| Author | Message | ||
     Thumper74 |
I know there are a few gun guys and zombie fans here, so I was just throwing this out for mental masturbation since I'm done with finals and work is slower this week... I just reread the two and was wondering about the .22 for the eventual zombie apocalypse. In the survival guide, they recommend melee weapons or .22s. In WWZ, the SIR is a .22 due to the weight of the ammo (allowing more to be carried) and low recoil (faster follow up shots). The benefits are there, but what about the negatives? We have a round that is finicky and not all guns run it reliably. We also have a round that it's pretty unreliable compared to centerfire ammo in terms of bad rounds (never go off). A dead round isn't a death sentence as you could easily work the action and be back in the fight. Knock down power isn't a factor with the zombies since bleeding out isn't a goal, wound cavitation, etc. doesn't matter. The issue here is skull penetration... Is a .22 strong enough to penetrate a zombie skull reliably? At what range does it lose effectiveness for reliable penetration? | ||
| Aesquire |
Without going into the hypothetical question of how much damage you have to do to zombie brains to get a "kill"... which depends on the zombie mythos you chose to pick.... A .22LR is not a reliable skull cracker. It can, and has done so, but it's not a certainty by any means. Lots of bounces, and angles have and do happen. ( people have been shot with .22's for a century... ) But... with a rifle length 16" barrel... it's not that bad, since ammo is very light and you can take multiple shots. And may have to. You need lots of practice. ( and .22 is much cheaper to practice with... as we await the end time... Dec 21st? ) The nigh ideal weapon could well be the old Calico 100 rd rifle, ( seen as blasters in "The Empire Strikes Back" on Bespin. ) Or assuming you have access, the American 180 .22LR submachinegun. ( very rare, however, and long out of production, like the Calico ) In current times, a PS-90 from FN in 5.7 with 50 rd mags, would be Ideal. It is designed to penetrate armor, Is a centerfire and reloadable, ( just attach the available catch bag ) and, best of all, was used by hottie Colonel Samantha Carter on "Stargate SG-1". Downside is high price, and ammo costs about the same as .223. For a budget apocalypse, and certainly training, a Ruger 10/22 customized to your fancy is certainly viable, if not ideal. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Maybe I remember this from some movie somewhere...something along the lines of hit men preferring .22LR pistols for head shots because they are small, relatively quiet (especially if supressed) and don't make a big mess. "they just go in and rattle around without punching through the other side" But in the impending zombie apocalypse, you probably really don't want them getting that close anyway - so I'd go with the .338 LapMag at 800 meters or so. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I believe the Israeli military uses .22s for social work, but we're talking 'average' and lowest common denominator here. I like the 5.7 and Carter is a hottie. There is an AR57 out. It used PS90 mags and you can use a gutted AR mag as a brass catcher. My concern is the thickness of the forehead and the .22 round to do what it needs done in a 'head to head' fight. The hypothetical question is actually perfect! What parts of the brain are active after zombiefication? The hypothalamus controls hunger, but also sleep, thirst and body cycles. This is located at the top of brain stem, buried deep in the brain. A normal 'T' shot wouldn't do much to end this, but what about these other functions? What about walking? This part of the brain would be affected in a normal head shot, but we already have damage to the tissue, so more damage would be necessary to bring it down. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I'd have thought a Saiga 12 would be best. With OO buckshot you only need one shot & you don't need to be that accurate. Multi shot mags or even a bloody great drum. The ammo's cheap reliable & readily available. A lupara in your belt for backup too. | ||
| Thumper74 |
The Saiga 12 is a beast of a gun, 12 ga ammo is cheap and I don't ever recall a dud. 00 buck would be great, but 25 rounds (guesstimate)0O buck weighs as much as a 550 rounds of .22. Additionally, the spread depends on the range and the gun. I have a M3000 with an open choke with maybe a 2" spread with 20 ft, so accuracy would still be vital. However, worrying about zombie brain trauma shouldn't be a factor | ||
| Notpurples2 |
.22LR would be great for rural home zombie defense for the following reasons. 1.) Plentiful ammo. While everyone is raiding the stores for large caliber handgun ammo the boxes and boxes of .22 ammo are likely to be left behind. Also it's light and small and won't be hard to transport and store. 2.) Quiet. In all hypothetical zombie story lines noise attracts zombies. It also attracts other people which you might not want to do either. 22's are quiet to begin with and can be easily be made even more so with homemade silencers. I know with a good target 22 rifle I can hit a bullseye (or zombie eye) at 100yrds. With my 17hmr I can put 3 in a dime. You'd need plenty of other weapons too; handguns and shotgun for last-ditch escape (or human enemies) and of course melee weapons. My two favorites; machete and brush axe. The brush axe is unweildy if you've never used one before but I have and it would be perfect to split the head of a slow moving lone zombie without risk of contamination. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
Large swarms would need to be planned for. You just need a vantage point (the roof), provisions, and enough ammo (several hundred .22 rounds can easily be carried in a small pack) and you could clear a whole hoard of zombies one-by-one. | ||
| Stirz007 |
I like the 12ga, too - but 00 isn't exactly cheap at a buck a round. And they make a hell of a racket, so you'd be sure to attract even more (remember; avoidance is the best strategy) | ||
| Macbuell |
What about 9MM? There would be a ton of it available due to its popularity, it's cheao, and it has much better penetration and stopping power than a .22. And you could use it both in a Carbine such as a Bushmaster 9MM or a Baretta CX4 Storm 9MM and also use it in your sidearm. To me, one Caliber that you can use in multiple weapons makes a lot of sense in a Doomsday, Zombie, scenario. (Message edited by macbuell on May 04, 2012) | ||
| Drkside79 |
A .22 will go through a head. It doesn't come out but it will penetrate. Sniper teams use them for urban combat as they are accurate and quite and i believe Seals used or use a .22 suppressed Rueger at times. I doubt either of them would have been used if they bounced of skulls. I mean come on its a piece of metal moving at over 1000 ft per second.... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
This is so silly but I have to chime in on a couple things. "My Blue Heaven" with Steve Martin had the line about the .22 going in and bouncing around "like Pac-Man". Also, Judging just by the behavior of the zombies I have seen on TV and movies, I would have to suggest that the hind brain is pretty much the only thing really doing much. So perhaps a forehead shot would not shut it down. Really, the thing to do is to set traps. They are dumb, akward, and slow. A simple series of pit traps would be more effective than any gun. That way, you can get some sleep instead of sitting up on a rooftop all night. | ||
| Aesquire |
The Israeli's have a very "cute" use for the .22, they use silenced ones to shoot at the crotch of the leaders of stone throwing mobs. RN not HP. It is a very effective discouragement tool. ( honestly, when that starts happening, are YOU running out to lead the mob? ) Doesn't kill, certainly hurts. A bit about ethics. Zombie movies & games are fun, in part, because the ethics is usually clear and easy. Overwhelming odds, and no guilt... until you have the loved one bit and must decide to decapitate to save the party. Seems to me the common pattern is to hold off until "the change" and another in the party is infected.... I don't ever recall some movie where the hero immediately shoots the girl friend..... But there is room for high irony... There you are, you've just slaughtered every undead in town... and the trucks from the CDC arrive announcing a cure... ( this would be my luck. ) Don't forget, it might not BE the Zombie Apocalypse. It might be a ( fill in the blank ) political rally. They can be hard to tell apart. Of course, I have to give props the the best zombie movie ever.... "Ahh! Zombies". Trailer. Warning spoiler alert! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtV3N9zRrJs | ||
| Just_ziptab |
No sense taking any chances........I prefer to go big if it's about zombies.....   | ||
| Torquehd |
if you're planning on using 22LR for zombies, make sure you have a (probably illegal) fully automatic version... or two, or three. in my experience rimfire likes to misfire. and the head is a small target to hit. it's MUCH easier to hit center-mass on a silhouette than a headshot. 22lr also has a hard time breaking through the skull. i watched a hog soak up 3 22lr's to the dome, point blank, before it finally broke through. as for noise, a gun is a gun. unless you've got a silencer, it's not going to be quiet. you really want large caliber, as pain is presumed to be ineffective to zombies. it has to be an incapacitating blow. Simply punching a hole and waiting for them to bleed out is not what you're going for. you want to tear so much material from their carcass that they no longer have the structures necessary to function. I think a 30 cal would be the SMALLEST option for "zombie" applications. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'd argue against the full auto option, for the most part. First, it requires Federal permits and much money. Second, train as you mean to go on. Passing up the illegal issue of converting a semi to a full auto after the End Times Come, you are going to have to practice to achieve proficiency. Your "hit ratio" in gaming terms. The low cost of .22 means you can practice more and have better speed and accuracy. Besides, any Halo fan is going to have a fire rate close enough to full auto with a Ruger 10/22 ( which I will assume as a baseline .22 ) to demolish anything anyway. You could argue that the requirements for Zombie Defense logically should be the same as for any deer size critter. In which case, bigger is better, but you can go too far. It's hard to run with a Ma-duece. ( but it's perfect for vehicles or defensive positions ) With the .22LR as the bottom end and the .30-06, a hundred and six year old main battle rifle round, at the top end for normal recoil and ammo weight tolerance. YMMV and don't bother bragging about your recoil resistance... actually please go ahead and describe your experience with .338 Lapua's on up.  The 12ga. shotgun has it's fans ( with a few gun geeks liking the 20 for it's lighter mass and power level ) and it's darn hard to argue with it's range of ammo selection and sheer power. Reloading is slow, however, and ammo is heavy & large. I think it's a balancing act you have to make among the options. Don't forget the edged weapons! Beheading tools don't run out of ammo, you just get tired. From Samurai Swords to Tomahawk, a portable multifunction tool is a must! | ||
| Thumper74 |
28 Days Later, a character gets blood spatter on him and another character immediately tears into him with a machete. The federal fees for full auto isn't bad, getting a full auto gun is expensive! Talk to anyone in the military, full auto is pretty much never used unless it's suppressive fire. I've fired a full auto M16 and accuracy was crap. It went diagonally up a hillside... I could see a three round burst in a MP15-22 with a 100 round drum magazine being effective. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Want: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gatling-Gun-Kit/741 483.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fse arch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch% 3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dgatling%26x%3D0 %26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProduct s&Ntt=gatling&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products | ||
| Mnrider |
 I'm a big fan of the 22LR. You can fire round after round into the same hole at 50 yards and do some Zombie killing madness.  | ||
| Stirz007 |
"... actually please go ahead and describe your experience with .338 Lapua's on up." The Lapua really isn't too bad - you gotta have a muzzle brake, though. If I run 50 rounds through, shoulder's fine the next day. I have a 7mm mag (Rem. Sendero), and even with the heavy barrel, I'm going to feel 50 rounds through that one the next day. And if you're going for a shotgun, my vote is the AA-12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8 (The moat or pit trap is a good idea, but not easily constructed in a hurry)  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Shot gun, Mossy AA 12 Steet Sweeper Saiga Kel Tech SBS no substitute for slugs, you are killing zombies or the transport they 'arrived' in. Long distance, solutions are much better .308 / 7.62 - but if they are close - the get the slug. No trigger time yet on the Kel Tech but it is next for the collection | ||
| Aesquire |
The Kel Tec KSG? I Must try one sometime. The AA-12 is the nigh perfect Zombie tool. What's not to like? Don't discount the classics, though. A Winchester SuperX, Browning, etc. Semi can often be equipped with extended mag tubes. Mack's Prairie Wings has them, I suppose for folk doing South American dove hunts, ( No limit high speed shooting on dense flocks. Doves, ducks etc. Both for agricultural protection and protein ) where you get waves and often have a loader/guide. While Pumps have an edge in reliability, I argue that a Semi is actually less likely to jam under stress conditions where people short stroke. A century of refinement really makes a difference, and that's how long our weapon smiths have been working the problem.... You have to clean a more complex machine more often, I admit, and there are other advantages to a manual weapon, such as load variation. A very light load may not work a Semi reliably ( depending on design ) but be desirable, say, a low recoil buck and ball load. Trade offs. A note on .22's. Find the load that works best, most reliably, and buy it by the case. | ||
| Thumper74 |
MNRider, I'm picking up my M&P15-22 on Wednesday. I'm sure it will be my most fired gun in short order (cheap and fun). I recently picked up a S&W M3000 pump with a speed feed stock. It's a great gun and very smooth. I'd really like a Saiga 12, but since the ATF have been paying attention to them, they have really gone up in price. I've been really paying attention to the KSG, but it does seem to have some teething issues. Gabe Suarez was really behind it for a while and moved onto the AR12. I've bought a few, large Saiga 12 mags when I could get them cheap at gunshows. For the cash, I'd get the Saiga over the KSG since it's the same functionally as my AK and I already have most of the parts for 922r compliance. Can the AA12 be bought by us mere mortals or is it the Glock 18 of the shotgun world? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I also have a MP 15-22, love it! | ||
| Crackhead |
You guys are really not thinking ahead. My buddies and I have planed out the zombie invasion. Step 1, make it out to his uncles farm with all of your guns. Step 2, clear cut a sight line for 2 miles from the top of the house and barn. Step 3, 24/7 guard with the bolt action 50cal Yes we have night vision goggles. | ||
| Gunut75 |
I have a Ruger 10/22 that sports a Hogue overmolded stock, 16.5" bull barrel, and full trigger job. Topped off with a 4x fixed power Leupold. With Velocitor ammo, I can do 5 shot groups in a dime at 100 yards. Certainly my favorite. Reasonably cheap to shoot. Take out the nice ammo, and it'll give 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards. Ammo quality is everything if yer gonna be accurate with a 22lr. | ||
| Mnrider |
Thump you're going to love the 15-22. I put a Tru-glow scope on it since that pic was taken. CCI tactical 40 grain has been flawless in it. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
What about 9MM? There would be a ton of it available due to its popularity, it's cheao, and it has much better penetration and stopping power than a .22. And you could use it both in a Carbine such as a Bushmaster 9MM or a Baretta CX4 Storm 9MM and also use it in your sidearm. Bingo... This would be my preference. A nicely equipped 9mm carbine with a 50 rd magazine, and about 4 strategically placed 9mm handguns (with about 17 rounds in each). Plus, a standard front pants pocket will store about 150 rd's fairly easily; cargo pockets will hold 300 rounds each. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I'm picking it up on the way to work tomorrow. I found a used one at a gun shop, barely used REALLY cheap with extras. I'm eager to shoot it this weekend. | ||
| Tom_b |
a recent epsiode of "sons of guns" did a build up and compared it to a modified AR-15. the .22 was based on a ruger 10/22. did very well and actually won the competition. also in an apocalypse. ammo may be a bitch to score. .22 ammo is EVERYWHERE in the US anyways. i have even seen t for sale in convenince stores | ||
| Thumper74 |
Tom, I saw that one. It prompted me to reread WWZ and this post... The .223/5.56 and 22 would probably be among the most likely ammo to scavenge since .22 is by far the easiest to find, even in election years. The .223/5.56 is the most common in police issue ARs and the military. So those would be the two to stock up on. MNRider, I was looking at the Truglow halo sights on Optics Planet. I've got one of the normal 3x9 scopes on my 870 slug gun and another one my Marlin, good scopes for the money. Is your's the red dot or holographic sight? | ||
| Gunut75 |
I also have one of the old Mossberg .22 bolt action that was used to train some of you that are slightly older than me in Cub Scouts. It still has the micrometer sights on it. It's big and heavy. A full size rifle that goes *pop*. Ridiculous amounts of fun. Dumfoundingly accurate to 150 yards with it's 28 inch barrel.  | ||
| Mnrider |
Thump it's the 4x32 tactical with the external adjustments. I needed at least 4 pwr cause my eyes aren't as good as they used to be. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I picked it up this morning on the way to work. My eyeballs are working okay, so the halo sights will be it. I'm going to the range on Sunday, so we'll see. |
