| Author | Message | ||
     Boltrider |
The two biggest attacks on our soil span about 60 years. One was done during a period of isolationism, the other during a period of interventionism. So which policy is more dangerous to our country? Or is it too simplistic to blame foreign policy on such attacks? Is America more "safe" today in light of terrorist attempts over the last several years?
I'm not sure how much the WWII example applies given today's tactics of border-less terrorist organizations. Fascist Germany is a special case that hasn't been repeated since. I guess what you're hinting at is Iran going the way of Fascist Germany and starting an invasion. As for what Ron Paul would do if such a thing happened, I can't answer for him. He may draw a distinction between direct involvement (boots on the ground) versus support for the invaded - namely Israel, in terms of supplies, weapons, etc. Israel has shown a keen ability to defend itself and I don't see them allowing Jews to be sacrificed without repercussions. History has shown that to be true. If he's not proactive enough and you don't like him because of that, then say it. Using a non-interventionist foreign policy in an attempt to make folks think it's "more dangerous for our nation" is something I'm not buying, particularly in light of the various terrorist attacks/attempts during this modern interventionist period. | ||
| Sifo |
We were isolationist back then but eventually entered the war anyway. Could that partially be because of interventionist policies? Give it a chance and history will repeat. It has to start with the powers of the world choosing to turn a blind eye toward evil. | ||
| Boltrider |
Isolationism has it's limits, just like interventionism has it's limits. We can't intervene in all places at all times, just like we can't always allow evil to carry on unchecked. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. If Paul is 100% isolationist all the time, then I don't agree with that. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
The biggest threat to America is Americans. I like Newt but dont trust him. | ||
| Sifo |
The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Quite true. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I can only take Ron Paul at his word in gauging how isolationist he is. So far, his positions are EXTREMELY isolationist. His position is MORE isolationist than was present before the United States entered WWI as evidenced by his pledge to end all US aid to Israel. During the days leading up to WWII we at least offered the Lend Lease program. Had Ron Paul's position been the prevailing one, we would have offered NO aid to England. How much MORE of an impact would Germany have had had we not at least offered them aid under Lend Lease? 9/11 did occur because of interventionists policies, but not in the way you are presenting. It wasn't our involvement in the Soviet Afghan war that created 9/11 but the short sighted aftermath in which we abandoned our ally after they spilled blood as our surrogate. We did the same in Iraq in the Iraq/Iran war. The problem comes when successive administrations loose sight of long term commitments and turn their backs on allies. We continue that trend even today. The other side of the coin is what would an isolationist standpoint like Ron Paul advocates look like given Domino Theory? Would the Communist Chinese have stopped at Korea. Had the Soviet Union not had to expend a decade of resources fighting an asymetrical war in Afghanistan, would those resources have been deployed elsewhere? What about our involvement Nicaragua? Would a soviet toe hold in south America created more stability or less stability for he United States? It's easy, as Ron Paul does, to look at a situation in a vacuum and Monday morning quarter back the decisions made. "We should never have gotten involved in the first Afghan war." Ok, great, what would the alternative have looked like if we hadn't? "We should have never supported the Shah in Iran." Fine, both the US and the Soviets wanted Iran for access to the oil. If we didn't put in our guy, they were going to put in theirs. The net result was that we got favorable prices on oil from Iran from 1953 to 1979. The opposite result would have been that the Soviets would have gotten that oil, and we would have had to pay a premium to get the same resources. Remember, we had access to world currency, the Soviets didn't. Capitalizing on Iran's oil allowed us to starve out the Soviet Union in yet another way. Either way, Iran was going to be dominated by someone. Between the two, our dictator was probably slightly better than the Soviet's dictator. My point is that Ron Paul provides a nice, neat purist position that is devoid of any historical perspective and is then proffered as a nice sound bite to be swallowed by his followers. I'd love the world to be as simple as it is in Ron Paul's head, but it simply isn't so. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
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| Moxnix |
I will root for the outsider. The insiders will merely keep the ruse on we rubes going. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
NONE of them is an outsider. Now what? | ||
| Ulyranger |
Cain was an outsider......gone. RP is not exactly an outsider because he is currently sitting, but is far from a party establishment guy. Bachmann if not an outsider, is certainly fringe enough to pizz off the establishment. The rest of 'em are purely inside the established power structure.........very unlikely we can obtain a non-insider nominated in this election cycle....which is exactly what both partys want........ | ||
| Moxnix |
The status quo of the inside considers them outsiders. In fear of being exposed to the rubes, the ruse continues. | ||
| Reindog |
FB is correct that RP is an isolationist, which is the quickest road to world conflict. It is truly sad that some people cannot comprehend and heed Santayana. It is even sadder how many of RP followers are intolerant and intransigent. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Bachmann is such a staunch conservative she is trying to wound newt for a vp spot with romney. | ||
| Fahren |
Reindog, Santayana knows when you've been naughty. ('tis the season - couldn't pass that one up :-) | ||
| Reindog |
Chris, thanks for that.  Hopefully, we will soon have someone who is making a list and checking it twice, other than Israel. | ||
| Moxnix |
Insiders who get something from The System hate Outsiders who threaten the status quo. Half of Wall Street digs Obama cause they make money on his idiot programs. The other half dislikes Obama but still makes money on his idiot programs. Add in the 50% of our population on the public breast and you've got a rather large block of votes and influence who don't want to give up their free government money. Ron is an outsider who threatens the easy squeazy business as usual across the board. When very tough economic times arrive overnight while the deaf, blind and dumb sleep, you get a radical response. This time it may be a Stalin, like Hillary who will be pandering to the 50% of the US on the public breast. Or, as history notes from the worldwide Great Depression, you get a Hitler into power when promising to rebuild his nation's economy. Of course, it's a given that Ron Paul will continue to be demonized in the media so their masters and special interest won't have to do the right thing for the Outsiders. If you don't watch the news, you're uniformed. If you do, you're ill informed. ~ w/apologies to Mark Twain For years it was possible, nee,' enjoyable, to be an Outsider. Now I see a nascent public will for a dictator from Left or Right. As American journalist Dorothy Parker wrote as she was following European politics: "No people ever recognize their dictator in advance. He never stands for election on the platform of dictatorship. He always represents himself as the instrument [of] the Incorporated National Will. ... When our dictator turns up you can depend on it that he will be one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally American. And nobody will ever say 'Heil' to him, nor will they call him 'Führer' or 'Duce.' But they will greet him with one great big, universal, democratic, sheeplike bleat of 'O.K., Chief! Fix it like you wanna, Chief! Oh Kaaaay!'" (1935) | ||
| Moxnix |
“There goes the republic,” says an article at Truthdig, by Robert Scheer. The defense authorization bill that Congress passed and President Obama had threatened to veto will soon become law, a fact that should be met with public outrage. Human Rights Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth, responding to Obama’s craven collapse on the bill’s most controversial provision, said, “By signing this defense spending bill, President Obama will go down in history as the president who enshrined indefinite detention without trial in US law.” On Wednesday, White House press secretary Jay Carney claimed “the most recent changes give the president additional discretion in determining how the law will be implemented, consistent with our values and the rule of law, which are at the heart of our country’s strength.” What rubbish, coming from a president who taught constitutional law... Sadly, this flagrant subversion of the constitutionally guaranteed right to due process of law was opposed in the Senate by only seven senators, including libertarian Republican Rand Paul and progressive Independent Bernie Sanders. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sometimes an "outsider" is radical enough that his ideas are threatening to all status quo. Other times, an "outsider" is just a crack pot. I will work diligently to keep this crack pot as far from the Presidency as possible. That said, if he wins the Republican nomination, I will vote for him. I will hold my nose and pull the lever just like I did in 2008. Even a radical isolationist with naive ideas and zero capacity to follow through on ANY of his ideas is better than Obama. The difference between me and the average Ron Paul drone is that I am pragmatic enough to vote for the lesser of two evils. The Paul zombies would rather not vote OR vote for a guaranteed failure third party rather than at least seek the lesser of two evils. Keep Ron Paul in the mix. Advocate for him to win. When he doesn't, get on board helping to elect the one who did get the nomination. It will probably be Romney. I don't particularly like Romney. If he gets the nod, I'll vote for him only because Obama is worse. | ||
| Moxnix |
I don't believe Ron Paul has a snowball's chance at the Equator to make it past the primaries. I wonder if many of the crowd getting out for him are Ayn Rand fans, working for their own John Galt. Bad things have been, are and will happen in this country. Egregious new legislation, funny with the money, it won't end. It is rare for a decent man to seek public office. He is ashamed of pandering. He is embarrassed by the stupidity of his own slogans. He is appalled by the low-lifes and quasi criminals with whom he must associate and from whom he must beg support. American presidential candidates generally fall into three categories. Those who are obviously incompetent. Those who are scalawags. And those who are jackasses. The job of the voters is to choose the defect most suited to the time. It's the sizzle that has me wringing my hands and gnashing my teeth. I fear the steak we have to eat on election day. | ||
| Cowboy |
I have been a republican for the last 50 yrs But if Romney gets the nod I will vote a protest vote and vote for Obama-Romney is a liberal wearing a conservative coat. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Cowboy, I agree. That said, I'd prefer liberal light to dark roast communist. Given a desire to get re-elected, and assuming that the trend is for Republican pick-ups in the House and Senate, I do feel that Romney will have to govern from at least the center right. | ||
| Blake |
Ann Coulter is big on Romney. She's been running down Newt lately. Toying with the mainstream media?  Calling those who support RP "drones" is uncool. His Israel and Iran stances are unacceptable to me; they are too naive and dangerous, but insulting his supporters sure won't help convince them of that. | ||
| Moxnix |
“Poor America...” writes a French friend. “It’s not the land of the free anymore. Now, it’s the land of slaves.” “We used to be so happy when we got to the US,” said another European. “We felt we could breathe more freely. The country was so big...so prosperous...and so open. “That was what I remember from about 20 years ago. But now it is quite different. I dread coming to the US. We came through US customs in Atlanta a few weeks ago. My wife had a half-eaten sandwich in her bag...which she had forgotten about. They put us in a special room and treated us like we were criminals. It was ridiculous...and humiliating. “But there’s always something. Someone is always yelling at you. Everything is illegal or forbidden. It just doesn’t seem like the same country it was a few years ago. So, we only come here when we have to for business reasons.” I explain that we have become a police state after 9/11, going after everyone in our country except for people like the ones who made 9/11 happen, whom we just have to chuck out. Too lame to protect ourselves from reality in the name of sacrificing our civil liberties on the alter of political correctness and caving in to the insane demands of progressives. Animal Farm, 1984, etc. This wasn't what I expecting when I was a kid. Anyone but Hussein Obama. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Agree Mox. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
We aren't any safer. We are just less free. | ||
| Reindog |
Cowboy, Romney is far from perfect but I would rather have a President who understands, and has been successful in, business. This creature who currently occupies the White House shut down the oil industry in your state the last I looked. Zero is absolutely clueless about how America works. Look, your vote in Louisiana is important whereas my vote in California is wasted because of the dimwits out here. Please don't do something rash or stupid. You will regret it. Think about Supreme Court nominations in the next four years. Who is more likely to nominate a business or Conservative, Romney or Zero? | ||
| Cowboy |
Reindog I know you are correct but I am so damn mad and I just dont trust Romney. Any of the other canadates I could stomack. And I see a hell of a lot of trouble comeing down the trail (over seas) I know that Obama is the worst thing that ever happened to the USA but some times the voters in USA deserve what in hell they get.-----sorry rant over. | ||
| Reindog |
I understand your anger. The next generation of voters don't deserve our voting for this Socialist/Marxist bastard. I never thought we would have a President whose domestic accomplishments would be to promote class warfare, gut our energy infrastructure, and foist a future health care bubble on Americans. Personally, I would vote for my cat's chew toy before I would ever consider voting for Obama. This man is sick. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Looks like the polls are open early!  (Message edited by pwnzor on December 20, 2011) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Its unanimous ; Reindogs cat chew toy over zero! |
