| Author | Message | ||
     Drkside79 |
And so most likely are you. That said. I AM NOT AN OWS SUPPORTER. However things must change. Companies must stop cutting wages of workers while lining their pockets. Oil companies feet must be held to the flame as their price gouging is putting truckers out of work and raising costs on all products. All should be taxed evenly by percentage. If you make 10 bucks you owe 3 dollars if you make 10 million you owe 3 million. No charity donation breaks. If you donate to charity GREAT getting comped for it is ridiculous. New monopolies should be broken up no more hiding in loopholes. Interest rates should be standardized. If your credit sucks improve it. If a bank is on the fence than make their own decision and live with it. However charging people with average to fair credit more is a racket. Most peoples credit gets torched by medical bills. Get them off credit. It is not a choice to get sick or break an arm so it should not be part of credit. I will say again the premise behind OWS is true. The execution and overall planing or lack there of is inexcusable and stupid. I am sick to death of being lumped in with brainless lazy ninnys. If Sifo and FT post one more vidio of a brain-dead wannabe hippy or deviant as a representation of the 99% I will scream They ARE NOT THE 99% the are 1 % of the pissed off 99% making the rest of us look like morons for having some of the same beliefs but the common sense to know that this is not the way. I am the 99% I am employed. I am struggling. I understand that it is do to some of my own choices. I also understand that parts are out of my control. I won't take off work to chant in a park. I won't join the Republicans because OWS are morons. I will scrape and claw until I die so i feed and clothe my kids. And if i ever figure out a reasonable way to fix thing I ••••••• WILL I AM THE 99% and so most likely are you PS sorry if the above was broken rambling but I'm tired, pissed, and in desperate need of more coffee. PPS Good morning Badwebbers (Message edited by drkside79 on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Reindog |
Nice post, Andy. | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Sifo |
 The rest of your post... I'm not even sure where to start. | ||
| Pwnzor |
The rest of your post... I'm not even sure where to start. It's ok, we know you're clueless.  (Message edited by pwnzor on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
Pwnzor, You got a chuckle out of me. I agree with much of what Darkside79 says in his post. His solutions are just very simplistic. Same problem that Cain's 999 plan has. I'm betting the oil companies would love his plan though. They've been paying record breaking tax amounts. You never hear that side of it though. The poor on the other hand won't like paying 30% tax though. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Dark If we had lower taxes we could pay more. Ok its really simple to follow I need to buy a company truck to put another guy on 1 I pay cash money is spent however I get taxed on the money at the given rate that year Ok truck is 40k nonstocked with tools parts etc. I have to cover 40k+ 16 + state sales tax etc sales tax is paid up front so no longer counted in this example. So I spent 56k on the truck its written off over 5 years. If I finance the truck I make a down payment and make payments the cost of financing is actually less than paying the tax! So if I m fugal and run debt free the Gov steals more than I save. Is that fair. With Obamacare I will be paying 21.67 per hour for Insurance coverage not including Workers Comp. WC runs 17% of gross IRS etc has not determined if WC is taxable My bet is yes! if it is the insurance retirement wc and taxes are nearly 4 time the first day apprentice hourly rate. So its like this you want me who already pays Union benefits to pay 50.5% taxes on said benes and WC. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! No apprentices just journeymen = no future Keep raising our costs you wont have a economy. Sending tech out to your home to fix your $1000 cost furnace will cost you $225-275 per hour. Cost per hour proportions are direct labor costs hourly rate insurance etc no vehicle etc cant cost more than 20% of your hourly rate inorder to make a profit. I fired all my union employees when they made more than I and I couldnt afford my own insurance! The point of being in business is to provide a better life for your family. If it doesnt you have a choice make the changes you have to or quit. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Sifo, I couldn't resist... figured you'd see it as a good-natured jab. I'm in accord with Andy on the majority of what he's said, more and more as of late. No real tax solution can be simple, this machine has too many moving parts. HOWEVER, I do believe the "poor" need to pay THEIR fair share of taxes. If I pay, you pay, we all pay. That's the nature of the beast. I make a nice living on the record, and I make a fair piece off the record. I do it because I can. I pay damn near $1500 a month right off the top. I don't really consider that fair, but it keeps the gubmint off my back. | ||
| Drkside79 |
The point of being in business is to provide a better life for your family. If it doesnt you have a choice make the changes you have to or quit. Partially true. You make a change if you can. Quitting is only an option if you have money to begin with. The average company. - They have cut jobs cut wages. How much of that do you think happened on the top? No they still have multiple houses fly on private jets Buy new cars and work half days. All made possible by paying their employees less. @ my current job people are making 10 to 20k less than average. Why because its incredibly hard to find new jobs right now. I'm not talking 75 K and above here either I'm talking 25-30 k that should be making 40 to 50K I understand some companies are struggling. Did they get handouts doubtful. Do i feel for them YES! I hate that small business is killed by giant companies. I hate even more that big companies escape many taxes and lobby BIG BROTHER to allow it to happen. I also said my solution isn't right either. If it was i would be running for office. | ||
| Strokizator |
Government regulations/tweaking the system is what got us into this mess. Anybody who thinks more regulation will fix it is seriously mistaken. The oil companies don't set the price of crude at the well or gas at the nozzle. 42 years ago a new Camaro cost around $3,500 and gas was 35¢ a gallon. Now a Camaro will set you back $35,000 and gas is around $3.50. My first house was $19K and is worth approx 10 times that even today. Why pick just one item and bitch that it costs more than it used to? Oil is sold on the open market in dollars per barrel. The federal deficits have caused the dollar to be worth less, not that a barrel of oil is worth more. Had oil been sold on yen/barrel the price rise would not seem high. In 2007, a barrel of oil was 7930 yen ($65). Today it costs 7566 yen ($97). Show me where the oil companies are gouging us. | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo, I couldn't resist... figured you'd see it as a good-natured jab. I'm in accord with Andy on the majority of what he's said, more and more as of late. No real tax solution can be simple, this machine has too many moving parts. HOWEVER, I do believe the "poor" need to pay THEIR fair share of taxes. If I pay, you pay, we all pay. That's the nature of the beast. I make a nice living on the record, and I make a fair piece off the record. I do it because I can. I pay damn near $1500 a month right off the top. I don't really consider that fair, but it keeps the gubmint off my back. I'm in agreement with a lot of that too. I even agree with a fair amount of what you hear from the OWS folks. How to fix it is a whole-nother matter. I actually think we have a good tax system that has been way overburdened with too many cases of "here's you slice of the pay off". Where I think we've gone off base is corp. taxes. Corps. shouldn't be paying taxes (because they don't). The problem is that it's harder and far more obvious that the government is involved in picking their winners if you get rid of corp. taxes. On personal taxes, we have a pretty good system that has been bent to the breaking point. About half the country isn't paying anything, yet they are screaming for the other half to pay "their fair share". This is insanity! If you have income you should be paying something with the exception of the very low wage earners. Penalizing the successful is also insanity. We should be thrilled that you can become rich in this country. Most countries in the world you wouldn't have that opportunity. Somehow we have become a country with a large plurality that demonizes the wealthy, then wonders why they take their wealth beyond our borders. Me, I've had a few years where I paid more in taxes that I made at my job! It may be true that no one ever went broke from capital gains taxes, but they sure do put a dent in the coffers at the end of the year sometimes. Of course if I have capital losses, that's pretty much on me. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Andy/Sifo, The roughly $65,000 per year I earn on the books becomes $47,000 before I ever get my hands on it. When I used to make $35,000 it turned into $33,400 after the government got done with it. Now, I work 60 hours a week. Then, I worked 32 hours a week. Another key difference, I got all my tax money back each year when I was in the lower bracket. Now, I break even. What's my incentive to achieve higher income levels? The more I make, the more they take, and it's not proportional to anything other than out of control spending. (Message edited by pwnzor on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
"I am the 99%"? No! I am an individual! My earnings may fall within the bottom 99% of Americans. "The 99%" is nothing but an incredibly vague statistical characterization intended to demonize individuals based solely on their earnings falling within an incredibly narrow criteria. That is class warfare; it is deceptive, and it is evil, the favored tactic of totalitarian fascists. Is it not just as valid to say that we are all likely part of the top 99%? If so, then what about the bottom 1%? Shall we demonize that minority too, solely based on an idiotic statistical assertion?  Bullies and evil people like to separate a minority and generate mob hatred against them. Fascism sucks. Wise up. OPEC may price gouge, but with profit margins running around 10%, how is it that the big oil companies can be acused of such greediness? Please explain. In case you missed it... The root of the problem lies in a long-corrupted over-reaching federal government. Business is doing what it does naturally, looking for every legal advantage available. We need a constitutional amendment to establish free unfetered trade among the various states and to prohibit government intervention in legal competitive commerce among the citizens of the United States of America. The outrageous corruption of the commerce clause must end. I am an individual. I support honesty, integrity, and freedom. I support the rule of law and oppose at all fronts the corrupt rule of men. The rule of law in America has been horribly corrupted. Until that is resolved, the problems will only worsen. Those yielding authority over TRILLION$ of Americans' earning will always be bent towards using that almost inconceivable amount of wealth towards their own selfish agendas and towards their own political ideologies. The control of Americans' wealth must be removed from the central gov't and rightly returned to the people, their cities, counties, and their states where the amounts are diminished and the likelyhood of total corruption is mitigated. People don't choose to become ill? No, not likely if they are sane. However MANY people choose very risky unhealthy lifestyles. Why should those who do choose healthy lifestyles be forced to bear the inevitable health cate burden of caring for those who lack the self-control and self-discipline to do so? If gov't is going to mandate that we must bear that burden, then gov't ought also to mandate that those accepting gov't-provided health care abide by some minimum standards of healthy living. You want gov't to take care of you? Fine, then just like responsible parenting demands, you will need to abide by the practical reason-based rules set by those who are forced to pay for your care. The choice is yours. (Message edited by blake on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Sifo, >>> Corps. shouldn't be paying taxes (because they don't). I used to accept that too. But a simple analysis shows it to be false. Corporations are not taxed on adjusted gross revenue like wage earners are. They are taxed on profit. No profit, no tax. Paying even 30% on a 10% net profit amounts to a price increase of roughly just 5% to offset the tax. | ||
| Blake |
Is it not the case that a publicly held corporation pays income tax only on that profit which is not distributed to shareholders, or is that profit taxed twice? I'm ignorant of that issue. If taxed twice, that is dead wrong. | ||
| Sifo |
Paying even 30% on a 10% net profit amounts to a price increase of roughly just 5% to offset the tax. Absolutely true, but that money still comes from their customers in the end. Is it not the case that a publicly held corporation pays income tax only on that profit which is not distributed to shareholders, or is that profit taxed twice? I'm ignorant of that issue. If taxed twice, that is dead wrong. I believe you are referring to dividends on bond holdings. Those are not a tax deduction to the corp. and are indeed double taxed as I understand it. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Blake, >>>People don't choose to become ill? No, not likely if they are sane. However MANY people choose very risky unhealthy lifestyles. Why should those who do choose healthy lifestyles be forced to bear the inevitable health cate burden of caring for those who lack the self-control and self-discipline to do so? All i said was that this should not be on your credit. Not that the Gov should pay for it. Also you criticize the label off 99% being "That is class warfare; it is deceptive, and it is evil, the favored tactic of totalitarian fascists. " Then in your next breath allude to me being a Fascist. "Fascism sucks. Wise up. " So i shouldn't do it but when you do it it's ok. Hypocrisy Sucks wise up. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Pwn >>>What's my incentive to achieve higher income levels? The more I make, the more they take Because 47 is still higher than 33 | ||
| Sifo |
Hypocrisy Sucks wise up. Where was the hypocrisy? | ||
| Xl1200r |
You can't just ignore a big part of someone's debt for credit ratings because of what it was used for. Regardless of the circumstances, if you have a pile of debt you're paying off, you're monthly disposable income is reduced. Period. You are not as credit worthy than if you didn't have that debt. Period. It may suck that your credit is in the toilet because of cancer or something, but at the end of the day the cash left over in your pocket doesn't care if it was for a doctor or a new car. | ||
| Whitetrashxb |
sounded like Blake was suggesting don't fall for fascist deceptive tactics, not actually labeling you as one | ||
| Pwnzor |
Because 47 is still higher than 33 Well, on the surface it appears that way, but I've actually taken a pretty deep pay cut. Humor me for a moment here. $33,000 take home for 1664 hours worked is a net $19.83 per hour. $47,000 take home for 3120 hours worked is a net $15.06 per hour. Back then we had two incomes in the house and two dependent children. Now, I am the sole wage earner, and we have three dependent children. I will ask the general assembly once again, WHERE is my incentive to earn more money? | ||
| Whitetrashxb |
"Because 47 is still higher than 33" i can't believe that is valid reasoning... | ||
| Drkside79 |
Sifo I will try to explain again I used the label of saying I AM the 99% and was told that it is The 99%" is nothing but an incredibly vague statistical characterization intended to demonize individuals based solely on their earnings falling within an incredibly narrow criteria. Then and perhaps I'm wrong but he said That is class warfare; it is deceptive, and it is evil, the favored tactic of totalitarian fascists. So as he pointed out i used that tactic that using it is a facist tactic and then told me to wise up that Fascism suck. So please show where he did not allude that i was a Fascist after saying that to falsely label someone is wrong? | ||
| Drkside79 |
i can't believe that is valid reasoning... Well than your math skill suck. if you had a choice between 47 dollars and 33 dollars which would you take????? | ||
| Drkside79 |
Should have put a smiley face on that last one so it didn't sound as harsh. oops  | ||
| Sifo |
So please show where he did not allude that i was a Fascist after saying that to falsely label someone is wrong? You seem to miss the point completely. The fascist action that you are partaking in is the class warfare, not the labeling of people. | ||
| Sifo |
I've gone the opposite direction as Pwnzor. For a variety of reasons, I've just found it easier to take a low paying job that has low hours and no stress. $47 isn't always more than $33. The first year I was a bit nervous about making ends meet. Once we did taxes for that year we could see that we were fine simply because the tax load was so much less. | ||
| Whitetrashxb |
i didn't use my math skills to conclude i'd rather make $19.03/hr as opposed to $15.06/hr but i did use them to conclude i'd prefer to keep 95% of the money i earn (33,400/35,000) as opposed to 72% of it (47,000/65,000)  | ||
| Pwnzor |
if you had a choice between 47 dollars and 33 dollars which would you take????? You're right, Andy. I'll take the 47 every time, regardless of how many hours I have to work to get it, but that's ME. Not everybody shares my work ethic. If I see another dollar out there, I'll work to get it. All the better if it's another $14,000. |
