| Author | Message | ||
     Moxnix |
Time to go. http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030 I was, as usual, troubled by the above article. Foreign presence in Afghanistan never pays off. Tonight I went on Netflix and looked for the Russian movie: 9th Company (9 Rota). English version available. History repeats itself. | ||
| Slaughter |
History repeats itself - tailoring the "situation" to match the audience. Read Frank Snepp (Saigon CIA station chief during the fall of Vietnam) - Decent Interval
| ||
| Starwolve |
If you want to kill a couple hours reading about the insanity that is Afghanistan, take a look at this blog: https://afghanright.wordpress.com/ I'm currently working in Northern Afghanistan... and have seen much of this firsthand. (Message edited by StarWolve on March 12, 2012) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Some of you are just coming to this conclusion now? | ||
| Blake |
No war can be won by an apologetic occupying police/security force, no matter how large or advanced it might be. Defeating a determined enemy in war demands ruthless tactics. The announced withdrawal is nothing but admission of defeat, a repeat of the despicable, dishonor and broken promises that was Vietnam, except this time orchestrated by the executive branch rather than congress. | ||
| Bartimus |
I thought our main reason for going to afghanistan was to get Bin Laden? since we got him, doesn't that mean mission is accomplished? | ||
| Aesquire |
Some of you are just coming to this conclusion now? Afghanistan was the "right" war. Ask the President. I've been critical all along as to our policies there, and on the Iraqi front, after we freed both nations from murderous and tyrannical rule. The war to free those nations was over in weeks. An awesome success. The peace and nation building has taken thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. In large part because the politicians ( R & D ) refuse to admit who the enemy is. Do you know who the enemy is? | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Do you know who the enemy is? ourselves | ||
| Fb1 |
We The People are NOT the enemy. | ||
| Sifo |
Time to leave. Might be time to blow stuff up on the way out too. Nation building can work. See Japan and Germany. It takes a longer term commitment than one administration can give though. As long as military actions are used as a political football we should never again get into nation building. If we find it necessary to go to war, just leave the smoldering mess for them to deal with. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
We The People are NOT the enemy couldn't agree more... but I think "We the people" are all viewed as one and the same from outside the fishbowl | ||
| Blackm2 |
Blake, you say defeating a determined enemy requires ruthless tactics yet we have never been ruthless enough over there because we play by rules that they do NOT play by. It is better to get out now, save the money, and reserve the right to pound them from a distance. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
how in the world does anyone think we can change the mindset of fanatics from the outside? | ||
| Blake |
David (BlackM2), >>> yet we have never been ruthless enough over there Exactly my point. It's war. Fight to win like we did in WW-II and we might have a chance. Brice (Boogiman1981), Awesome profile photo!  >>> how in the world does anyone think we can change the mindset of fanatics from the outside? Same as we did in WW-II with the Nazis and imperial Japanese. Utterly and completely destroy their ability to wage war. Unfortunately we are not willing to do so. It would require taking over the oilfields, wiping out the fascist sects of islam, aka "islamism". It would be world war. It would mean imposing values on others, like freedom of religion and secular govt. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, Perhaps you lean Jacksonian in these matters? http://www.lts.com/~cprael/Meade_FAQ.htm Mark ( Wolfridgerider ) "We have met the enemy and he is us." I'll accept that on a number of levels.... but that leaves the (external) enemy a deliberate blank. (external in para's since they is here. See CAIR and it's associated groups. ) | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Nation building can work........ yea but harder when you have corrupt guy like Karzai as president spouting even more hate. | ||
| Aesquire |
Just a few random thoughts... Never approve of a "islamic republic" as the "republic" part will be as real as the "people's republic" of, say, Korea... If you can't get a secular republic established, install a foreign overlord and rule with an iron fist.... It's not like that could be worse than an islamic "republic" always, always, turns out. pulling out of the freed nations and letting them collapse, like Vietnam, is a violation of all any honorable person believes in. Again. The actions of scum. Again. We really should remember who voted to screw the Vietnamese, and now the Iraqis and Afghans, the Poles and the..... You want to argue that we should never do "nation building" again? Ok, make your argument, and I'll listen and support the smart parts. ( while picking on the dumb ones ) | ||
| Aesquire |
http://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2012/02/27/its-not -you-islam-its-us/ | ||
| Trojan |
You want to argue that we should never do "nation building" again? It's usually a pretty simple argument. When we (the 'west') attempt nation building we always assume, quiet arrogantly, that we have the only model for modern living, so impose our own values on countries whose populations may not share the same values or want the same kind of society that we enjoy. Trying to impose any kind of western democracy on a tribal society like Afghanistan is always doomed to failure. Add the outside factors, such as other countries trying to protect or increase their own military or economic influence in the area, and it is little wonder that our attempts at nation building often fail. Believe me, the British have more experience than most in this field  If you want to build a country in your own image then you had better be prepared to hang around for a few hundred years to enforce it | ||
| Sifo |
You want to argue that we should never do "nation building" again? Ok, make your argument, and I'll listen and support the smart parts. ( while picking on the dumb ones ) If that is directed at my comment, and I think it probably is, I did qualify it with "As long as military actions are used as a political football". When we play politics with our military actions, the nation building inevitably fails. We've seen that in the past and are witnessing it in real time with Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of the cost of both of these conflicts has been with the nation building parts, not the crushing the enemy part. The crushing the enemy part could be done even more cheaply if we cared less about the cost of rebuilding. Honestly, in both Iraq and Afghanistan we are probably leaving them in better condition than we found them. It kind of gives them incentive to piss us off enough to invade their countries doesn't it. I know the Abdul the falafel maker probably doesn't want that, but to a political leader of that country, it might sound like a good economic plan and you get to blame the infidel during the sh!t storm. OK, it didn't work out well for Saddam, but for the Taliban in Afghanistan, they may come out ahead. | ||
| Slaughter |
Nation building has ONLY worked with the utter defeat and the UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER of the enemy. We would be just as effective were we to "punish" these tribal societies by witholding NFL franchises as we are taking the occasional, incidental military action. | ||
| Britchri10 |
RE: pissing off the USA so they invade & subsequently rebuild the country: read, "The mouse that roared." Chris C | ||
| Aesquire |
Trojan, you don't mind if I agree with you and still think their culture sucks? Don't want to haul out "manifest destiny" or "the white mans burden", since I read Kipling, and know better. Sifo, not picking on you, I agree, and with the next 2 posters. Thanks for bringing up "The Mouse That Roared". | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, you don't mind if I agree with you and still think their culture sucks? Not at all Must be a first for us to agree I happen to think their culture sucks too, but at the end of the day it is their culture and not ours, so they can do what they like with it really We should just leave them to it and get our troops out asap. | ||
| Aesquire |
The only troubles with a cowardly pull out are that the people who DON'T want to live a a pre-medieval culture are than forced to, little girls will have to stay in purdah until married off to 50+ year old Uncles at age 12, and, not least, every country on Earth will know that our Congress and President are absolute scum. Ok, they know that now, and the little girls being gang raped for walking outside at least won't have acid thrown in their faces for going to school, because they never will again. Thanks George and Barack for stringing along 50 million people to be abandoned to the Iron age. I think the reactor waste Bin Laden Memorial prayer ground idea sounds better and better. | ||
| Gohot |
QUOTE by Blake The announced withdrawal is nothing but admission of defeat, a repeat of the despicable, dishonor and broken promises that was Vietnam, except this time orchestrated by the executive branch rather than congress. *********************** Well Americans wanted oboma to end the occupations/wars..... they got what they wanted, sort of... | ||
| Sifo |
every country on Earth will know that our Congress and President are absolute scum. True, but it's not like their leader do ANYTHING to make the world better. | ||
| Aesquire |
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, all who speak some variant of English, and share a Western viewpoint, of various flavors, are pretty much the responsible adults on a planet full of bad actors. I understand the Prez of Poland wasn't too bad. Pity Barry screwed them. France seems to be trying to be a good neighbor under the current guy. I'm not sure we want Germany to be an active planetary police presence? But they do fairly well at being rational folk. This decade, anyway. ( not counting their internal citizenship/immigration policy, that sucks ) Not counting the many Bunkers German firms have built for dictators in the mideast, or France's sale of Chemical Warfare production gear....... But that was mostly last century. While the UN Oil for Bribes program was in full stream.... Part of the ineffectual sanctions era.... which is still here. ( see Iran & Syria ) Russia and China are, as for the last half century, Evil Empire and bound to a passive aggressive hostility to the West. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, When we (the 'west') attempt nation building we always assume, quiet arrogantly, that we have the only model for modern living, What do you propose would be a more acceptable model for Afghanistan and Iraq than a government defined by the rule of law? If we were to impose our own hand-picked oligarchy, dictator or puppet state, would that be better? What evidence do you have that we are being "arrogant" when trying to transform the governments of former enemies from despotic dictatorships or fascist oligarchies into ones beholding to the rule of law? Some values and ideals are indeed better than others. Are you arguing that the Taliban of Afghanistan and the Baathist of Iraq were preferable to what exists in those nations now? Are you trying to argue that tyrannical dictatorship or fascist militaristic rule ought to be preferred? so impose our own values on countries whose populations may not share the same values or want the same kind of society that we enjoy. I've heard or read comments like yours countless times. I just now gave it some thought, and I think it is complete nonsense. PC buzzwords that have been repeated so long that no one questions them. Maybe we should question them. What is the alternative to the values and principles that we are trying to instill in the new governments of former enemy nations? What "values" are we imposing? Trying to impose any kind of western democracy on a tribal society like Afghanistan is always doomed to failure. There is no such thing as a "western democracy." America for instance is a constitutional republic with HUGE checks against imposition of mob rule, which is what a democracy is. Personally, I don't see that we are behaving arrogantly at all, in fact I think the opposite is true, that we are acting nobly, intending to spread freedom, security, liberty and thus the most prosperity for all. We aren't trying to impose Hollywood or Wall Street on anyone. We are trying to help lead good folks towards their self-rule by means of the rule of law with checks and balances to avoid emergence of another fascist oligarchy or dictatorship. Free peoples don't often wage war on other free peoples. Despotism and fascism are the cause of most war in the modern era. So, which is better? | ||
| Blake |
It's an error of logic to equate "form of government" with "culture." |
