| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
>>> I remember when they opened a defect investigation over our early XBr headlights catching fire! >>> We were told here it was an anomaly and baseless too. Not an accurate characterization of that issue. Not rising anywhere near to the level of a car spontaneously bursting into flames. And a tired old axe that you've ground beyond any reasonable point of concern. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I know plenty of 1125 owners who wish they had VOLTS You've yet to name one. You've merely identified that there are some who are frustrated with their 1125. "I know plenty..."? Sounds like falsehood to me, just like some of your other statements. Why you felt the need to interject the issue here is bizarre. A gov't/taxpayer subsidized car spontaneously turns into house destroying conflagration is okay since some people had trouble with their Buell motorcycle? Such bizarre illogical reasoning serves no benefit. You've misspoke. Leave it at that, and move on, or take your axe grinding elsewhere. | ||
| Blake |
"I will believe we are good when I get through a riding season on one stator. Just replaced the second one under warranty." I'm missing where the above communicates a desire to have purchased a Chevy Volt instead of the Buell 1125. Blatant, clearly demonstrable falsehood can be chalked up to overzealous misstatement until it's author insists on defending it as truth; at that point it indeed does become a lie. | ||
| Ducxl |
Here we go again!! PLEASE do not ban me!!! PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE do not ban me! UNCLE!!! I'm SORRY!!! AAAAAAGHHHH!! Ohhh-NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!!! This thread is FULL of falsehood perpetrated by Court trying to discredit GM.A company he openly despises for taking survival monies.
When i first opened this thread i was led to believe the fire occured at the accident scene.FALSE!!!!!! HOOD!!! THERE's YOUR AXE GRINDING!!!! | ||
| Skntpig |
I get it. Obama made the Volt explode...Right? | ||
| Buellkowski |
Rather than color this issue as a "Government Motors" failure (which I, too, believe was the intent of this thread; see the use of the word "explode" rather than "fire" in the thread title), let's try to understand the underlying causes. The precious facts. At issue is the safety of large Li-ion batteries. Li-ion offers superior power density to NiMH, but at the cost of low abuse tolerance. Aside from Tesla and the Leaf, isn't the Volt the only other major vehicular user of Li-ion technology? Commercial pilots have long lobbied to ban/restrict Li-ion batteries from their cargo holds, in opposition to the commercial electronics industry, because of fears of battery fires. I think at least one airline accident (a UPS flight?) was attributed to a possible Li-ion battery fire. The problem is, these batteries are simply too valuable to ignore. The DOE has pushed for domestic Li-ion development for years. GM likely knew the risks associated with Li-ion tech when they designed and tested the Volt, and I find it extrememly hard to believe that the risks were ignored or not adequately addressed. I invite the Volt haters to post any proof of such risk negligence at GM. If the NHTSA testers failed to follow GM guidelines for power-down and battery inspection after the test crashes, where does fault for the fires lie? If a Tesla catches on fire, will your responses be as vitriolic as they are here? (Message edited by buellkowski on November 29, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
I know plenty of 1125 owners who wish they had VOLTS I'm sure this was meant to be nothing but a pun. Bad stator = no VOLTS. Seems some have missed this. Personally I find this fire thing very interesting. I know initially it was an issue because of a fire that happened weeks later. Didn't later testing develop fires soon after the crash test though? Even if the fires all happened later, there's little doubt in my mind that if the batteries can be damaged, there's a real danger of them burning NOW. I've talked to people who have seen this with model airplanes that have damaged Li-ion batteries. This testing does point out a problem with the VOLT. It also points out a problem that has been brought up many times around here when the EV discussions come up. People always want the solution of stations where batteries can be swapped out in minutes to overcome the issues with charging times. This would require the batteries be easily accessible. Current EV designs have the batteries buried deep in the chassis to protect it in a crash (clearly not protected enough. Easily swappable batteries would lose much of that protection and make the risks of fire and electrocution in an accident much worse. For this reason alone I don't see this ever being a reasonable solution. One other thing, gasoline still needs a source of ignition after the fuel tank has been ruptured. A Li-ion is the source of ignition for battery fires. What you see in the movies is far from reality too. I had my '76 Ranchero get rear ended by a semi with a full tank of gas. Knocked the rear axle right out of the vehicle, gas was everywhere, including inside the passenger compartment. There was a trail of gas close to 100 feet long where the Ranchero skidded on the pavement without the rear axle in place. No fire. | ||
| Buellkowski |
Heh, I'm reading that Ford will introduce vehicles with Li-ion batteries next year. Good enough for Ford, but not GM, huh? | ||
| Ohsoslow |
Ohsoslow u got it backwards, diesel is a combustible, gasoline is a flammable. Under 100 degree's ignition point is flamable over 100 is a combustible. We have been doing some training on the volt at work (FD). In some of there manuals that show us fireman where to cut where not to cut. which wires can be cut which ones cannot. They stated that there was no way the batteries could catch fire. So we are watching this close. whoops! youre right, that what i get for staying up too late.}} | ||
| Sifo |
Heh, I'm reading that Ford will introduce vehicles with Li-ion batteries next year. Good enough for Ford, but not GM, huh? This simple fact is that it's Chevy volts that are burning up when crashed. I really don't care who makes them, I don't want to get burned to death by them. | ||
| Chauly |
The Hyundai Sonata Hybrid uses Li-Ion batteries. Catching up a bit: "If GE buys 20,000 Volts, don't they just buy 20 kV?" (It also sounds like their commitment is spread out over the next few years, rather than "current-ly"  ) I have a second-generation Prius (2004). It has had no end of problems: a front wheel bearing started to get noisy at 120K, the front brake pads wore out at 168K, and... ummm... I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop--- the rear shoes! Clicked over 204K and still humming (43 mpg average/tank @ 70 mph) I'm with Court: the GM/union bailout still rankles. I have considered a Ford, lately. But it will probably be another Prius... I have never seen a Volt on the road, so I'm not concerned that one will burn me up. Nickel-MH batteries are not immune to fires, either. I dropped my DeWalt Cordless Drill, and a few minutes later it started smoking and popping. I ran out to the driveway, ejected the battery, and watch it burst into flame. DeWalt replaced it free, and I still use it, but without dropping it. | ||
| Froggy |
Not totally baseless, they want to make sure everything is good before it can be a major issue. Perhaps some new regulations on battery design or storage will be required to keep events to a minimum.
I'm sorry, but where in the article does it say the charger was at fault? The guy had a charger and his garage went on fire. Is it possible that it was the cause? Sure. Is it possible the charger was not at fault? Yep. The article even goes on to say "We won’t know until we sift through it and find all the evidence that we can find.” At this point nobody knows.
Simple, use a gas car. Pure electrics aren't meant to replace them, just complement them. The Volt sits in the middle of the two groups with being an electric car with an on board range extending generator, eliminating the need for two vehicles.
Me, but like I said before I need a pickup.
Thats taking things out of context. Jamie traded his in for a scooter because it is a better commuter vehicle. He did not have any issues with his 1125R in the 2 years he had it. The scoot fits his needs better so he went to it. You should also know that he still has his BMW touring bike too.
Pretty much, despite the vehicle being in development for years before he was elected.
Correct, the Prius will be switching soon if they haven't yet.
They were specifically testing to try and make it ignite, so yes it did. They are trying to see what it takes to make it happen, and if anything needs to be done about it.
Everything I've seen shows that the battery was untouched, the fire was due to thermal runaway due to the cooling system being damaged. | ||
| Court |
The mouth moves. . .but seems unconnected to the mind. You make bold sweeping claims and run like a scolded child when asked to back them up. I hope you see why so few will likely take you seriously. No one called you a "liar". You simply say things without basis. In my business, it's called "talking out your ass". I will concede one thing . . you do it well. | ||
| Benm2 |
Both Valence Technologies and A123 Systems make Lithium batteries that don't have the safety issues of traditional lithium batteries. Valence even has a video. http://www.valence.com/lifemgpo4/battery-safety The automakers thus far have stayed away from them. Unless you count Fisker. GM should have died, and been buried with Chrysler. And Studebaker and AMC. It's happened before, and should have happened again. All that fluff about the supply chain suffering - they suffered anyway AND they likely already supply Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Subaru, Nissan and Ford who ALL make cars in the US. More deserving companies would have filled the supply gap, and we would have been a better nation for it. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
on another note, I do dig and envy that new hybrid BMW i concept coupe  | ||
| Raceautobody |
Fords have had their share of fires too. All car makers have their problems. http://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deac tivation-switch-recalls-and-history (Message edited by raceautobody on November 29, 2011) | ||
| Court |
>>>I'm sorry, but where in the article does it say the charger was at fault? It doesn't mention the charger anywhere in that article. It does in several hundred others. I don't think anyone can say with certainty it was the charger . . . just that it appears there MAY be an article.
Read up and tell me what you think. It's pretty much a non-issue to me . . . I've had my new little scoot mobile for 90 days and it's about as green as I'm willing to be at this point and it's one of 3 models rated at over 40MPG. We'll see where the electric cars go . . but they certainly don't appear ready, nor do consumer seem interested, at this point in the game. | ||
| Sifo |
The good new for Chevy is that a recall of all Volts only affects a couple thousand vehicles.  | ||
| Froggy |
The Volt uses a battery from A123. http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/09/gm-chooses-a123-to-m ake-the-chevy-volt-battery-pack/
Thats my point, its all finger pointing without real answers at this time. Which is pretty much the situation with the Volt. | ||
| Blake |
Being forced to help pay GM, a business that should have been left to fail, and subsidize those who purchase a Chevy Volt is what makes me sick, literally nauseated me. Absent that, I have no problem with it. It just a huge failure is all. | ||
| Benm2 |
Froggy - they chose them (A123Systems) as a development partner, but my understanding was that they ultimately were NOT chosen. They were one of two finalists but the contract went to LG Chemical. A link from the same site you referenced, with a later date: http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/12/its-official-gm-choo ses-lg-chemcompact-power-inc-to-supply-chevy-volt- lithium-ion-battery-packs/ I had high hopes for A123, I thought their technology was really neat, but for whatever reasons neither them nor Valence made a lot of headway. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Last News Item I read on Batterys Ford and Toyota signed a Joint development agreement to design new batterys for hybrids and Electrics. Have not read any thing on the status of the project. | ||
| Aesquire |
There was a big hoo-rah when the Volt came out from the car magazines. Not about the taxes we paid to make & promote it, ( there were, and are editorials about that ) BUT the car mags complained that GM had told them it was a serial hybrid. It's not. It's a weird form of parallel hybrid. ( a serial hybrid is an electric vehicle with a fuel powered engine making juice to run the electric motors. and/or recharge batteries. Like a diesel-electric locomotive. The engine is not hooked to the wheels. } A parallel hybrid like the Prius & Volt has the motor AND engine hooked up to the wheels. In the Volt's case it's a pretty cool gearing thingee, worth looking at for it's cleverness. I haven't had a ride in a Volt, so don't know how well the hybrid parts switching what does what stays invisible. On the Prius, you have to pay close attention to catch the changes in power flows. The Prius, unlike the Volt, recharges the battery pack while driving, ( also true on other Toyota and Honda hybrids ) The Volt doesn't. That's why the Volt gets only 30 some mpg on the gas engine, after you run the battery down. You recharge the Volt battery by plugging in. The stock Prius has no plug. ( since the battery is kept charged ) With a Prius you can buy a bigger aftermarket battery pack and software changes to permit longer range on battery alone. Not, AFAIK, as far as a Volt, and nowhere close to a true electric, like a Leaf. The Prius gets a pretty honest 40+ mpg. Drive from CA to NY, and the Prius will use about 25% less gas than a Volt. Drive 9 miles to work, and the Volt will do it on electric only, unless it's cold, dark winter rain or snow. ( winter gives a Volt about a 15 mile total range. ) The Prius will get good mileage, but won't ( stock ) do 9 miles on the battery alone. I can only assume the reason the Volt is programmed & built that way is political. To be able to declare themselves an "electric car" and not a "hybrid". I also assume that is for marketing purposes. Both to the public, and the Green Religion authorities that help pay for the Volt with your money..... but that's not the issue at hand. Any energy storage system capable of pushing a reasonable car down the road at highway speed will have the potential, when damaged, to make a pretty intense fire. We'll see how this works out, in time. My personal decision for a high mileage car was a VW Sportwagen TDI diesel. 35-40+ real world MPG, no fancy & expensive battery pack, great handling. ( but very fancy high pressure direct injection & possible future high maintenance, plus higher priced fuel ) | ||
| Court |
We've made 7 trips to Kansas and Wisconsin in a Ford Focus. We get 37.4 running about 75 mph on. 1,000 day. | ||
| Benm2 |
Ford has done some great things recently. The new Focus in one of them, as is the Fusuion hybrid. For long highway trips, I can squeak 52-57 mpg from the Prius at 72-77 mph. My wife gets less, but her foot is heavier - she dips in more to pass or accelerate. It's REAL benefit is the Philly rush hour - where one can move along at 10 mph for a good portion of a 25 mile commute. Whereas my little Mazda Protege will drop below 20mpg in that mess, the Prius stays between 44 and 50. It's hard to really utilize it's full abilities in heavy traffic (battery only moves) since the traffic tends to move in heaves & lurches - if you leave a gap then 4 cars with cut in front of you to fill it. Regarding energy storage - I think the risk of electrical batteries is still something that needs to be assessed. As the batteries get bigger AND have higher instant-current capabilities, there's the potential that they could almost discharge like a massive capacitor - one big jolt of several hundred amps. Just throwing ideas out - airbag style main battery cutoff (physical disconnect/relay) for impacts. If it trips the airbag, it's probably safe to say the main power wire should be deadened too. Maybe they already have this feature? Another would be some sort of control-rod setup for the battery - where if there was battery damage/thermal runaway, there was some sort of counter-chemical absorber that was released in the battery to kill it. I was a bigger fan of electric cars before, but I'm more of a fan of hybrids now. It just doesn't seem safe to try to store that many electrons in one spot. Hydrocarbons make energy storage so much easier. What I'd really like is a natural gas hybrid - given the marcellus shale finds in the northeast and elsewhere, it seems a fuel that's plentiful within our own coasts. And you can make more from garbage dumps! | ||
| Court |
The Focus . . . both the 2010 and the 2012 ROCK. Ford got it right. The 2012 is not without a couple quirks and the 2010 and 2012 are two completely different cars. Each great in their own way. Greatest appeal is that the are CHEAP to own and to operate.   But . . . The Focii have been known to gang up on foreigners.   S U R R O U N D E D ! ! | ||
| Davegess |
I love my 2003 Focus SVT. If I was looking for a new car the Volt would be tempting. ( days out of ten I drive a total of less than 40 miles, my one way commute is 12 miles. If I talk my boss into letting me plug my car in at work, there is an out near the loading dock, I would almost never use the gas engine but it would be there if I needed it. Most people drive less that 40 miles a day. | ||
| Court |
I think NYC would be IDEAL for electric vehicles. The NYC taxis (13,087) are largely going to Hybrid manufacturer outside the USA. One of the greatest taxi routes in NYC is to and from airports . . . imagine, as those 375,000 tourists per day come and go, if all the taxis sitting in line were plugged in. I drive a lot of miles (cool for me, cause I love driving) and turned over 10,000 miles on the 100th day I owned the 2012 Focus. Many days I drive 200-300 miles. I see electric cars and making their debut in the metro and commuter roles . . . you want to drive from NYC to Topeka . . that's going to be fossil. But . . . while we are developing electric we need to get our collective heads out of our fossil asses as well. Most of the problems we have with petroleum bases fuels has nothing to do with scarcity and everything to do with geo-political factors. | ||
| Sifo |
I'm actually thinking about my next car purchase. Focus is at the top of my short list right now. Similar car for about half the price of the Volt. I can buy a lot of gas for $20K. I rarely drive a car in the summer, so it's pretty much a winter vehicle where the Volt performs poorly compared to it's optimal climate. I would spend many of my miles running on gas in the Volt where it's mileage is mediocre. I think I'll go for a vehicle where my feet won't freeze. Court, Is the 2012 Focus the first year for the direct injection engine? I'm a little hesitant to buy the first model year with new technology, but I think it's been in other engines for a couple of years. It looks great on paper, but I'm wondering about real world problems. I know some of the Ford diesels can be very problematic and expensive to keep on the road. | ||
| Crackhead |
I am sure everyone knows the phrase Good enough for Chevy. I think it still applys. |
