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Buellathebuzzer
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 06:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

In the middle of Mark's telling of the passion of Christ is written the following:

Mark 14:51-52
And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him: And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

Discuss.
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Mr_grumpy
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 08:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The Book of Discovery.

4C.4 11,

Check that the accelerator lever moves to the full-throttle position when the accelerator pedal is fully depressed.




A creed to live by I think.}
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Drkside79
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Streaker?
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Blake
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What's to discuss? A man had his clothing torn off escaping from the grasp of a hostile crowd.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 14

http://bible.cc/mark/14-51.htm

More in depth discussion from 2nd link above...

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

A certain young man - Who this was we have no means of determining, but it seems not improbable that he may have been the owner of the garden, and that he may have had an understanding with Jesus that he should visit it for retirement when he withdrew from the city. That he was not one of the apostles is clear. It is probable that be was roused from sleep by the noise made by the rabble, and came to render any aid in his power in quelling the disturbance. It is not known why this circumstance is recorded by Mark. It is omitted by all the other evangelists. It may have been recorded to show that the conspirators had instructions to take the "apostles" as well as Jesus, and supposing him to be one of them, they laid hold of him to take him before the high priest; or it "may" have been recorded in order to place his conduct in strong and honorable contrast with the timidity and fear of the disciples, who had all fled. Compare the notes at Matthew 26:56.

A linen cloth cast about his naked body - He was roused from sleep, and probably threw around him, in his haste, what was most convenient. It was common to sleep in linen bed-clothes, and he seized a part of the clothes and hastily threw it round him.

The young men - The Roman soldiers. They were called "young men" because they were made up chiefly of youth. This was a Jewish mode of speaking. See Genesis 14:24; 2 Samuel 2:14; Isaiah 13:18.

Laid hold on him - Supposing him to be one of the apostles.




Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

A certain young man - Probably raised from his sleep by the noise which the rabble made who came to apprehend Jesus, having wrapped the sheet or some of the bed-clothing about him, became thereby the more conspicuous: on his appearing, he was seized; but as they had no way of holding him, but only by the cloth which was wrapped round him, he disengaged himself from that, and so escaped out of their hands. This circumstance is not related by any other of the evangelists.




Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And there followed him a certain young man,.... Some think this was John, the beloved disciple, and the youngest of the disciples; others, that it was James, the brother of our Lord; but he does not seem to be any of the disciples of Christ, since he is manifestly distinguished from them, who all forsook him and fled: some have thought, that he was a young man of the house, where Christ and his disciples ate their passover; who had followed him to the garden, and still followed him, to see what would be the issue of things: but it seems most likely, that he was one that lived in an house in Gethsemane, or in or near the garden; who being awaked out of sleep with the noise of a band of soldiers, and others with them, leaped out of bed, and ran out in his shirt, and followed after them, to know what was the matter:

having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; which was either his shirt in which he lay, or one of the sheets, which he took and wrapped himself in, not staying to put on his clothes: though the word "Sindon", is used both by the Targumists (d) and Talmudists (e) for a linen garment; and sometimes even for the outer garment, to which the fringes were fastened (f); and he might take up this in haste, and slip it on, without putting on any inner garment: the word "body", is not in the text, and the phrase , may be rendered, "upon his nakedness"; and answers to in Genesis 9:23 and Leviticus 20:11, and the meaning be, he had only a piece of linen wrapped about his middle, to cover his nakedness; and in this garb ran out, to see what was doing:

and the young men laid hold on him. The Roman soldiers, who were commonly so called: so David's soldiers are called "young men", that were with him, 1 Samuel 21:4; these attempted to lay hold on this young man, taking him to be a disciple of Christ, or one at least affected to him, and did take hold of his linen cloth. The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions, leave out the words, "the young men". The design of Mark in relating this incident, is to show the rage and fury of these men; who were for sparing none that appeared to be or were thought to be the followers of Christ; so that the preservation of the disciples was entirely owing to the wonderful power of Christ.

(d) Targum in Psal civ. 2. & Lam ii. 20. (e) T. Bab. Menachot, fol. 41. 1.((f) Ib. fol 40. 1.




Vincent's Word Studies

Linen cloth

The probable derivation is from an Indian: India being the source from which came this fine fabric used for wrapping dead bodies, and in which Christ's body was enveloped. See Matthew 27:59; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:53.




Geneva Study Bible

{13} And there followed him a certain young man, having a {m} linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:

(13) Under a pretence of godliness, all things are lawful to those who do violence against Christ.

(m) Which he cast about him, and ran forth after he heard the commotion in the night: by this we may understand with how great licentiousness these villains violently set upon him.




People's New Testament

14:51,52 And there followed him, etc. Verses 51 and 52 are peculiar to Mark.

A certain young man. Some have supposed him to be Mark. This is only conjecture. The incident may have been introduced to show the rudeness of the assailants and to emphasize the escape of all the disciples from so wanton an attack.

A linen cloth. A night robe.




Wesley's Notes

14:51 A young man - It does not appear, that he was one of Christ's disciples. Probably hearing an unusual noise, he started up out of his bed, not far from the garden, and ran out with only the sheet about him, to see what was the matter. And the young men laid hold on him - Who was only suspected to be Christ's disciple: but could not touch them who really were so.




Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

14:43-52 Because Christ appeared not as a temporal prince, but preached repentance, reformation, and a holy life, and directed men's thoughts, and affections, and aims to another world, therefore the Jewish rulers sought to destroy him. Peter wounded one of the band. It is easier to fight for Christ than to die for him. But there is a great difference between faulty disciples and hypocrites. The latter rashly and without thought call Christ Master, and express great affection for him, yet betray him to his enemies. Thus they hasten their own destruction.
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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think the young men "knew" him...

Genesis 19:5
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If that is what you think, then you either cannot read very well, or have allowed fantasy to over-rule reason.
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Wolfridgerider
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What I think... some threads are started with one purpose in mind.....
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Mr_grumpy
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Zigactly!!
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Alchemy
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For those not solely inclined to literalism, it might be considered that the youth is a reference in a broad way to humanity (or perhaps the Church) in the early halting innocent steps of following the Christ life example. Humanity has yet to bear the full armor of Christian faith. The youth is garbed in linen. He is following but can easily be dissuaded to flee at this point.
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Mr_grumpy
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well to answer the original point, what was the weather like that day? was it hot? was it snowing?

Was the young man in the habit of wandering about draped only in a piece of linen?

Had he been drinking?

Banging a spliff?

Was he wanted for something entirely unrelated & did a runner when they tried to grab him?

Who knows? who can ever know? does it really matter?

I'll now stop feeding the troll.
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Drkside79
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Who knows? who can ever know? does it really matter?

nobody alive, nobody for sure, NO
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Gschuette
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think that basing ones life upon the interpretation of naked boys running from crowds or other crowds wanting to "know" other men is futile. And at 10% is quite the racket.
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Buellathebuzzer
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Alchemy is getting at the kind of discussion my mind went to. It's a peculiar pair of verses. If you read it as allegory, then there should be some symbolism here and I certainly Alchemy is getting at an interesting idea. The linen cloth is similar to what Jesus body is wrapped before it's laid in the crypt.

If you read it literally, then, yeah, it's a weird event, but hardly note worthy given the events unfolding in the story. So, if it's literal, why include such a non sequitur in the story when it is so distracting?

Drkside: Because I'm curious about what other people think.
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Mr_grumpy
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 02:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The linen cloth is similar to what Jesus body is wrapped before it's laid in the crypt.

That's like saying my rain suit is similar to a body-bag, yes they're made from the same materials.


I have a wooden row-boat too, I'd be happy to sell it to you as a direct descendant of Noahs Ark.

Some links are just too tenuous to hold.
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Alchemy
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Keying off the linen comments... There seems to be mention of garb at interesting times in the Bible. It could be an artifact of the time and culture but our garb is one of our most individual decisions and it is closest to our physical body. The wearing of clothing is uniquely human and nearly universal. Clothing can be rich in metaphor and used in literature to build imagery efficiently.

In this case there is no mention of a belt. It specifically (in this translation) uses the phrase "cast about" rather than belted. This seems to be the minimal garment almost a return to the nakedness of the first Adam in the garden of Eden story.

As I have been contemplating this I come to the possibility that this is another event that precedes the events on Golgatha suggesting what is to come.
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mark,

Biblical exegesis is interesting. Opinions of folks unfamiliar with the historical discipline or the historical text and its context are worth little. Did you not read the scholarly commentaries I quoted? They include a number of plausible explanations as to why that bit of information was included by Mark in his description of the event.

Bottom line, it isn't important to the overall narrative.

Folks like GSchuette are misled if they imagine that Christians hold their faith based on such stand-alone scriptural details. The opposite is true. Thus his statement that "basing one's life upon the interpretation of naked boys running from crowds or other crowds wanting to "know" other men is futile" is one with which Christians absolutely agree.

When it comes down to it, there really are just a handful of facts from the gospels that are vital to Christianity.

1. Jesus was who he claimed, and he performed miracles and deeds fulfilling scripture concerning the messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

2. Jesus was tortured and crucified to death under Roman direction at the behest of Temple authorities.

3. His dead body was laid to rest in a tomb.

4. His tomb was later found empty.

5. Jesus was then seen alive by many; he was resurrected.

For a more complete statement of vital core Christian belief, see the Nicene creed.


quote:

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

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Moxnix
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just checking my somewhat dog eared operating manual for life on Earth, finding:

1 Cor. 3:18-19
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”

Go ahead, call me a fool.

As for the passage from Mark, it's obvious to those that know, but not to those who are not interested in knowing.
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Gschuette
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let's relate this to Buells.

No Erik you are a fool to think you are wise. Don't ask why the muffler hangs off the back. Don't ask why braking forces from near the rim have to go back to the hub and back to the rim. Don't ask why the gas is suspended high above the center of gravity.

I for one am glad he asked questions and sought answers, as my Buell is much more fun to ride than my brothers old CB360.
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Mr_grumpy
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2012 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As for the passage from Mark, it's obvious to those that know, but not to those who are not interested in knowing.


Shhh, you're not supposed to tell anybody. You'll have Dan Brown writing a book about it next.
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2012 - 08:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greg,

It seems to me that asking questions is the opposite of arrogance (seeming to be wise). Challenging conventional wisdom is indeed often viewed as foolishness. How many times have we seen out of the box ideas ridiculed purely for being different? Too many times. Kinda off track though as motorcycles are purely worldly things, so I don't think it makes sense to try to relate them to that advice from Paul.
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Alchemy
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2012 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One could think of the linen as the physical husk we know as Jesus who has united with the Christ spirit (the youth) at baptism and has since been following/united with the will of the Father God who sent him. Here the attacks of humanity again separates the the Spirit from the physical. The youth (Christ spirit) flees leaving the linen (the body) behind.

Later in this Gospel is the cry from the cross where the spirit seems to have forsaken Jesus. This almost seems to be a separate telling of the same story.
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Robmahoney
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

lighten up, Francis
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