| Author | Message | ||
     Etennuly |
I recently acquired a propane powered truck and was wondering if anyone in BadWeB land has one or experience in operating one. The one that I have is a 2007 GMC 8.1L 5500. It is my first propane powered vehicle. I guess I am jumping on the learning wagon again! | ||
| Hughlysses |
My brother-in-law used to work for a propane company but that was a LONG time ago. I don't think there was much difference at all as far as operation. I know propane has less BTU's/gallon, but it has very high octane (over 100) so you can run higher compression and/or more timing advance which partially offsets the lower BTU rating. | ||
| Etennuly |
As it relates to gasoline, having run my first tanks out, and doing a bit of research, the power is about 5% to 10% higher than gasoline but mileage is down about 30% vs. gasoline, from what I am seeing thus far. Emissions are far lower, the carbon is missing so the engine is much cleaner all of the way through. I am hearing that some truck fleets change the oil filter at 10,000 miles and the oil at 20,000 with very good long term results. | ||
| Strokizator |
Engine oil will look brand new after several thousand miles. For a while, our work trucks were converted to run on propane or gasoline. Propane used to be cheap but not so much any more (close to $3/gal here). If you intend to keep a vehicle a long time, propane engines seem to last forever. | ||
| Cowboy |
It has been a long time sense we ran our tractors.what we found our 3 tractors of equel size Gasoline ran strong-55 gal per day. Disel tractor ran well but less.power 38 gal per day Butane tractor use 100 gal per day- and it would not pull your tool out of the butter bowl. | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
I use it in my J4000 ,it's running perfect summer and winter. Made a adapter to mount a impco 300a mixer direct onto the carb and put the original aircleaner with a k&n filter on. The only thing is that i have to keep an eye on the oil level a little more. In europe its quite normal to run cars on propane or lpg ,in the Netherlands especially the big engines and classic ones (no road tax and no extra fuel tax for cars from 25 years and older  ) | ||
| Sifo |
I had a '72 Mercury Comet that was modified with a kit to run propane or gasoline. Simple conversion kit and it could switch fuels on the fly. Ran great on propane. It was nice when the guy filling the tank didn't charge the road taxes too. It makes you realize just how much cash goes into taxes on gas! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Back in the day (prior to the mid-1970's), the problem with propane conversions was exhaust valve recession. The auto manufacturers had to switch to harder materials to accommodate unleaded gasoline, so now that's not a problem with propane. | ||
| Kenm123t |
We run ford V10s on propane and natural gas must harder the you ever will in a truck they last and do well. make sure your radiator is clean etc since you have no intake cooling from gasoline vaporization. | ||
| Brumbear |
I am very familiar with it. Are you running an Impco system or Aisen? | ||
| Etennuly |
The set up on my truck is by Bi-Phase. It is a direct injection factory set up. The company who owned it before me must have had a bugs in the radiator problem over many years of running these propane fueled trucks. All of the trucks that I have seen from them lately have bug screens over the grills. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The main problem I've come accross, running on propane or lpg, is significantly higher combustion / exhaust temperatures. The folk that I know who have done conversions, mostly smallblock mopars, have generally gone to tube headers due to cast iron cracking. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
More compression more advance in timing usually does mean higher egt's hope the headers are ceramic coated. | ||
| Etennuly |
I wish this 8.1L had a carburetor. I sure would feel better about having it set up as a dual fuel. Fueling propane over the road can be problematic. With the direct injection set up, the injectors/fuel pump/tank/lines/evap returns have to be changed to make gasoline work. If everything were laid in side by side, at the minimum the injectors would have to be swapped in. I have looked around and not found anyone who has made a carb type intake manifold for the 8.1 so far. I am thinking some of the LS engine stuff will fit, but I have found no one willing to answer to it yet. There are after market intakes for the LS family. | ||
| Brumbear |
Beam and Impco make dual fuel systems I have found impco to be the most cost effective and readily available system, You will have to rmember to clean the fuel system every couple months as the "smell" oil they put in propane will settle and gel up and cause problems. The cold start morning will need to be warmed up before you run or you will freeze up a vaporizer and esentailly flood the vehicle and it will not run. | ||
| Etennuly |
Beam and Impco make dual fuel systems I have found impco to be the most cost effective and readily available system, Yeah but do they make a dual fuel carb system for the 8.1? The cold start morning will need to be warmed up before you run or you will freeze up a vaporizer and esentailly flood the vehicle and it will not run. Is that why it has an external heater plug? I assumed it was an oil heater. It may be a fuel system heater. | ||
| Brumbear |
water heater remember you have a liquid withdrawl system so the antifreeze circulates through the vaporizer. | ||
| Brumbear |
try this http://www.impco.ws/IMPCO-catalogs.asp | ||
| Brumbear |
also hear I use these guys a ton http://www.helmarparts.com/IMPCO_s/178.htm | ||
| Etennuly |
Thank you for this information. I have so much to learn. This is my first round with LPG power. | ||
| Etennuly |
I thought this propane deal might be a pain in the ass. It IS! As with most gubmnt promoted "be green" "help the environment" programs they will help you into a situation then leave you hanging. The LPG dealers in my area do not want to deal with filling a truck. They fill home heating fuel tanks, but do not have licensed people at their main offices to fill tanks. They cannot bring the truck to my place to fill it for "insurance purposes". I can get a portable filling station for my business with a special insurance program, and an annually renewable license requiring annual schooling. I would have to become a dealer selling ten times what I personally need to break even with just buying what I actually use. The pricing is absolutely stupid. One place says if they could sell it to me it would be 2.85 per gallon, the next says $3.99 per gallon, and I know right now it costs them $1.55 or less. I called around some areas I might go with this truck to need refueled, equal stupidity. No one can say if a licensed person will be available to fill the truck. So getting hanged out without fuel is a real possibility. Some camp grounds with filling stations will not sell 100 gallons at a time because they have small satellite stations, and some said I may have to spend the night to wait for their licensed person to fill it. I found that I have to pay an annual $100 fee for registering the fuel use for the truck. It has to have it's tanks inspected and up dated at ten years, or less, no one has been able answer questions about this yet. I cannot use this fuel on a "we think we might be able to" question about fueling it when 600 miles from home. I checked into some companies who have propane fueled fleets and they cannot sell me fuel at their depots either. This might be a good program for a company with a fleet of trucks that do not travel beyond a full fuel load in a day, and wherein the fuel is bought and refiled in bulk, but one guy, having a single private use truck is not going to fare so well. Time to pervert it back to gasoline I guess, unless I find a complete diesel set up lying about. | ||
| Cowboy |
To bad you dont have a farm tractor that run on it. when we ssed it we had a 500 gal Tk. on a trailor and the delivery truck would come out and fuell it and we used it to re fill our tractors. and we just pulled it from field to field, as long as you dont use a pump it is very simple tp fill your self. never go a bove 85 o/o.--use the decanter system. | ||
| Brumbear |
What about buying a 33lber tank and hooking it up to your system? You can buy everything you need on the helmar web site. just use 2 tanks. Thats about 12 hrs continuous running time. http://www.helmarparts.com/Propane_Tanks_Propane_T ank_Parts_s/90.htm | ||
| Etennuly |
What about buying a 33lber tank and hooking it up to your system? You can buy everything you need on the helmar web site. just use 2 tanks. Thats about 12 hrs continuous running time 12 hours? I protest. Maybe at idle only. 33lb tank works out to about 5 gallons. That will only get about 32.5 miles running fairly easy. I had thought of this initially as a good back up until I found out what the actual fuel mileage is. This truck has two 82 gallon tanks that can hold 130 gallons total. It is averaging around 6.5 miles per gallon. That works out to 845 miles if the tanks can run to empty, but they stop about six gallons short of empty, I guess because of the shape of the tanks. So in reality it will run about 767 miles on two tanks. I have been told that the last six gallons or so in each tank that the pump will not pick up, will keep the engine idling for days. With an automatic transmission that does not compute to movement. My nephew runs propane in his pickup, a standard transmission, carb conversion, dual fuel. He ran out of LPG one time telling me that he put it in first gear and idled fifteen miles home on the berm. The worst part is that few filling stations out there in the distance, where I will need to refuel, will commit to being able to fuel the truck or even having enough LPG on hand to fuel it. They may have it, but won't commit to filling a truck. I had to take it to my insurance company for file photos yesterday. They were looking at me sideways when they found out about LPG fuel. I would be concerned if I were insuring it to. If it gets into the wrong kind of accident it can be a cause for an area evacuation or just make a huge divot in a highway.  | ||
| Arcticktm |
Vern, No way! I worked for a company called IMPCO, and then QUANTUM, for about 1-1/2 years in Michigan (they are based in California). I was actually a Sr. Integration engineer and program manager for the 2003 GMT800 programs. That was us putting a CNG, LPG or bi-fuel (CNG + gasoline) fuel system into a completed GMC/Chevy 2500HD pickup with the 6L V8 engine in it. I didn't work there long becuase there business plan was a joke and they never got anymore business beyond the GM truck and a Chevy Cavalier version. They shutdown the Michigan office after the 3rd round of layoffs (when I went to Arctic Cat). I have forgotten a lot, and the CNG trucks were our main focus (didn't make nearly as many LPG). I can tell you overall the the lack of lubricity (due to no liquid fuel) is a concern, but the reason we used a specific version of the V8 was because GM claimed to have hardened it for gaseous fuel use (including different valve seats). My old company (IMPCO/QUANTUM) designed and made all the gaseous fuel system parts, testing, and the retrofit assembly. I even got to witness a 45mph side crash fuel system safety test of the truck up at GM's Milford Proving Grounds. LPG had much better range than the CNG (since the fuel was liquid in storage and more dense), but was less popular because of some of the re-fueling issues you mention. CNG is not easy, either, but many large cities have at least a couple high pressure CNG refuelign stations, and most of these vehicles are bought by fleets (especially natural gas utility companies, not surprisingly). Back when I was there (around 2002) we were using special injectors made by Keihin while we tried to perfect our own design. Not sure if they finally got it right or not for your later model year truck. Sorry I don't have a ton to offer, but feel free to call or PM or whatever if you have more specific questions, and I will answer if I know anything! | ||
| Arcticktm |
...and don't kid yourself. The carbon is still there (it is still a hydrocarbon fuel, after all), but it does burn much more completely and cleanly than gasoline. That's why GM bothers to sell them. They get a huge CAFE bonus for each one they sell (or at least used to), and they generally easily qualify as ultra low emissions vehicles (ULEV), or even SULEV. Your truck is obviously much larger than the full size "HD" pickups I was involved with. Might be a conversion kit installed aftermarket? | ||
| Etennuly |
The system installed on my truck was done at GM. It is not a conversion, but rather a factory up fit order change with parts from an outside vendor. Not only do they(mfgrs) get gobmt kick backs, but the charge for the up fit is nuts! I spoke to a truck sales rep the other day about the gas verses diesel verses propane. He said if you want a gas engine on propane in a new truck, it will cost as much as $30,000 more. Now you know where the money comes from to subsidize the green fuel trucks! The tanks may pass a crash worthy test, but they stupidly have bronze fittings all over the tanks including a 1" bronze valve on the outside(exposed) part of the tank. I had to change these valves because the PO had removed the truck body that had side steps(as a bumper guard)hitting the valves on both tanks, cracking the fittings just enough to make them leak. 1" Bronze valves don't bend very far  . A side hit from a car with a plastic front bumper could easily knock these valves off causing a major LPG venting problem. Once it begins to vent it will do so until it is gone, one way or another. | ||
| Brumbear |
I have several Hyster s80xm forklifts in the fleet I care for weighing in @ 14,000 + lbs running 4.3 counter balanced Chevy engines with Impco systems with over 30,000 hrs on em. You could probably start em with a rope but thats near as I can figure = to about 900,000 miles. I know the 33 lber will run em 6-8 hrs on a 15 acre asphalt lot thats why I guessed @ 12 hrs on run time. | ||
| Etennuly |
I am seeing the validity of propane for localized fleet use, trucks, fork lifts, tractors, cars, and cooking grills. As the owner of an individual truck who intends to use it as I would a gas or diesel powered unit.....not so much. I want to use LPG, but the arguments against are getting stronger. First, I buy vehicles to sell them. The value of this propane powered truck is about half what it would be on gasoline. Diesel power makes it fully one third more valuable than gasoline power. Then there availability and convenience of getting fuel. This has to be the main reason for private use of propane vehicles to be so low. It is not that there are NO stations, it is the "we don't want to sell propane for a truck" attitude. There are seven listed operating propane dealers within 40 miles of me. Unless I have a 500 gallon home tank they will not fill anything. Now that retail stores are selling the "swap a tank" portable systems, they will not fill small tanks either. I am having to go 70 miles, to my nephew's station, to even get my truck filled, let alone haggle prices that are all over the charts. Fuel mileage sucks. At 6.5 mpg if propane is 30 percent cheaper in the summer and equal cost in the winter, gasoline will win out at 10 mpg, but most reports and folks I have spoken to say 12 to 13 mpg is more normal for running the truck most frequently empty, as I do. I work on these and larger trucks that run the duramax diesel. With a 24' box, loaded, running WFO, customers are saying they are getting 10+ mpg. The pick ups are doing 20+ depending of course on how they are run. My sissor lift is electric, my tractor is diesel, when I am grilling steaks I like charcoal, so unless I come across a propane powered off road fork lift, LPG is not on my happy list right now. | ||
| Brumbear |
I hear you it all comes down to cost effectiveness and sounds like it isn't right for you. | ||
| Etennuly |
I appreciate all of the responses. I am seeing that those of you whom use it at work in your company's fleet vehicles do not use it in personal transportation vehicles. This writing on the wall is getting clearer.  So to sum it up, from what I have garnered here, and in researching several other sources, LPG is not a user friendly gas for a single vehicle user. It is not cost effective mileage wise, you have to go out of the way to get it, the dealer sales network is not consistent, there are 'other' unknown rules and fees that can pop up at different filling stations. Calling ahead to distant stations does not mean you will find what you need when you need it. Being frequently stranded while on the road is a real possibility. The devaluation of the resale price of the vehicle makes sense. The Feds want another form filled out to track and tax your useage, the state requires a $100 annual sticker fee, that may not transfer if filling in another state. Looks like the argument for converting to gasoline is winning out.  |
