| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
For a newb in the realm of black guns, specifically the AR/.223 models, all the options for a custom build are flat out overwhelming. Help me out here. What are the basic points to consider and why bother versus just laying down $1,200 at my local Walmart for a new Colt AR15 or buying the M&P15 at my local gun store? | ||
| Mtnmason |
Johnymc - that beautiful SCAR you have was manufactured about an hr north of me. Trying to get the scratch saved up to have my own (same color) before its too late. Two questions - 5.56 or 7.62? and is "Fredericksburg, Va." stamped on it anywhere? | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"For a newb in the realm of black guns, specifically the AR/.223 models, all the options for a custom build are flat out overwhelming." Short answer to a very complex and unbelievably opinionated subject... For a newb, the only truly smart move is to get the "gold standard" of M4, the Colt 6920 from almost any WallyWorld. Then shoot the piss out of it. Shoot other peoples AR/M4 that have "custom" add-ons to find out what you like or don't like, better yet, what really works for you. Take a reputable training class. You will find that all the extra stuff that you thought you needed will be coming off pretty quickly. Why do a custom build when you don't really know what you want and have little or no experience with the AR/M4 weapons. For me "KISS" is the best unless you like to tinker. (Message edited by Ninefortheroad on November 27, 2012) | ||
| Nukeblue |
the wallyworld colt is considered one of the best buys out there | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Two questions - 5.56 or 7.62? and is "Fredericksburg, Va." stamped on it anywhere?" That's a 5.56 I believe. The magazine is tell. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"the wallyworld colt is considered one of the best buys out there" WalMart is selling that Colt LE 6920 cheaper than what Gander Mtn is paying for it. And we buy more guns than any other retailer. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Blake, the biggest question you need to ask yourself is, "how far do I want to go with this?" It's really easy to get caught up in AR's. I liken it to having a motorcycle. You can mod them to death. Thing is you can buy bare-bones AR platforms and build them, you can buy semi finished and in some cases, AR's with EoTech already installed. Personally, I toss crap on them so my latest is a Black Rain with a custom milled barrel and quad rail. If folks tell me they want to spend as little as possible, I always be sure they know that guns with non-removable carry handles can be a pain for optics use and Optics Ready guns in many cases are the way to go because you can add aftermarket flip up sights if you need them. The most asked question I get is, "this thing has a front iron sight, if I mount red dot, ACOG or scope, won't it be in the way?" The answer is simple sorta. Yes and no. Depending on the sight, some optics will be above the sight and in just about every case, the front sight will "ghost" back. I have a Burris Xtreme Tactical scope/piggy back that when I look at the retical I see an image of the front post, but is doesn't interfere with the magnification or sight picture. Make a long story short, before you plop down 1000-1300, ask yourself if you want entry level or something more advanced. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Mtnmason, thanks its a great rifle. Its the 16 or .556 version. I've heard the 17 (.308) version is a dream to shoot due to lighter recoil than most .308 rifles. I'll have to check on stamping. Blake, go for the colt if you want something that will keep good value but if on a budget you can't hardly go wrong with any of them. Bushmaster makes good rifles too. If you want something a little more expensive and unique save up some more and get the IMI tavor bullpup when it comes out. It will be in the 1500-2000 range most likely. The berreta ARX is another one to wait for. | ||
| Macbuell |
Mark, If you need a RISR for good sight alignment, you can't go wrong with Larue. P_Squared, that is exactly what I want one for. Thanks for the feedback. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
The SCAR 17S heavy is one of the lightest shooting .308's I've ever shot. The recoil is not that far from the 16S. I can easily see why this thing is a military weapon. I can easily see why SOCOM would use this thing. | ||
| Macbuell |
Blake, I really didn't know jack about AR's before I bought mine. For that reason I chose to buy and S&W M&P15 Sport because I didn't think it was worth spending a ton of money when I really didn't know what the extra money was being spent on. In the end, I am very happy with my purchase. The rifle has performed flawlessly and I do not miss any of the features that would have cost me hundreds of extra dollars. I added a Magpul MOE Stock, a Truglo Red Dot Site, a Magpul Handgaurd, Magpul AFG grip and I think it's perfect for me and my purposes right now. Those purposes are fun at the range and home defense. That rifle with all those extras that I added cost me less than most pay for a Standard AR without any extras. Reviews for the M&P15 Sport have been very positive and for the price, I don't think you can go wrong. That's just my two cents. (Message edited by macbuell on November 27, 2012) | ||
| Sifo |
Blake, Newb to newb here, but I've spent quite a few hours trying to sort this stuff out in my own mind. Here's some of what I'm currently considering. I like the flat top design for the reasons mentioned by Buellinachinashop. Fixed sights are great if you KNOW you don't want to ever mount optics. Barrels are either chrome lined or not. They say chrome barrels last longer, but are slightly less accurate. I don't consider myself to be good enough with a rifle to know the difference in accuracy (it's supposed to be slight), but if I shoot a chrome barrel enough to wear it out maybe I'll get that good. Until then, I'd like the durability. Also the non-chrome lined barrel may require lots of cleaning during break-in, depending on who you want to believe. Chrome just simplifies things to me. Triggers vary a lot. I don't need a really light trigger on a rifle, but a good 2 stage trigger feels right to me. RRA makes one that I would be quite happy with. I haven't tested enough to give opinions on other brands. I shoot pistols enough that a gritty trigger would drive me nuts. A floating hand guard is something I would like to have. The normal hand guard is attached to the barrel at the front of the guard and when using a sling to shoot with, it does tend to pull the barrel off target. How much will depend on your technique. Technique tends to vary with different shooting stances too, so it will not be the same for all your shooting no matter how consistent you are in your technique. The floating hand guard solves this by only attaching at the back of the guard, and the sling should be attached to the hand guard, not the gas block on the barrel. Still, plenty of GIs have managed to do quite well with the military issue hand guard. I would also want a threaded barrel that allows you to swap flash hiders/muzzle breaks. Barrels also vary in weight. Heavy barrels will dampen tremors slightly (unless the weight causes fatigue that will create more tremors). This has me leaning toward a light barrel because the wife will like the weight better. I could live with either. The heavy barrels will stay more accurate when hot. I really hope I'm never in a situation where that becomes a concern for me. That would probably mean I'm having a REALLY bad day. Beyond that, they can be customized in all sorts of ways to make them exactly what you want. The RRA Operator 2 fits most of my wants pretty well and has some very nice additional stuff at a good price. OTOH, I can see that a custom build can be done and hit ALL my major features and still be better on price if I go cheaper on some of the things that are just "nice". At the same time, a top notch shooter with a bare bones AR will probably out shoot me regardless of how much I spend. I do like to tinker with things though, and I know that I wouldn't be likely to ever keep a bare bones AR stock. It's just not in my DNA. I welcome comments on my opinions from those who have experience with ARs. I'm still very new to this game and my opinions are only set in jello. | ||
| Sifo |
For those who want to "build", rather than assemble a gun, check this out. It's a low budget AK build. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads /179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning! | ||
| Nukeblue |
in my opinion the float tube concern is over rated. the only time i had one affect accuracy was when laying prone slung up tight, REAL tight, shooting high power long range slow fire with a standard a2. it pulled it left about three inches at 300 yards. for any carbine i don't see it being a problem. awesome ak thread! lol | ||
| Nukeblue |
front sight posts dissapear with optics. scope or red dot. non issue. front fixed sight post is real tough though and good to have if you ever get in a situation where your barrel gets real hot  | ||
| Sifo |
in my opinion the float tube concern is over rated. the only time i had one affect accuracy was when laying prone slung up tight, REAL tight, shooting high power long range slow fire with a standard a2. it pulled it left about three inches at 300 yards. for any carbine i don't see it being a problem. I was kind of expecting someone to come forward with this opinion. I have no first hand experience to offer, so it's all hearsay, but I did just read an opinion from someone claiming to be pulling about 4 inches off at 100 yards. I'm guessing that your exact technique is going to have something to do with the variance. Perhaps learning a different technique could be cheaper than an expensive floating hand guard.  I have to admit, this is an aspect that I'm struggling with in my decision. I assume that the floating guard is a simple upgrade if you find the need... True? I know it can be a fairly expensive upgrade depending on the style. I also know that the standard guard is pretty cheap, so not too much cash is thrown away if you replace it. Am I on target with this line of reasoning? It could steer me to a more affordable piece to start with. | ||
| Nukeblue |
if it were me... if i was doing a target, dmr,or varmint hunter application, go heavy 18" barrel & floated hand guard. for a fighting carbine you don't really need it. but if you plan on attaching gizmos all over it get a quality lightweight metal quad rail. the rock river one you were looking at is pretty heavy. something from here... http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuse action=category.display&category_ID=1030 | ||
| Nukeblue |
another thing to think about (can't remember if it's been mentioned) is going with a mid-length gas system. supposedly a softer recoil hit than the carbine & more reliable , although i can't really feel a difference. what i love about it is the x-tra 1&1/2" sight radius you gain. more accurate at distance through the irons | ||
| Fb1 |
Anyone have any experience with the Ruger Mini-14?  Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, Stainless http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14RanchRifle/mod els.html  Mini-14 Tactical Rifle, Blued http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/ models.html | ||
| Macbuell |
I don't have any experience with the Mini-14 but I looked into it before I bought my M&P15 Sport. It generally got very good reviews and the benefit from what I remember was that it was a simpler rifle than the AR15 and you could also mount a folding stock. | ||
| Sifo |
So who can tell us about 1-7 vs. 1-9 rate of twist. Why should I want one or the other? Also, how's the trigger on the Colt from Wally World? Single or two stage. It would take an out of state trip to get to the nearest Wally World that still sells fire arms though. | ||
| Nukeblue |
you might check on out of state laws on sales. i'm not sure if you can do that..? anyhoo the 1-7 twist rate is used to stabilize the heavier projectiles like 69 gr to 77 gr stuff and heavier law enforcement man stoppers. 1-9 is good to i think the nato 62 gr and down. more for plinking. heavier as i'm sure you know = more energy & accuracy with match bthp stuff. on the mini-14, my opinion is they stink! well at least for what i would use it for lol. i had one & used it in a rattle battle once. after about half way through the barrel must have turned into a noodle or something. it literally wouldn't hit a man sized target at 100 yds. it was embarrassing lol. sold it promptly! however it may be more at home on a farm or something | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"Anyone have any experience with the Ruger Mini-14?" You will find that they are very reliable but accuracy is poor after the first shot or two. In general all AR's will out shoot a mini 14 accuracy wise after several rounds I don't like the way they handle compared to an AR | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Macbuell I am with you on the S&W M+P Sport. I also got one for the reasons you have stated and only added a rubber butt pad to add LOP and a BCM Mod1 grip The Colt 6920 is still the only AR in the +/- $1,000 range I would recommend to anyone especially a newb. The only cheap AR I would recommend is the S&W M+P Sport, so far mine is more accurate than me and flawless running mostly cheap ammo. (Message edited by Ninefortheroad on November 27, 2012) | ||
| Fb1 |
Nuke and Nine, I've read a ton on the Mini-14 - I've got a good buddy who's got one and swears by it. I've read over and over that the older Mini's had accuracy problems due to the barrel, but that the newer Mini's from have a stouter barrel and the accuracy woes are a thing of the past. That's what I've read, anyway. Seems like it could be a great SHTF gun, especially with a 20- or 30-round clip chucked up in it. The price is right, and for me the relatively simple operating platform is a plus. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
For a budget rifle; AK variant>mini14 | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Hey, I know that buddy! I'd take my 185 Series Mini over any other tactical rifle out there. Its dependable and reliable and if I had to, would trust my life with it. I'd even step up at any range, and shoot side by side with a like built AR and hold my own. And if I broke out my Mini-30 189 Series, I would embarass the like built AR, badly. It not all about the gun, its also the shooter. You could have the best of anything and still suck. The Mini paltform is a solid platfom. It works and works well. Its design is battle proven, dated back to WWII. Buy what you can afford and buy what you like. If I had the money, I'd own a couple of Galil's...Truth be told, I'd still reach for my trust Mini-14. | ||
| Fb1 |
Hey, I know that buddy! Nice softball I served you up, eh?? How 'bout some pix of your Mini's, amigo? | ||
| Nukeblue |
mini's used to be about $450, now arent they more up to the price of an m&p sport? like $700 or so? in that case the ar wins hands down | ||
| Pdxs3t |
Here is my Mini-14, 189 Series, in its current state. The stock is in the process of getting a make over, with some Duracoat and relocation/addition of some swivel studs, so I can use a 3 point sling. Me and conventional slings don't get along anymore, because of my disablity. I've owned this rifle since 1987 and paid $295 for it. There is a few more things, I plan on doing to her. New rear sight by Tech-Sights. I have a recoil buffer coming in. Trigger job and bed the stock. Then, she'll be frsh once again.  And this is my Mini-30, 189 Series .308" bore, in its current state. For optics, its sporting a vintage Bausch & Lomb 3x9x40mm. Great scope...was $300 back in 1992. Would hate to think what the scope would cost today? I've owned this one since 1992 and paid $400 for it. I'm wanting to do a small make over on her. Still not too sure what direction to go. My just keep it simple and do just a few cosmetic things, to freshen her up.  I would trust my life with either rifle. Both shoot well, didn't cost me too much and if I wanted, I could really trick em out. Neither are bench rest rifle's. They never were intended to be. Both will shoot 2 MOA or better, depending on the day, ammo and shooter. New Mini-14 Tactical's (16" barrel) are sweet little rifle's. Ruger listened and made changes to improve the Mini platform, and it shows. Another Mini to look for is the Mini-14 Patrol Rifle. It can be seen on Ruger's website in the LE section. It has a 18 1/2" barrel, in stainless or blued, with 2, 20 rd magazines. |
