| Author | Message | ||
     Mr_grumpy |
Do you mean secession ? If so I fail to see why it should be Un-American. Look up "War of secession," In a country that calls itself "Land of the Free" on every conceivable occasion, I presume that citizens of such a place would have the right to express such opinions without being labeled traitor. But if you're just trolling as usual, I suggest you get a life, or an education, preferably both. If you're seriously interested in a sensible discussion however, try leaving the flame & the insulting terms at the door. People will react in a much more positive way to your thoughts & ideas if you treat them with the respect you should like to have accorded to yourself. | ||
| Glitch |
Right on Innes! | ||
| Davegess |
Mr. Grimpy you are correct on the word it is secession but the question of a state doing it seems to have been settled in a very bloody manner. | ||
| Britchri10 |
Hey, Innes; you pro or anti devolution (not secession) for Scotland. I think it might be relevant to compare as the UK is basically a confederation of countries & the USA is basically a confederation of states. Both are currently unified by the laws of their respective lands. IMHO: if a state wishes to leave the Union & a plebiscite vote approves, it should be allowed to do so. (I can't see it happening though. Too much federal money involved etc'). Vive Ecosse. Chris C | ||
| Macbuell |
The federal government can have as much of a problem with it as they like, I have a hard time seeing US Troops agreeing to engage American citizens. | ||
| Glitch |
No one is shedding blood. Just talking Freedom, which I'll admit scares the $#!t out of some folks, for then there's plenty of government to care for them. If a state would go the way of secession today, the first blood would not be drawn by those wanting secession. | ||
| Sifo |
Joining the US, as we are seeing with Puerto Rico, is up to the state, not the US. Leaving the US is the same thing. The US government doesn't own the states or the people. I won't say this often, but on this one, Grumpy nailed it.  | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Oh I'm pro, if Scotland becomes independent I can have dual nationality & my son triple. England, for me, has turned into a shithole that I visit to see friends & family, & is inconveniently between France & Scotland. I was born & bred in East Anglia & I'll always love that big bleak winter sky out in the Fens, (you American chaps ask your WWII Air Force relatives), but the place doesn't feel like home any more, & whenever I go I find myself wishing for the moment I can get on a plane or a ferry, or cross the border going north. It saddens me to feel this way about my homeland, but we no longer share the same values. I can't live in a place where illegal immigrants are fed clothed & housed when they're caught, but the innocent driver of the truck they illegally stowed away in is subject to a £2000 fine per individual, & if he can't pay his assets are seized. It may sound like an exaggeration to some, but I personally know families that have been destroyed this way & it disgusts me. I don't like the Big Brother mentality there either, I know it'll eventually happen everywhere but I don't have to like it. I'll not be taking French nationality either, I'm quite happy being a "Stranger in a strange land" or resident alien, I relish the difference it accords me, while at the same time I'm integrated into the Society having learned the language & customs of the place. | ||
| Britchri10 |
I, too believe in self determination. If a majority is in favor (note the spelling, i'm getting assimilated!) then I see no reason why a mutually agreed split should be disallowed. (Scotland or Texas.) On a personal note: wild horses could not drag me back to live in England. I don't hate the place I just can't say I like the way it has changed in the last 25 years. Chris C | ||
| Glitch |
Not to worry Dave, I just checked and Wisconsin is happy with statehood. | ||
| Davegess |
Actually I would be pretty happy if Lousiana, Missisippi, Alabama and Alaska all left. They are huge feeders at the federat teat. Texas would be a loss, they pay more then their share. I think is all the red states left the blue states would be looking pretty good economically. We would save a lot of money if we stopped proping up the red states | ||
| Fb1 |
Glitch, this whole thing seems backwards to me: If one doesn't agree with/doesn't abide by the Constitution, THEY should have to secede from the Union. I'd start with every liberal politician in or from Illinois... | ||
| Cowboy |
It must be very dark where some people have thier heads The revenue produced by thost states is massave and remember they are not credted with the revenue from thier offshore waters. | ||
| Davegess |
thanks cowboy I always like insults. See ya later. | ||
| Drkside79 |
I say go ahead and secede it worked out so well last time why not try again. Better yet if you don't like it pack your stuff and move. No one stops you from doing that either. remember though that our military takes an oath to protect against enemies foreign and domestic. And in no way will the government let a state secede peacefully. (Message edited by drkside79 on November 13, 2012) | ||
| Macbuell |
Actually I would be pretty happy if Lousiana, Missisippi, Alabama and Alaska all left. They are huge feeders at the federat teat. Texas would be a loss, they pay more then their share. I think is all the red states left the blue states would be looking pretty good economically. We would save a lot of money if we stopped proping up the red states That's just too funny on many levels. There is a reason people have been moving to the sun belt in the last decade plus and it isn't just the weather. Favorable tax and union laws have brought many manufacturers and jobs from blue states. And if Louisiana and Mississippi leave they would control the Mississippi delta, a major shipping port/lane. That wouldn't be good for your blue states that rely on those shipping lanes like pretty much every state in the mid-west. But please continue ... this is entertaining. | ||
| Sifo |
According to our government our military is so weak that we can't even defend a consulate in Benghazi. I'm guessing Texas might just be able to defend themselves just fine. | ||
| Drkside79 |
ok since we are playing hypothetically lets try this game. >>>>And if Louisiana and Mississippi leave they would control the Mississippi delta, a major shipping port/lane. That wouldn't be good for your blue states that rely on those shipping lanes like pretty much every state in the mid-west. And what was the US response to Iran threatening to cut off shipping route? Also the South would have a damn hard time feeding themselves and their cattle without Midwest grain. I wonder how much we would charge for that? | ||
| Lightstick |
There sure is a lot of hatred for the USA on this forum. Just an observation. | ||
| Glitch |
Glitch, this whole thing seems backwards to me Yep, it's backwards, but what can we do about it? I'm not going to fool myself, and say any state will leave the union. I doubt many people actually have the testicular fortitude for such action. We're a nation of obese, lazy, gimme gimme people. As long as the government promises to give those that want "free" stuff, "free" stuff, we're screwed. Long gone are the days of working hard and keeping the fruit of our labor. Though I do see Atlas shrugging, I don't think it'll end up with smaller government, or anyone learning anything. They've made up their minds as to what should be, damn the Constitution, and all it stands for. The government has gotten bigger every year I've been living, not once getting any smaller. As long as those that depend on government outnumber those that don't, well, you see the result. For me and Ann, we're just going to continue with our plan, to live as simply as we can, with as little government intervention as possible. Our goal is to be self sufficient, and hope the government can just leave us be. But, thinking of states breaking off, is a fun exercise, I just don't think it'll happen. I will say however, if any state does, I'll move there. But please continue ... this is entertaining. It is, it really is. It's also kind of sad how few people have read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers...etc...and think they have all the answers. | ||
| Whatever |
Texas can take Florida and that state's archaic election system with them. We won't need Texas anyhow when we switch all the infrastructure to natural gas. Then Texas can go marketing their oil and gas elsewhere. The US can quit paying out enormous tax breaks to oil and gas, since they have made record profits the last four years, and instead invest in education so we can kick some Asian butt on the engineering and science front. No one wants to talk about the fact that our education system is terribly broken. After the sea levels rise, that will take care of Texas and Florida and we won't have to pay FEMA flood insurance to bail them out. Sounds good to me. And no, there really is no other reason than the weather that I moved to North Carolina. I have ancestors who served in every war, either as doctors or soldiers, including the revolution... my ancestors came into the Cape Fear River Basin, by Wilmington NC, around 1750... gonna look up the first grave in Bladen County some day... But, I will always be a Yankee. (Message edited by Whatever on November 13, 2012) | ||
| Glitch |
There sure is a lot of hatred for the USA on this forum. Just the opposite. There would be little debate at all if no one cared | ||
| Glitch |
Yeah, cause Texas ain't got no natural gas.  | ||
| Whatever |
Thing is, though... the development of natural gas through fracking has already created a glut on the market of natural gas. The only reason there is not any infrastructure development for using it is that the coal and oil lobbies will not allow it. I don't know what they will do with all of the natural gas these companies are holding as it is. None of the "drill baby drill" crowd has really thought the entire process through. It sure will be interesting to see what happens. That map is also three years old already too... fracking is coming to North Carolina, even though the majority of citizens here do not want it. From a regulatory standpoint it is a fascinating problem, becuase the industry is unregulated for the most part. I would not be surprised if the year 2012 alone would turn the entire state of Pennsylvania red. (Message edited by Whatever on November 13, 2012) | ||
| Macbuell |
And what was the US response to Iran threatening to cut off shipping route? Also the South would have a damn hard time feeding themselves and their cattle without Midwest grain. I wonder how much we would charge for that? You're missing my point. My post was in response to the ridiculous assertion that that US Would be better off without the Southern Red States. Both north, south and everywhere else in between relies on the other states for something ... some kind of good or service. So to say the United States is better off without the Red States is absurd. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I think the thing that you're all missing is in the wording of your country's name. The United States of America. If some of the aforementioned states, which by their very title of "states" are self governing separate entities, no longer feel they need to be "united" with the others & no longer wish to be "united" with the other states, what will those other states do? They will still be The United States of America, those that leave will have to find another name. The Breakaway States of America? The Independent States formerly known as..... If by an overwhelming majority of it's citizens voting to secede from the Union a state leaves, will the others band together to "occupy" that state by force? or will they try & blockade it? Drkside "remember though that our military takes an oath to protect against enemies foreign and domestic. And in no way will the government let a state secede peacefully. For that to be the case, the federal government representing the remaining states in the union would have to declare war on the secessionist states. An un-winnable conflict that would destroy both sides economically, socially & politically. Frankly I can't see it being economically or politically advantageous enough for most states, Alaska & Hawaii maybe, for geographical reasons, but for the contiguous 48 I see no real interest in secession. | ||
| Whatever |
 Look at that yellow bar in 2011... | ||
| Glitch |
Also the South would have a damn hard time feeding themselves and their cattle without Midwest grain. I find this kind of funny. Cattle by nature eat grass. The Cattle Industry feed cattle grains and the government subsidizes them for doing so. Right now I only eat grass fed cattle...from Georgia. Now back to the Civil War. Y'all, it ain't happening, we're sinking, but there's no one willing to do the hard things it takes to fix things. As soon as someone does step up with an answer, they're called a loon, and the politicians buy votes with the money they took from others to make sure they stay in power. That map is also three years old already too... It still shows my point that Texas has natural gas, that much hasn't changed. Where's your more up to date map that shows anything different? | ||
| Macbuell |
I can see it being viable for Texas having access to the Gulf to use for ports for goods and services and also due to their oil production. Other states, particularly land locked states that would be surrounded by states that are still in the union, it doesn't seem viable. Still, I can't ever see it happening but making waves to let the powers that be in DC know that you feel unrepresented seems like a good thing to me. This whole conversation makes me think of two quotes from our History .... "Those that would sacrifice some freedom for a little security deserve neither" And "Revolution every now and then is a good thing" | ||
| Glitch |
Why do Democrats / liberals go into overdrive if 'racists / trailer park trash' want to separate and you do not have to be responsible for them anymore? Why are you not glad? From another forum, quoted here, because I wonder too. |
