| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
My experience has been that there is a lot more racism and just plain old exclusion than white folks think. And there is a lot less than black folks think. It is something that we, each and everyone of us, needs to talks about with each other. Talk to your black friends, ask them questions about racial issues, do the same with your white friends. Heck chat up strangers if the situation is comfortable. Stuck in a long line at the bank next to someone of a different color talk to them; not in any deep way just a casual conversation. The racial divide in this country is huge, way better and way smaller than in 1960 but we ned to keep working to make it better. WE need to do it; take it out of the hands of rabble rousers and professional dividers of all colors and the world will be better. | ||
| Blake |
I think that Morgan Freeman has it right. Stop labeling according to superficial physical appearance. If you see bigotry, call it out and belittle it, never let it pass unchallenged. Make it clear that you cannot associate with such miserableness. Opposing the failed welfare/entitlement society foisted upon so many by misguided politicians would be helpful too; it's enslaved far to many. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Blake that is seriously one of my favorite clips ever. I love it. I was in the gym yesterday and HLN was on, I was on the bike for an hour........at LEAST 30 minutes of that was Martin/Zimmerman related. 30 minutes out of an hour, including commercials. They kept hyping 'breaking news!' yet there was nothing but clips of Nancy Grace (ugh) talking with the Martin family. Damn media | ||
| Sifo |
My experience has been that there is a lot more racism and just plain old exclusion than white folks think. And there is a lot less than black folks think. It is something that we, each and everyone of us, needs to talks about with each other. Talk to your black friends, ask them questions about racial issues, do the same with your white friends. Heck chat up strangers if the situation is comfortable. Stuck in a long line at the bank next to someone of a different color talk to them; not in any deep way just a casual conversation. There's no doubt that racism isn't gone. I don't know that it ever will be. I'm not so sure about the ability to talk about it rationally between the races though. The idea that a white person will never understand because they aren't black makes it a non-starter. The other idea that a black by definition can't be racist is a non-starter too. As long as those ideas are prevalent rational discussion just can't happen. On the other end of the spectrum we still have white supremest groups. From my perspective though the blacks seem to have more folk on the extreme of the issue though. Seeing the dog and pony show surrounding the Trayvon Martin case reinforces that opinion for me as does a comment by one of out BadWeb members who recently stated that it's always about race. I would love to be able to have a rational discussion with blacks. It's hard enough to have a discussion across the political divide however. Years ago I became good friends with someone at work who I really wanted to discuss this with, but just didn't want to ruin that friendship. Despite both him and his wife making good money in the IT industry, they chose to live in the slums of Chicago's south side. It was a daily battle to keep their two boys away from gang members in the neighborhood. They did own a very nice condo, but as soon as you walked out the door you were in a slum world where trash was literally piled on the sidewalks. If I was at his place after dark he would literally insist on escorting me out to my car. No, I don't understand willingly raising a family in that sort of neighborhood. Is it because I'm white that I can't understand? I really don't know. I never could ask about it though. One thing I will say though is that when events such as the current unrest over the Trayvon Martin case happens, it does not bring the extremists closer together. Quite to the contrary, it pushes people out to the extremes. I know that my perception of the world around me has changed with comments like "it's always about race" and seeing how that's true in the Martin case. I'm beginning to make the assumption that when a black looks at me, it is done through a racist prism. I don't think that I'm the only one either. That sort of thinking certainly isn't helpful, but it's where we are at. Where some see the US as a country that enslaved a portion of their people, I see the US as a country that inherited slavery at it's birth and fought a very bitter war to eradicate slavery within a few generations from the start of the country. It would have been great if the table could have just been reset with the writing of the Constitution, but societies just don't change that quickly and I don't think our country would ever have gotten out of the starting gate with those sweeping changes. The founders did put together a document that lays the foundation for all men to be treated equal however. We would be better off learning to follow the Constitution more closely. Oddly those who complain the most about unfairness are those who also treat the Constitution as an outdated document. No, I really don't understand. | ||
| Davegess |
I find little trouble talking with my friends about it. It is not a discussion with "blacks" it is a discussion with friends. The divide on this case is very much along racial lines. All black folks I know have had cops and other hassle them just because they are black so they pretty much see this as the kid only got hassled because of his race. If it had been a white kid the story would not have even have started. I gotta agree with that. I feel sorry for Zimmerman, he is gonna have to live with killing an innocent person for the rest of his live. All he had to do was follow the dispatchers advise and bingo nobody gets shot, nobody gets arrested, nobody gets hurt. I suspect he gets off of this, the law seems pretty clear and several pretty bad characters have already gotten away with murder, literally, under it so I suspect he is not gonna have too much trouble. | ||
| Sifo |
All he had to do was follow the dispatchers advise and bingo nobody gets shot, nobody gets arrested, nobody gets hurt. Have you listened to the 911 tape? That's EXACTLY what he did. Clearly people have to dig deeper than the media spoon fed push an agenda stories. | ||
| 2734 |
"From vast first hand experience, I happen to know the exact opposite. " You lack of touch with reality is astonishing. What's worse is my post contained the same things you posted about agreeing with Morgan Freeman about. (Message edited by 273-4 on April 14, 2012) | ||
| Daves |
"I feel sorry for Zimmerman, he is gonna have to live with killing an innocent person for the rest of his live." At this point, we do not know that anyone was innocent, or guilty or who was. Looks like plenty of people have already determined which is which? Not sure how they did that? | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks Daves. You are on the money. | ||
| Sifo |
Sorry, but I really disagree with Daves. A lot of evidence is in public record that exonerates Zimmerman's actions. The 911 tape is a big one that destroys the storyline that Zimmerman kept going after Martin. Then there's Zimmerman's injuries which also back his story. Then there's witness testimony that mesh with the tape and Zimmerman's story. All of this conflicts with the story that is required to prosecute him, that he pursued Martin until he caught him and shot him as a result. OTOH, the entire case against Zimmerman is based on theories that just don't have any physical evidence that we know of. If such evidence existed, it should be public knowledge as of the indictment. Nothing new came from the indictment that was filed however. There is not only not enough to support guilt beyond reasonable doubt, but the preponderance of the evidence is in Zimmerman's favor. The big hope for the prosecution will IMO be in somehow finding a way to keep the 911 tape out of evidence. I don't see that happening, but court is always a crap shoot. | ||
| Cowboy |
The mastake mr. Z made was leting him get so close the rule here is if you tell a man to stop and he keeps comeing you have the right to go ahead and kill him on the spot any thing under 21 ft. is legal. | ||
| Blake |
DaveG, You've been misled Oma number of counts.. Punching a man in the face then jumping on top of him and bashing his head into a sidewalk is anything but innocent. Nor did Zimmerman ignore the 911 operator, nor did the 911 operator instruct Zimmerman to cease following Martin. The 911 operator merely stated that "we don't need you to do that" after asking Zimmerman if he was still following Martin and Zimmerman answered in the affirmative. According to the 911 call, it seems obvious that Zimmerman did cease following Martin at that point. | ||
| Davegess |
I am not saying the marvin is innocent of an attack, just that he had done nothing wrong up to that point and Zimmerman is going to have to live with it for the rest of his life. I don't think that will be an easy thing to do. It is tough fro cops and soldiers to kill people and they are trained and have a support system he does not. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dang Dave, best post ***ever***. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just took my CCW class yesterday... lots of good information, and the instructor wisely stayed the hell away from this case. It was a mixed race class, and we all had a great time together. I handed my loaded gun to several "strangers", some black, some white, some male and some female. I enjoyed the class and the people. There was one "forehead slap" moment of discovering the obvious though... that is relevant to this case. We suckered the instructor into going off book for a bit, and he shared some personal stories (that I will leave personal). But they lead to a REALLY obvious answer that I don't know why I never thought of before... Whenever we asked a question about an awkward grey middle ground situation in employing deadly force, there was (contrary to what I previously believed) a pretty easy answer. Pepper spray them. It is a fight stopper, and whoever you hit will *wish* they were dead for half an hour, but after that, they will be alive to try and press assault charges. In this case, I sure wish Zimmerman had a can of really good pepper spray instead (or in addition) to his 9mm. Even if he was completely wrong and completely out of line, he would be looking at assault charges now, not 2nd degree murder. I haven't decided when and where I will actually carry a handgun. But I am going to experiment with starting to carry pepper spray. | ||
| Davegess |
The last self defense class it took, a long time ago involving a mix of the martial arts but no weapons, the absolute first line of defense in a situation you felt uncomfortable was to leave as quickly as you could. Using your skills or weapons to harm or kill someone was the very last choice. | ||
| Garryb |
Davegess ++1 or +3 Which ever is higher | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I am not sure if I would be able to run or not use my weapon if someone broke my nose and knocked me on the ground... and then instead of them walking away, they start pounding my head into the concrete. I would probably use my gun too. ASAP. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
If an unarmed 17 year old kicked my butt, I feel that I probably deserved it. I was taught many years ago that if I'm out looking for trouble, I have an excellent chance of finding it! | ||
| Gregtonn |
"If an unarmed 17 year old kicked my butt, I feel that I probably deserved it." If you think that you probably did. At 17 I was a pretty fair wrestler and was able to take down people who outweighed me by over 60 pounds. Mostly it was not in anger but in one case it was the town "bad ass". He was trying to pick a fight with a cousin of mine but then decided he would try me since I was a stranger in town. He was ten years older than me and outweighed me by at least 50 pounds. I hurt him bad and it scared me. I couldn't believe I had done that. After that I vowed to talk myself out of any fight I could. G | ||
| Cowboy |
It all depemds--At 75 I will not atempt combat with any one I will go for the 40 cal. as quick as possible. | ||
| Sifo |
I was taught many years ago that if I'm out looking for trouble, I have an excellent chance of finding it! I just wonder... How many people go "looking for trouble", and call 911 to report suspicious behavior just before finding that trouble? Does it make sense to call 911 if you are looking for an opportunity to shoot and unarmed person? | ||
| Aesquire |
Some of the hoo-rah is not at all relevant to what happened, at the time. 17 years old. It makes a difference if we were charging the dead guy. It makes a difference if you are selling beer to the dead guy. It makes no damn difference at all when the dead guy is pounding your head on the ground. I doubt Id's were exchanged. What SEEMS to be the known facts. ( not speculation about stuff some talk show cretin told you ) It seems ( seems. ) to be established that one guy was, at one point, committing battery, possibly attempted murder, on the other guy. It would be really obvious, from physical evidence ( you know, the real thing, not what NBC "reports" ) if one guy had been beat on and the other not. The range of the shoot should be fairly obvious. ( sounds like a contact shoot, but I don't KNOW, not having access to the evidence ) So the only thing that we don't have a pretty good idea what actually happened, is the short time gap between 911 calls? We don't know if one guy harrasses the other guy, we don't know what words, if any were exchanged, we don't know, and NEVER WILL, what the dead guy was thinking. We don't know who initiated physical violence. The one who threw the first punch is to blame. IF the guy still alive did something wrong, we don't know that either, but there is a chance that the truth will come out in court. We certainly won't get the truth from the "news" companies, that are shills for one political party. We won't get anything but self serving BS from people trying to exploit this case. and we can blame, not Zimmerman, Not Martin, but the race pimps and the news guys for every death and injury that results from their lies and exploitation. AND we know they won't take any blame, or responsibility, for their actions in this case, and I don't know a thing I can do about it other than boycott NBC, etc. Am I wrong here in any particular? and, again, did any of the jerks running for office exploit or say something stupid about this case? Please post a link. I want to vote against them. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Today, in the gym again, HLN was on - they had a five minute montage of how 'Trayvon affects the nation" Included in this montage were people chanting "I AM TRAYVON, I AM TRAYVON!"......uhhhh no, no youre not. He's dead. You didnt know him. YOu didnt care about him. Quit fronting now like you did/do. The other thing was that they started showing celebrities speaking about the event. A) Why do we care what Majic Johnson (for example) thinks of this ?He wasnt there. He's not an expert. But, hey I get it, everyone has an opinion. B) Is there any particular reason why they only interviewed male African Ameicans for this (or showed the clips of)? I would think by "nation" it would be a mix of people, not just black males including, but not limited to, Bill Cosby, Magic Johnson, and Tyrese. It does disgust me that they (media and idiots) make this racial. I will say that it was nice that the two pictures that they showed of the men involved (one of Zimmerman, one of Martin) were of them smiling, looking happy and respectible. Not the pictures first shown constantly (young Martin and arrested Zimmerman). I dont care about the case (do not know or care about either of the men, it really does not affect my life one bit), But it does interest me how people react to it. | ||
| Sifo |
I think it's safe at this point to say that Zimmerman did in fact take a beating that night.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FvFNUcklV | ||
| Drkside79 |
See finally things that are credible. Things like this at the onset would have stopped a lot of the BS associated with the case. | ||
| Sifo |
See finally things that are credible. Why was his story not "credible" before? His story has always been consistent with verifiable facts. As more and more verifiable facts come forward the continue to back his story. If you found his story to not be credible, I think that says something about you, not Zimmerman or his accounting of what happened. | ||
| Reepicheep |
In fairness to people just now getting "the rest of the story", if you were only watching the event unfold on CBS/NBC/ABC/CNN/AP, you would have gotten a very skewed version of the truth. The facts were there also, but you had to dig REALLY deep to find them. | ||
| Sifo |
In fairness to people just now getting "the rest of the story", if you were only watching the event unfold on CBS/NBC/ABC/CNN/AP, you would have gotten a very skewed version of the truth. The facts were there also, but you had to dig REALLY deep to find them. Doesn't say much for the MSM either. The verifiable facts have been laid out in this thread MANY times. Those verifiable facts back Zimmerman's story. To believe otherwise requires suspension of reality. I can't believe how many times I've heard some dimwit on the news saying how Zimmerman disobeyed the police when he was told they didn't need him to peruse Martin. Did they even listen to the tape? Do they care at all about truth? | ||
| Drkside79 |
>>>>>>If you found his story to not be credible, I think that says something about you, not Zimmerman or his accounting of what happened. Sorry Sifo I guess you are just so much more level headed and fair than the rest of us and from now on we will all bow to your vastly superior mind......  |
