| Author | Message | ||
     Boogiman1981 |
5 engines in three bikes in 3 days. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Talking about 1190s at DIS or what? | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Yeah. I was there can't give details not my place but I am not impressed. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
all things mechanical fails, sometimes! and this week was that time for the 1190's, but if I was a betting man, I would bet that they learned a lot from racing this weekend and will get it sorted out for the next race. did EBR have any DNF's last season? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
They squeezed 213mph out of a v-twin over the off season. 205+ recorded on the track at Daytona if I heard correctly. Probably safe to say that the engine's mechanical limits are being crowded (exceeded). I'm sure they'll figure out a solution. | ||
| Barker |
IIRC Higbee's ate a valve. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Of course machines break.... The percentages of broken machines for this weekend are alarmingly high though. | ||
| Rde48 |
You got to find the limits somehow and 2 top 10 finishes to go along with finding the limits. Its still a young machine and will improve. | ||
| Tq_freak |
I talked to Geoff in the pits saturday, Said it was all his fault from drafting trying not to get passed and bouncing Red line in 6th for a little too long. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
yeah when i spoke to Erik on saturday he mentioned gearing and drafting issues as well. still highly concerning that there is a consistent failure point. i'm thinking the exhaust vales should be sodium filled stainless or a super alloy vs the Ti. Ti is just to brittle at the operating area these bikes are required to be at. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
All of this I believe is true so far from what we're hearing from all concerned but remember Daytona IS a track where drafting is a very important item in racing there. Not so much at tracks coming for the rest of the year. I looked at diagrams of the remaining tracks and there are some long straights to draft momentarily but nothing like at Daytona. As quoted: "I talked to Geoff in the pits saturday, Said it was all his fault from drafting trying not to get passed and bouncing Red line in 6th for a little too long." That is a very important statement by Geoff and maybe EBR will just rebuild to the same specs as they ran there and not change a thing. The remaining tracks should be much easier on these great V-twin engines. Its still going to be a great year of racing for all concerned. | ||
| Reepicheep |
For perspective... how cool is it that we are trying to figure out what will help the EBR bike to hold together at 200 MPH down the main straight at Daytona. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Do you think the fix is something as simple as adding a sprocket tooth, or are they in a balancing act between having enough power to maximize speed when running solo on one hand and not over-revving when drafting on the other? I know- 7th speed!  | ||
| Crackhead |
Adding 1 tooth to ether 6th gear or to the final drive sprocket would stop them from bouncing off the rev limiter. It is actually a very good thing that the same item broke. Having the same item break points at: there is an issue with the item specs (material or design), manufacturing of items involved with the item failure (QC), or the item is the weakest link when revving the snot out of the engine (make it stronger and up the red line by another 100 to find the next weakest link). | ||
| Rodrob |
The problem IMHO in valve bounce. The Ti valves are too brittle and simply break. The valve springs are stock and need to be stronger for Daytona where you run wide open at redline for more that 30 seconds every lap. This was a known problem as they lost 4 motors on one bike last year at Daytona. Not 1190 motors, but 1125RR motors with very similar if not the same valve setup. I am a little miffed that I was not made aware of this when I was discussing our going to Daytona with EBR. I might have made a different choice given my limited resources. They had no motor problems the rest of last season at different tracks. I suspect it will be the same this year. (Message edited by Rodrob on March 19, 2012) | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Yeah that would def have been nice to know | ||
| Azxb9r |
how cool is it that we are trying to figure out what will help the EBR bike to hold together at 200 MPH down the main straight at Daytona.  If the problem only occurs at 200+ it should be okay at the rest of the tracks  | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Mark (Azxb9r), that should certainly be true but they may gear down to have a better drive out of the corners and still bump the rev limiter, maybe at 190 or so, but definitely not for as long a time as at Daytona. Shorter straits at the remaining tracks. | ||
| Chauly |
But just as dire... :-) | ||
| Darth_villar |
It can't hurt to have the ability to redline for 30 seconds +. An engine that can perform at all tracks would be ideal IMO. I don't know if this kind of destructive testing was able to be performed before, but now it is clear that something must be changed. I am disappointed, but I have 100% faith that the exceptional minds at EBR will find a solution to fix this problem. | ||
| Court |
It's light years from the antiquated motor they were burdened with for years. These guys are breaking new ground for the only company in the race that started in a garage . . . . again. I'm excited. See you at the races. | ||
| Guell |
It's light years from the antiquated motor they were burdened with for years. well thats obvious These guys are breaking new ground for the only company in the race that started in a garage . . . . again. Thats great, and im excited for them, but you dont win races with failed engines... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Win? You have to be able to start to even have a chance at winning. | ||
| Whatever |
Boogi, you just need more beer and another nights sleep. Apparently you were sleeping, according to Nancy, when we left. The DNF for Danny's first run is still undisclosed as far as I know, at least it was when I talked to Erik about it. | ||
| Boney95 |
EBR needs a V4. | ||
| Aesquire |
Daytona is famous for breaking engines. Has been since they built the big oval, and quit racing on the beach. nascar, formula, any class of bike, the high banks and speeds at Daytona find the weak points, and break them. With the speed on the banking bike tires are riding more on their sides, changing the ratio's enough to overspeed the engines. ( plus Daytona is famous for killing tires. ) Poppet valves, with the exception of Titanium, got the basic design sorted out by the end of WW2, with sodium filled valves, stellite valve seats and screwed on/interference fit heads to resist and move the heat around where it could be shed. The heads on a Merlin, for example, include the cylinders, to help move the heat from the heads to the cooling jackets. At the RPM's in race engines, the problem is both transferring heat from the valve face ( up a sodium filled valve stem, and/or into the valve seat ) and the issue of springs just not able to keep up. That's why XB's have "beehive" nested multiple springs, to have no single resonance ( bounce ) frequency. Also why Ducati's had Desmodromic valve systems that open & close the valve with rockers and cams. Springs of the day just were not up to the job. Be interesting to see what the fix will be. (Message edited by aesquire on March 19, 2012) | ||
| Court |
>>>Be interesting to see what the fix will be. My thoughts PRECISELY . . . just knowing these folks working on this makes me believe it's going to be something neat. There is so much going on it's amazing. Amazing times . . . . | ||
| Satori |
Remember, racing, while in and of itself is great fun, ultimately its here to improve the breed. Everyone of us is a beneficiary of it, in every form of motorized transit that we use. Its meant to push limits, stuff breaks, then you fix it. Then something else breaks. I see a repeatable problem here, if its all valves. It comes down to the strength of materials. Is the shaft of the valve to small? or does it require a different material, that maybe heavier. How does a heavier valve effect things, stiffer valve spring, ok, how does that effect cam life, maybe need a stronger cam then what does that do to max rpm.. Its a young racing platform, and name me One race team , in any motor sport, that has not lost a engine. I have confidence that the elves will figure it out. Its gonna be a great season.. | ||
| Crusty |
I've seen all kinds of engines fail in the 200 over the years. Didn't all three factory Hondas die within five laps of each other a few years ago? Honda isn't the only factory to have engines die in the 200. In fact, I can't think of any. How long has KTM been running? I don't follow them too closely. There have been a lot of engines that had more engineering man hours than the present EBRs have that died unexpectedly during the 200. When you consider how small EBR is, and how much power they're extracting from their engine, there are bound to be failures along the way. They've found good power and they can run with the big dogs. Erik has some of the best talent in the industry working on the problem, and they will find the solution. These issues will be corrected, and you can bet they won't resurface. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
If I were putting out some serious coin to race one of these bikes I probably would be a bit miffed the issue wasn't addressed between racing seasons. Does EBR still receive any support from Rotax or are they on their own when it comes to engine engineering, etc? |
