| Author | Message | ||
     Johnnylunchbox |
Pdxs3t said “It not all about the gun, its also the shooter. You could have the best of anything and still suck.” About 6 or 7 years ago I went to a local range with my wife and my brother-in-law. My b-in-law brought his antique .30-06 P17 Enfield. We went to the 100 yard range, and between the two of us we put about 20 yards downrange and all hit the paper, but we didn’t have anything that could be called a great grouping. We decided that we would have to shoot a few more and adjust the sights maybe. I convinced my wife – an absolute beginner- to give it a go. The range officer saw us and came over to chat about the gun, and to give my wife a few pointers. I also talked to her about trigger control, and proper sight alignment and she was ready to go. The range officer brought over his spotting scope, and told to her to fire when ready. 1st shot dead in the 10 ring. 2nd shot same thing. 3rd shot – you see where this is going. Fast forward to about a year later, my wife and I went back to the range. She was shooting my .22 Marlin model 60, and I was shooting my marlin camp 9mm. The same range officer comes over and points the scope down range and compliments my wife on her grouping, saying that she’s shooting better than all the other guys out there with their fancy rifles. He then begins to tell us a story about how a while back two guys and girl showed up and were shooting some antique iron, and the girl – new to shooting- put all the shots in the ten ring, while the guys were all over the paper. I laughed and pointed out that that was us. He immediately recognized us and he told us that he uses that story all the time when he gives his firearm safety classes. The moral being that my wife had not developed any bad habits, and listened to the instructions, and as such became a great shooter. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Fb1... Yes, the Mini 14 has improved accuracy over what it was in the past, it is a proven design and very reliable and capable of its intended purpose. I did not say it was a "bad" rifle only that it is not as accurate as an AR. "Poor" accuracy might have been too harsh a word and subject to too much opinion. As much as I like the Mini and hope to own one when the price and time is right, I prefer the accuracy, options availability, and "feel" of an AR over a Mini. I would tend to go for a mini 30 before a 14 I am more thankfull that we have all of these options and can own what the individual likes the best. | ||
| Pdxs3t |
If you shop it right, you can get into a Mini for around $650. They can be found around $600, but you have to dig for those. Used Mini's can be found as low as $350. The comment of if a Mini cost $700, an AR based rifle wins hands down...REALLY? Who say's? That's like saying if a Buell cost's $10,500 and Honda cost's $11,000 the Honda is a better bike and win's hands down. I'm sure you'd argue that, wouldn't you? When it come's to buying a .223/5.5mm semi-auto rifle. Do your home work. Read about all that is available. Understand what you are buying. Know it's intended purpose. The AR based rifle is crazy (for example). There are so many different offerings by so many different companies, its insane almost! You really have to know what you are buying, in great detail, to avoid getting short sheeted. And the funny thing, most all of the companies source their parts, to build what they offer. Just a few actually make from the ground up, an AR based rifle. | ||
| Nukeblue |
i really don't want to feed this "ar vs mini" direction the thread is going. your passion lies with the mini's & mine with ar's. both ours with buells! you got some nice looking mini's there, esp the 30. sexy stock. i happen to have a syn folding stock for a mini if you're interested  i'd let it go cheap since i got rid of the mini last year... (Message edited by nuke-blue on November 27, 2012) | ||
| Fb1 |
Passion is good. I'm enjoying the "debate," and learning a lot in the process. | ||
| Pdxs3t |
lol...Thanks for the offer for the folder. I have a Choate folder, that's been sitting around for 25 years that I've never used. I don't like shooting the Mini-30 because of the stock. It's soooooo pretty, I don't want to ding it up. A new stock, is one of the things I'm going to do, to freshen her up. I'd like a Bell & Carlson but those are hard to find anymore. It all does boil down to personal pref and the shooter. Buy what you like and buy what you can afford. Just be educated about what you are buying. And don't be affraid of the Mini platform, it does work and work well. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"Passion is good. I'm enjoying the "debate," and learning a lot in the process." Me too. Now that is well said and what this board is and should be all about, passion, and of course, mixed with a bit of patience and tolerance. Check the folks out here for a classy firearms board, no politics or religion allowed, and that's OK. http://berettaforum.net/vb/index.php | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Blake, If your going to plunk down $1200 for a rifle. Here is an offering from Springfield Armory, an M1A SOCOM 16. This is one bad ass rifle that is well worth looking at! .  | ||
| Aesquire |
The Mini, like the M1A, and the Garand & M-14 before it, can have accuracy issues because of the... operating rod front barrel band exact pressures and resonance effects of the stock where in contact with above... Many of the tuning tricks for the Garrand design series ( M1, M-14, M1A ) work on the Mini, and there's an element of luck when you buy any of the above. ( The Ruger Target model with the tuning weight up front can really be dialed in for particular ammo... it's all in the vibes.... ) Piston AR's also have vibe related issues. Some can be excellent, some mediocre. With a direct gas impingement AR, it's all in the barrel. If it's mediocre.. that's that. If it's good, it makes no difference what it's made from or how thick it is, its good. Free floating the barrel is the basic accurizing trick, because with no moving parts hanging off it, it can vibrate freely. ( and more important, the SAME vibe every time ) There's luck in getting a "good one" in all the guns we're talking about. The Mini does have a proven track record as a tough, works every darn time, year after year truck gun. Neglect, cold, heat, dirt, vibration and outright abuse, and it just keeps on ticking. Any given AR or Mini can be expected to hit a standard target out 200 yards. Some will do much better. not sure how the stats on that work out. | ||
| Blake |
Excellent! Thanks all! I'm less about passion and tinkering, more about performance, practicality and education. The Colt M4 Wallyworld special and the M&P15 are on the short list. I may be turning into a gun nut. Is it wrong to polish cartridges and set them out on display? | ||
| Pdxs3t |
As you have seen Blake...You really have to be schooled, before you make an AR purchase. There are a lot of variable's with one. Ruger makes a really nice piston driven one called the SR556. AR based or Garand based, you won't go wrong either way. AR based, you'll have to pay more attention to maintenance and cleaning, then you will a Garand based rifle. It sounds like your set in a direction though, which is good. Read up on the SOCOM 16, .308” is a nasty cartridge in a semi-auto rifle, especially in a M1A. Maybe that will turn ya to the other side? | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"AR based, you'll have to pay more attention to maintenance and cleaning..." This is a common held fallacy that is a hold-over (stigma) from issues with the first AR's: weapon itself, powder used in the original ammo (not what Mr. Stoner spec'd), and the lack of lubrication. There are more than one torture tests of the current design that have disproved this myth. The AR likes to be run with adequate lubrication. (Message edited by Ninefortheroad on November 28, 2012) | ||
| Reepicheep |
What are the AK-74's going for these days? I was determined not to like them, because they are a trendy slapped together gun. Unfortunately, I then shot one, and that ruined everything. They are *very* well designed machines. | ||
| Nukeblue |
anyone ever hear of the "filthy 14"? check this out. quality ar's are reliable as hell http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-50511 .html **EDIT= and another link that's good stuff http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ (Message edited by NUKE-BLUE on November 28, 2012) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"If your going to plunk down $1200 for a rifle. Here is an offering from Springfield Armory, an M1A SOCOM 16." I haven't seen a new one by us for less than 1500.00, but that's full retail, I'm sure you could get one on Cheaper Than Dirt or GunBroker much cheaper than a Gander Mtn. I have plans for a used M1A I got for a steal. I already got a Krieger match grade barrel, but now am saving up for the Sage EBR stock. My gun should look something like this by summer.........   | ||
| Macbuell |
I agree with Nine. It's good to keep the AR clean but as long as it is well lubed, it should perform flawlessly unless there is an issue with the Ammo. | ||
| Macbuell |
Also, one of the advantages of the AR in .223/556 is the availability and relative cheap price of ammo. Someone looking into a .308 or another caliber should consider that. You will be spending a lot more on ammo. Also, a lot of gun ranges will allow you to shoot .223. Some of those same gun ranges will NOT allow you to shoot larger caliber rounds. Unless you have access to an outdoor range, that should be a consideration as well. IMO, there is no point in having a rifle in a caliber that you cannot shoot somewhat regularly as that is the best way to improve your accuracy and familiarity with the weapon. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ran by the local gun shop today looking for a better sight for a $89 H&R break action 20 gauge... Dang. Guns are getting stupid expensive. Or probably more accurately, dang, the value of the dollar has really been ruined. Remember when you could buy an SKS for far under $200? Or when an AK was under $400? CZ 82 for $160? CZ-52 for $120? Mosin for $80? Swedish Mauser for $79? Dang. | ||
| Nukeblue |
one of my first was an sks. paid $125 for it. that same gun mow is almost $400. i wondered why you keep mentioning them lol they're not such a great value anymore when you can get an ar for just over $600 and ak's are $700-ish | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Nine: Dude really? Its a gas direct impingement system. Its flithy as hell, proven fact! | ||
| Sifo |
I just stopped by the store that had the RRA Operator 2 at $999. All gone, but they are taking orders. The catch is that on Dec. 1st the price is going up to $1299. Give me 2 days to decide if I want to jump on that deal. The wife tried shouldering a similar weight gun and predictably she liked a lighter version. They didn't have the M&P sport, but we check out a more expensive model. The trigger just isn't up to what the RRA trigger offers. Still it was second best with some others that we checked out in guns under $1500. They did have another RRA at $890 with not as nice furniture, but a lightweight barrel. The wife says buy what I will like. I would like her to like it too, but she's not sure she will even like shooting a rifle. It really messes with her being right eye dominate, but left handed. Confusion and a near by deadline for a good price on a great gun.  I may be kicking myself later if I don't jump on it. | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Prices on firarms have been going up over the last 6 month's in a steady fasion I've noticed. I'm guessing in part, because of the election and its end result. Ammo price's have gone up too! In my area, on average a box of .223/5,56mm is costing $8.99 per box of 20. I can buy the cheap Russian crap that they sell everwhere for $4.50 a box of 20. But why do that to a quality built firarm? Oh, let's not forget reloading. I can't even buy primers, because they fly off the shelf because of the horder's. And when primers are in its $4.00 for a box of 100. There was a day not too long ago it was $1.00. | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Blake, Here is one of the things you have to think about when you buy an AR based rifle. It blows all of its yuck right back into the receiver. Because its a direct impingement system, which is found in all $600 priced AR's. You don't start finding piston driven based AR's until you hit the $1200 range or so. Its a very dirty design. That's why its drilled into a young boot during boot camp to clean their weapon. Its not because the DI has nothing better for them to do. Its because, the weapon needs to be kept clean, to ensure reliable operation.  | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Here is a decent read, about the two systems... http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/ar-gas-pi ston-gas-impingement/ | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Pdxs3t... There is no getting away from getting parts dirt whether it is the system used in and AR or a short stroke piston driven system. They all get dirty and require cleaning. The only time that heat plays into it is in sustained full auto firing, the short stroke piston system tends to run cooler. DI system are most the time lighter the other systems | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Some systems though, foul more then other's. The DI is one of those designs, that is proven fact. It blows its hot gasses right back into the receiver! And yes, you are correct, they all require cleaning. Just some more then other's. Back to what I originaly said, buy what you like, buy what you can afford but be educated at what you are buying. | ||
| Mnrider |
Also some ammo is dirtier than others. I've run about 600 rounds through my M&P 15 sport and take it apart every hundred rounds or so. I've only been using Federal AR tactical 223 and the gun stays very clean. My M&P 15-22 gets very dirty after a couple hundred and needs to be cleaned and oiled lightly. | ||
| Nukeblue |
in my opinion the piston systems are either over rated or still in developmental stages (with the ar). last year i bought an lwrc m6a2, it's considered one of the best out there. after shooting it all summer in local rattle battles & lots of tactical stuff out back i ended up selling it. reason was it went through 3 piston return springs, two cups, one buffer & spring & it damaged the upper receiver from carrier tilt. i sent it back three times before they figured out the buffer problem. lifetime warranty & the customer service was outstanding. the spring stuff i replaced myself as needed. that was approx 3,000 rounds or so. and believe me, i made love to it & kept it real clean & lubed. that was my exp & now i'm back to gas guns. don't believe all the hype i guess | ||
| S21125r |
"Is it wrong to polish cartridges and set them out on display?" Blake - Nothing wrong with that, especially if your teenage daughter decides to bring her greazy 'stached boyfriend by the house in his souped up Camaro... | ||
| Fb1 |
..her greazy 'stached boyfriend... You mean THIS guy?  If the shiny cartridges all lined up in a row don't do the job, I break out the photo album:    And if THAT doesn't work, we watch movies!!  (Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm, 7 yards, Winchester white box) |
