them killing a kid accidentally. that's a lot more guns in schools i would say an accident would be unavoidable. As to your comment on the gunman normally not being killed by police. How often was one present at the time of the event. not dispatched and en route. As to the budgets. You are 100% right. I also think that will be the problem. However once again it comes down to mismanagement of money. an extra 40K a school would be attainable if we weren't being robbed every time Congress sat down ect. | ||
| Cowboy |
Ad bad as killing childrem in school is I have a problem with baning guns when thousands of babies are killed each year with scieples- I will gladly turn in my guns when the doctors give up thier sciepls. | ||
| Drkside79 |
@ cowboy the word you are looking for is scalpel. However i don't think your comment has anything to do with this discussion. I AM NOT GETTING INTO AN ABORTION DEBATE HERE!!!!! GO MAKE A NEW THREAD. (not yelling just making a point) @ Sifo you were right about the broad brush. it's early.  | ||
| Cowboy |
MURDER IS MURDER Killing children is muredr unless you are a LIBERSL they have thier own deffination, (BS) | ||
| Sifo |
Drkside, I really don't understand the idea that normal people won't use good judgement. The decision to carry isn't taken lightly by most people. Where education id required for that "right" (it is a right explicitly stated in our Constitution), the decision process is hammered on even more. I would have no problem with teachers who want to carry in school having to register that desire with the district. Even additional training if needed. I just don't see accidents being likely simply because a weapon is being carried in a holster. I would like to think that our teachers are balanced enough to not pull a gun out just for shits-n-grins. Then again, given how often teachers are in the news for their poor judgement, I may be way off the mark. I'm quite certain though, your $40K figure to provide an armed cop is way off. That won't cover most cops salaries, much less benefits, vehicle, etc. Having 1 out of 20 teachers carry (or what ever the ratio would work out to letting them voluntarily carry) would provide a safety net similar to the armed officers that fly on airplanes now. You never know who they are, or exactly how many there are. The point is, a school is no longer as soft of a target. Interesting story here. I'm sure we all, myself included, have been of the belief that this sort of thing is happening more and more often. That may not be the case at all... Mass shootings are not growing in frequency, experts say | ||
| Reepicheep |
The accidental shooting data was historically polluted by well meaning people trying to help the kids in a family when there was a suicide. Its probably not that way now, but take the historical data with a grain of salt. It's really hard to kill yourself "cleaning your gun", so that was generally an understood euphemism for suicide. | ||
| Oldog |
Place armed guards on school sites, not mall cops with guns but armed and armored officers using military spec equipment trained for the environ and situation give them the best training available a single clear point of access while school is in session and controlled access thru the day. I believe that this happens because the schools present too soft of a target Let a shooter try this in the armed guard set up and let him get shot ( and survive ) I bet it never happens again.... Oh and get ready another gun grab will start soon. | ||
| Sifo |
Oldog, I kind of like what you are saying, but I don't think it's feasible. A school in session has people coming and going ALL DAY LONG. It's surprising how many people come and go. This WILL lead to complacency with any guard. It would be easy to get the drop on the guard, then you are right where we were in CT. To change that equation, you will need multiple guards at each entrance. Now go to your local school and count the entrances. There's a bunch! The schools I've gone into have locked security doors. I've walked right up, waved and they buzzed me in. They had NO IDEA who I was at that point. I'll let you know if that's changed next time I go into a school. I don't do it THAT often. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The aim of arming teachers isn't necessarily in having a frightened teacher pull off a miraculous shot to drop an intruder. The goal is to make what would appear to be soft targets hard. Two of the teacher's had the time and foresight to hide their children. If the teacher were also armed, she could at least have made her room a much higher risk target than the hallway. So, children hidden, teacher armed hiding behind her desk for cover with gun aimed at the door. Staff would have safe word. Shooter would not. Door opens. Teacher fires first shot. Think the shooter is more likely or less likely to enter the room. Passes this room to go to the next one. Same thing. Doubt the shooter will try a third room, do you. | ||
| Drkside79 |
>>>>Door opens. Teacher fires first shot. and it's not the intruder but another kid or faculty member fleeing. Oh and Sifo... Olddog said the same thing as me but you like the idea? Biased much? | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
In the last 4 years a character assisination has taken place at an unprecedented level. We've had celebrities calling for murder or publishing the address of Robert Zimmerman before all the facts were known and use of this case to demonize law abiding gun owners. Demonization of tea party groups and veterans by this administration along with policy guidelines designed to scare the public. We've had major media and entertainment folks say the most vitriolic things about Americans who don't agree with them. In the last couple of weeks staunch supporters of this admin. have called for the president to imprison political enemies like a dictator would and another actor said how cool it was he got to murder white people in his latest movie all to grand applause from the audience. We are not united are leaders are not laying the groundwork for us to come together. Before common citizens are asked to disarm I think it would be appropriate for the members of the media, famous entertainers and politicians who are leading this charge of new gun laws if not total gun ban to disarm themselves meaning all armed security detail. Because in this country, all of our law abiding citizens have a right to protect themselves and family no matter how poor they are. |
