| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Sifo, that was the acount that you were re-telling. Where did you hear it? According to your first link, the story I'm familiar with is what he told police. It's the story in your third link that is a different story and not attributed to a source. So despite Blakes comment I still want to know wheres the damn blood. Where do get the info that there was no blood? | ||
| Sifo |
Tankhead, You personally heard this lawyer say that Martin called 911? If that lawyer said that it's a clear sign of throwing crap out to the media when the facts are stacked against you. At this point I have no idea if he said that or not. It certainly goes against the idea that he was talking to his GF. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
Sorry Sifo, it was someone else that mentioned Zimmerman getting jumped from behind. I didn't catch that until after I posted. | ||
| Drkside79 |
>>>>Where do get the info that there was no blood? I dont and That's my point to some extent. Everything we are all doing is speculation. However it would be nice if the press who say him would say hey the guy was covered in blood or hey he had visible injuries. or anything that wasn't biased BS one way or the other. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Depends on what you mean by "thug". If you mean young and black and wearing a hoodie, then you are an ignorant racist. Even if you intend "thug" to mean "someone who is actively attempting to murder someone else", it still matters. Rule of law and due process are critically important. And neither has yet run it's course. Regardless of what you meant, you should be more precise and thoughtful in how you say it, or risk of being banned from this site. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Oh and i don't see dark stains on his shirt in the video. If he was beaten and shot a man point blank i would assume there would be something visible. | ||
| Blake |
Andy, Example if i was on top of you banging your head off the ground how could you pull a gun and shoot it without being in extremely close proximity? I don't think you could. We agree on the close proximity if the shot was fired while Martin was atop Zimmerman. We don't know that was the case. Now the bullet leaves your gun travels maybe six inches and enters me. At that range typically gas projecting the bullet enters my body. It experiences resistance as the wound reflexes shut behind the bullet and escapes towards the path of least resistance which is back the way it came causing blowback. This is especially true if the gun was touching me. Yet Martin was wearing at least one garment. Might a garment or garments prevent the blood spatter/blowback you describe? Trajectory is of no consequence? Could not any blowback that managed to escape the garment covering Martin's body have ejected in a direction and/or velocity such that it did not significantly impinge upon Zimmerman? Could it not have flown right over him and landed on the ground behind his head, he with back on ground, Martin possible sitting upright astride him? However this is theory. or as you call it making things up. Yes, it absolutely is. Thank you for acknowledging that. It's fun to theorize, but it has zero basis on the actual facts of the case and should never be used to push any certain conclusion. I do enjoy your points. I still say if you are on the ground getting your head beat and you shoot to save your life the guys blood will be on you. But there are a myriad of reasons they that might not be so. Why are you so intent on pushing the idea absent any actual facts? For all you know there is blood all over the grass where it flew over Zimmerman who was lying on his back. Or maybe as mentioned above Martin's garments prevented any significant blowback. As you admit above, your demands to know are mere conjecture. Even if its a perforating gun wound the assailant is on top of you. blood will come down thanks to gravity. Don't you figure that almost concurrent with being shot, Martin would have reacted and tried to escape, perhaps rolling over to the side, or even jumping off of Zimmerman? Good grief. All your analysis and conjecture is focused on impugning Zimmerman. Why is that??? also if it hit his lung he would have it coming out his mouth almost instantaneously. We don't know if the bullet penetrated a lung though do we? And you say "almost instantly", well isn't it reasonable that Martin would almost instantly also remove himself from atop Zimmerman? If I were atop someone and they pulled a gun and shot me, I'd not stay put. keep in mind for Zimmerman to be doing what he said he would be under Treyvon. Keep in mind that you have none of the forensic data from the case and are making huge assumptions about all kinds of things. What caliber was the gun? What type of bullet was employed? What was the exact positioning of Martin relative to Zimmerman when Martin was shot? How much clothing was Martin wearing where the bullet penetrated and how thick was it? You don't know any of those answers. All of those questions and likely many more are germane to the CSI. So despite Blake's comment I still want to know wheres the damn blood. I'd like to know too, but I understand such information is not for public consumption. Rules of criminal investigation must be followed, no matter how badly you feel the need to know. Curtis, >>> Both stories have Martin attacking Zimmerman first but why are they different? None of them are contradictory are they? They simply contain different levels of detail. They are different because different journalists and their editors write differently. If I asked any three folks here to describe an EBR 1190RS, each would likely do so accurately, but with very different content. Fixed the "ABR" typo. Thanks Jumbo!  (Message edited by Blake on March 29, 2012) | ||
| Jumbo_petite |
If I asked any three folks here to describe an ABR 1190RS What's an ABR 1190RS hahahaha!!!!!! Has anyone thought that maybe his clothing was confiscated for evidence, hence no blood on the clothes he was wearing??????? I have no clue at all!! | ||
| Drkside79 |
>>>I'd like to know too, but I understand such information is not for public consumption. Rules of criminal investigation must be followed, no matter how badly you feel the need to know. Agreed. Also I do not know for sure that Zimmeman is guilty. Also I do not know if Treyvon is guilty. The latter however paid with his life. Also its not too hard for me to believe the possibility that its an old boys club coverup. Once again in case i was unclear that doesn't mean i think Zimmerman guily either. All I'm saying is alot does not add up. Also I pray that the Florida PD is doing an extremely thorough investigation. This one really feels like a powder keg waiting to go off. Imagine April 29th 1992 in revisited in every major city. (Message edited by drkside79 on March 29, 2012) | ||
| Blake |
>>> All I'm saying is alot does not add up. Baloney. You pretend to know stuff that you then think doesn't add up. | ||
| Sifo |
>>>>Where do get the info that there was no blood? I dont and That's my point to some extent. Everything we are all doing is speculation. However it would be nice if the press who say him would say hey the guy was covered in blood or hey he had visible injuries. or anything that wasn't biased BS one way or the other. I am not speculating. I'm going off the evidence that is available. We have 1) The PDF of the police report. 2) Zimmerman's statement to the police. 3) At least 2 911 calls that have been made public. 4) Statements from multiple witnesses. 5) News reports of the incident. That provides quite a lot of information where you can compare various versions of what happened and get a good idea of the truth. Questioning "where's the blood" when no information on that detail has been released is ridiculous. Also its not too hard for me to believe the possibility that its an old boys club coverup. What about the witness statements that back up Zimmerman's story. Two witnesses who only heard it happen have their story right in line with Zimmerman's even though they are convinced that Zimmerman killed Martin in cold blood. They just have a different perspective and apparently are not willing to accept all the available information. I would have to ask why this coverup would take place. You are asking us to believe that numerous police officers and some paramedics are involved in a conspiracy to cover up something for a person that they have no connection with. I doubt all these people would be so keen on doing such a thing. It's your speculation though, please do your best to support it. All I'm saying is alot does not add up. What doesn't add up. Listen to the 911 recording then read the accounts by the witnesses. Then compare all of that to the police report. Then add in Zimmerman's statement. All of that creates an amazingly consistent story. It adds up extremely well. Most killings have far less solid information. This one really feels like a powder keg waiting to go off. No doubt about that at all. I question again how the dividing line on this case seems drawn based on political affiliation. I know I'm looking at available evidence. What's the liberal side looking at? Why is BO ginning this up? Oh and i don't see dark stains on his shirt in the video. If he was beaten and shot a man point blank i would assume there would be something visible. You expect to see blood spatter on a red jacket in a poor quality security camera video when it's likely that the close he was wearing was taken as evidence? Seriously? | ||
| Notpurples2 |
Who making things up now? Do you think they had him strip down at the crime scene? Someone had a change of clothes for him on hand? | ||
| Sifo |
He was right near home. It would be the cops call. Even with no change of clothing, looking for blood spatter on a red jacket on a poor quality video... I'm not surprised you can't see any. I wouldn't be able to be certain that he was Zimmerman if he wasn't identified as the person in the video. I have little doubt that the police are on top of what to look for is such a shooting. Do not trust their investigation? If not, why? | ||
| Moxnix |
(Message edited by moxnix on March 29, 2012) | ||
| Aesquire |
Are you guys still arguing about this with limited data? Making stuff up? Theories about stuff you don't have anything but what CNN says to go on? Whatever happened to good old counter-steering arguments? Where all turns are really initiated with the big toe? | ||
| Reindog |
We don't know what happened....yet. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
This will be one of those cases everybody remembers. I did notice from the very beginning, the media never referred to Trayvon as "Student Athlete" or "Honor Student" or cited any Church or Volunteer work as a qualifier that he was a stand up citizen. This led me to suspect there was a lengthy criminal record of violence and larceny that because he was a juvenile would not be available to the public. Lastly, the New York Times referred to Zimmerman as a "White Hispanic" just to keep the race card in play. " First the white Hispanic thing - there are many Hispanic people who look caucasion, so Im not sure what problem you have with this.....though I dont know why race matters. Secondly - the part about how he wasnt a honor student or athlete etc, how does that automatically make him underage with a record? I know several people who've never been in any real trouble (im not counting traffic tickets) that didnt play sports and didnt make straight As......they have no records Your whole post is flawed, but I enjoyed reading it. | ||
| Cowboy |
Hollywood now involved, do they not know that a lot of young people will be thinking it is OK to take this up and if they try this in the wrong place there will be some young people killed. There is a lot of places this crap want work. | ||
| Reepicheep |
One of the reasons Zimmerman originally was concerned about Martin was that Martin was walking around slowly in the rain. So maybe Zimmerman was wearing a rain coat (again, speculative, but reasonable). It's hard for me to believe police and paramedics would just leave Zimmerman covered with somebody elses blood while they treated him and brought him in for questioning. It violates basic medical practices relating to blood borne diseases, and basic evidence handling protocol. The "white hispanic" complaint is one I share, and it is directed squarely at the media. It made it clear they were trying to create a racially divisive story spin. "White Hispanic"? You gotta be kidding me. So is Obama a "White African American"? If he was, they failed to mention that in about 11ty million articles they posted about him. Our point is that "community organizers" and media people are trying to turn this into a race war. And that we think that is racist, divisive, and dangerous. Many of us here find racism (of any color) deeply offensive. If the races were reversed, I would not feel any different about the situation. I would want the shooter to have the protections and due process of the law, without people trying to start riots, taint the jury pool, or turn the case into a trojan horse where the accused is railroaded in order to overturn a law our attorney general passionately wants to see overturned. | ||
| Tankhead |
Notpurple2..... I edited my post but left what I originally posted. I too was disturbed what I heard about the 911 call so I also tried to find it. NOTHING. I think the lawyer was going back and forth bantering about the night and got caught up and misspoke about the girlfriend on the phone. I don't remember him ever saying the girlfriend was on phone with him. Sorry 'bout that. | ||
| Ulyranger |
How is that grainy, poor quality police barracks video evidence of anything but; 1: Zimmerman was taken into custody after the incident. (sorry Oprah) 2: from my observations the police officers were very, very aware of the seriousness of the situation and had every appearance of the professionals I have no doubt they are. As to all the closet CSI techs here, it would seem to be very appropriate to me that any clothing containing blood splatter evidence from multiple subjects be collected at the scene and proper chain of custody be maintained throughout the incident.(anybody remember the reason OJ walked?) Zimmermans truck and home being very near the scene, an ambulance (or multiple likely), many LEOs and investigators and many other contributing factors we are not in possession of the knowledge of....seems the real answers are documented somewhere. I suggest waiting for the "real" evidence and not being lead by the nose with every tidbit media outlet X decides to cast out to the masses. My opinion at this point? The race baiting is lower than disgusting. There were errors in judgment made from both young men involved, unfortunately one paid with his life. FL's "stand your ground law" is good legislation, if Zimmerman acted outside the law's provisions (any law) I have little doubt he will be prosecuted. One month to properly, justly investigate a potential murder/manslaughter/wrongful death case is NOT unreasonable. The parties in this investigation aren't going anywhere, this "need" for instant gratification for perceived "justice" is ridiculous. Discussion is fine, maybe even entertaining and informative, let's stand above the fray though........and let lady justice have her proper due course......... | ||
| Sifo |
Are you guys still arguing about this with limited data? Making stuff up? Theories about stuff you don't have anything but what CNN says to go on? I can't disagree more strongly. This whole thing is a question of did Zimmerman pursue Martin and murder him or did he kill Martin in self defense. The 911 call by Zimmerman alone clearly refutes the idea that he chased him down and murdered him as is being alleged. The police report backs this up. I don't understand how people manage to refuse to see irrefutable evidence that is right in front of them. The 911 call... And the police report. These are pretty solid facts that must be completely ignored to believe that Martin was murdered. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
You can see the video where the officer looks at the back of Zimmermens head... also.. I have seem people get broken nose and not bleed too much. Bleeding stops anyways and you can clean your face off easy enough. Last night I watched Nancy Grace... lol... and she was adamant that Zimmerman must have had blood gushing from his nose... lolol she is a special lady. Of course, as you all know, we have no freakin idea what really happened that night. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Very nice summary Ulyranger! | ||
| Sifo |
As to the whole blood spatter thing... Which is total conjecture on both sides of the issue BTW. I've seen deer shot where blood is everywhere. I've also seen deer shot and dropped where it stands with almost no blood. The real world is often very different from what you see in movies. I do see him in the video wearing a red jacket. Witnesses say that he was wearing a red jacket at the time of the shooting. Does that mean anything? I've got multiple blue jackets. I like blue. A change of cloths would have been minutes away for him at his home that could have been provided by a family member easily if the police wanted to preserve any blood evidence. Of course, all of the above is conjecture. From both sides. I'll assume the police did their job until there is some evidence to the contrary. Some seem to assume a large conspiracy in this. To protect whom, and why I have no idea. Those promoting the conspiracy don't seem to know either. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I wonder what was said in the patrol car on the way to the station? There is a recording for that too so where is it?!?!? | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Geeze man,... the yelling for help was Zimmerman.. not the kid. Seems to be as simple as the kid...walked up onto the wrong person at the wrong time. Bad luck? Destiny? Zimmerman could have stayed in his car, could have not given chase, Trayvon could have NOT run away, could have NOT circled back and confronted his chaser, could have NOT verbally threatened the chaser and also could have NOT punched chaser in the face, also could have NOT slammed chasers' head into pavement. Also, Chaser could have shot him in the leg or arm instead of torso. this kind of bad luck reminds me of that carjacker that chose the mma fighter to hijack and he got pummeled. Trayvon just chose wrong to confront Zimmerman. I am not saying that Travyon was a criminal in any way shape of form... just pointing out that... sometimes you have very bad luck and/or make bad choices in split decisions. Teenagers do that alot, as have I and, I am sure many others have also. | ||
| Sifo |
Xdigitalx, Exactly! I've tried to not make this about making a case against Martin. For me it's about the evidence that shows Zimmerman shouldn't be vilified as a murder. That seems clear. There is plenty of stuff floating around that tries to show Martin to be a troubled kid that was heading in a bad direction. I don't know how true any of that is. While it could show a pattern of behavior for Martin, it really doesn't shed light on the events of that night, so I've chosen not to traffic in that speculation. There's plenty of solid evidence that shows it's a case of self defense. I was reading some of the comments on the Daily KOS yesterday. It's shocking to see how ill-informed many people are on this case claiming Martin was hunted down like a rabid dog by Zimmerman. Some here seem to share that belief, even if they are less exuberant in the way they express it. It's still no less ignorant of the facts that are available. | ||
| Sifo |
Interesting accounts from witnesses. Here's what Martin's girl friend says happened while she was on the phone with him...
Big credibility problem though. In her account Zimmerman never broke off contact with Martin. The 911 tape makes it very clear that Martin ran away and lost Zimmerman. What to believe? I'll go with the recording! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I read this thread, and mentioned this before - but why has it taken so long for all of this to come to light? I mean, dude was shot over a month ago, but its just now getting any publicity (did see tonight at the grocery store that he was on the cover of People magazine with a caption of something like 'unarmed 17yr old murdered' |
