| Author | Message | ||
     Gregtonn |
"If they cannot support their families and there are no industries in their areas of residence and they have no other options avialable to them..." I call BS on that. Lots of oil up there.  G | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Because they were doing the same thing for 80+ years mean they should keep doing it? Maybe they should move down to South America where they can fish naked. (j/k) But then again,.. according to global warming experts in 100 years Alaska may have many new beach resorts like in cancun. They should adapt. | ||
| Whatever |
So you are all for everyone in this world being a suburanite and developing oil fields that don't belong to them anymore and haven't in 40 years (hence the link to the ANCSA)? OK whatever... I am not even going to argue the point because it is just completley lost on some... (Message edited by Whatever on October 30, 2011) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
So there's this Republican, a Democrat & a global warming expert on a melting ice floe, And the polar bear says, "You don't see many of them round here these days." | ||
| Gregtonn |
Whatever, As to the first part of your post. Nope. I was born a country boy and will always be a country boy at heart. Don't live in the city limits and don't want to. As to the second part. I wouldn't argue the point either if I had such a weak basis for an argument. The oil is there, when the government gets out of the way it can be put to good use and the jobs will be there too. G | ||
| Whatever |
BTW the way of life is something that has been continuous since since settlement and preservation of it is a Federally recognized treaty right that the US Gov is bound to uphold. It doesn't really matter if people don't understand it. It is a right that members of tribal sovereign nations never abrogated. So saying it is a 'weak argument' just reveals a lack of knowledge on the issue. You can tell your side to Exxon, BHP Billiton and Rio Algom and they would laugh in your face. You could also probably get the same reaction from the Federal Supreme Court. Just because you don't recognize doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do a little research on the issue and then try again. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I think we should definitely develop those oil fields because in 50 years when nuclear/solar or "whatever" energy takes over... we can totally shut them down 100%. We need it. I see no problem there. Then we can force the same ideas on everyone else in the world. (going solar/nuclear or "whatever") | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Fed Laws can be changed can't they? 300 million people say so. OCCUPY ALASKA! | ||
| Whatever |
I agree with drilling there if it is done in an environmentally responsible manner. Also, most tribes and tribal corporations that are successful, such as the one(s) I worked for are using their financial resources to protect natural and cultural resources quite effectively. They can't be separated as most indigenous religions do not distinguish between the two. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"BTW the way of life is something that has been continuous since since settlement and preservation of it is a Federally recognized treaty right that the US Gov is bound to uphold." Whatever, I understand the whole "way of life" thing. I have worked with and am friends with many who have "special" hunting, fishing and other privileges due to their heritage. I also know that, as a community, they are free to develop their lands as they please. I also have two brothers who have been living in Alaska for several decades and have worked both on the reservations and in the oil industry. I could give you a long winded lecture on the subject but it's not in my nature to do so. G | ||
| Whatever |
Special? They are inherent. I think there is a difference. The treaties also indicate so. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Whatever, "...due to their heritage." her·i·tage (hr-tj) n. 1. Property that is or can be inherited; an inheritance. 2. Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition. 3. The status acquired by a person through birth; a birthright. Did you miss that or just ignore it? G | ||
| Kenm123t |
The Kyoto Protocol is a feel good document Few of the Signatories have met the carbon reductions many have increased their Carbon outputs. Once we get real research on weather data and not this faked data because we feel its the right thing we can discuss the subject. Global warming nuts are the same loonies that predicted an Ice age about 30 years ago. Reviewing the models reveals the models are too limited and subjective to prove warming. | ||
| Whatever |
Greg, I hear you. Where I come from people who like to attack tribal treaty rights use the term "special" rights to imply they are some kind of entitlement that should be revoked, when the fact is that certain treaty rights were never abrogated. And, now back to our regularly scheduled program of b*tching about the weather ... | ||
| Blake |
I just don't buy the alarmist stuff. Too much fraud, too much money, too much hypocrisy. Eskimos have a guarantee against the climate changing? Sea level is dropping. Explain? >>> You look at glaciers retreating, the carbon record in Antartic ice, the levels of carbonate in sea sediments on top of the measurements in the atmosphere it all matches up. Matches up to what? Climate warming?  Climate warming catastrophically?  Much warmer not too long ago, no? Medieval warm period? Much much more ice long ago, yes? Migration across the bearing strait land bridge? Elevated atmospheric carbon dioxide? At some points in history much more than now though, yes? The next ten years will tell us much, and as you say, China and India aren't going to curtail CO2 emissions, so ... ? Why are the oil and coal industries bad and greedy? I'll never understand that view. Cheap energy saves lives, boosts prosperity,; it's a good thing. if you said OPEC was greedy, then I'd agree. I am confident that the future will find higher efficiency solar power alternatives. Then we can just run the power plants at night. At least until we have the global power grid online. Or there's always cold fusion. Sustainable is good. I'm all for it. Funny how farmers are getting back to sustainable agricultural methods that were common in the days of ox, mule, and horse powered cultivation. Makes me want to be a vegetable or fruit farmer.  (Message edited by blake on October 30, 2011) | ||
| Gregtonn |
One more thing to consider before we say the oil industry should be shut down. If we are able to completely replace oil as an energy source where do we get many (most) of our plastics? Just look around and tell me if you could live without plastics. A century or more ago the answer may have been yes. Today? No. G | ||
| Whatever |
Who is saying the oil industry should be shut down? My only point about the comments about the Native Alaskan situation was that they should be able to choose whatever they want, and should have the ability to choose a subsistence lifestyle if that is what they want to continue. You can't last much more than five weeks let alone five years (as I did) working for the tribes if you think you know what is best for them. Anyhow, I guess the review of 1.2 BILLION records on climate temperature is not enough for some people who like to deny that climate change is real. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-scienti fic-finding-that-settles-the-climate-change-debate /2011/03/01/gIQAd6QfDM_story.html | ||
| Gregtonn |
"I think we should definitely develop those oil fields because in 50 years when nuclear/solar or "whatever" energy takes over... we can totally shut them down 100%." Short term memory problems? G | ||
| Kenm123t |
Char you finally get it We are tired of some one from the government telling us whats good for us! The Proper role is we tell the government what is good for it if it wants to be re elected. FACT government personel either elected or hire are EMPLOYEES. Government employment is not a path to be a ruler or life time positions. The green industry has committed suicide with fraudualant claims and by pushing thier products by government tax rebates grants etc. If green project were really viable they would not need government support! IF they worked for the general public they would sell like iPHONES PADS and PODs. Dont start the oil companies stopped it BS who ever sells the energy source of the future would do it in a sec to be the sole source for its patent run. The oil companies have for the most part given up on solar etc stating WE cant make money at this. Sad really Shell and BP had great inverters etc. I build solar systems Hot water for large hotels retreat centers mostly with a few PV wind systems. Sold to wealthy hunters for off grid man caves. | ||
| Whatever |
That isn't my post. | ||
| Whatever |
I am done here anyhow. Sorry for the thread hijack Rat. I am hoping to have clear roads during X-mas to ride down to Miami.  | ||
| Strokizator |
The old "the debate is over", huh? | ||
| Xdigitalx |
"I think we should definitely develop those oil fields because in 50 years when nuclear/solar or "whatever" energy takes over... we can totally shut them down 100%." meaning... we won't need the oil as much (after we fully develop alt-energy sources) and the fields in alaska or wherever the new one are put...could then be shut down letting the grass grow green again. Or not. | ||
| Psykick_machanik |
you would believe what "National Geograpic" shows? those jackasses are as bad as Greenpeace. (in referance to the ice cap recieding) I can tell you first hand thats KRAP! we were sent home early last year (summer) from the polar bear reasearch because the ice cap hadnt recieded at ALL. the bears were 100 miles out on the pack eating seals still. our chopper flew the entire Alaskan Artic coast, only saw 7 bears and the ice was still all there. I get so pissed with people taking some special interest groups opinion on something and reciting it as fact. Please oh please educate yourself on matters that your passionate about. Im more than happy to hear someones opioniion if its a factual, well thought out point. Being an Alaskan i hear all about Pebel mine (not even a mine), Drilling in ANWAR, timber harvest, and commercial fishing from folkes who's only info comes from TV, its biased and WRONG! thanks for listening to my rant and ignore the spelling errors. Alaskans for Global Warming, Bring IT! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Nice looking X1 in the profile pic Psykick! | ||
| Geforce |
I entirely support the safe removal, refining and transportation of oil/gas. I do not support the ultimatum view of "oil = bad, green = good". Green will be good when I can afford it, and it saves me some money. That's the only way it will ever work. Efficiency is a marvelous thing. On the subject of climate change... I'm not so sure we are the center of the issue. I'd agree that we contribute, but Earth and the rest of our solar system is warming. http://www.livescience.com/1349-sun-blamed-warming -earth-worlds.html Now, there is also speculation that our solar system is passing through a very faint nebula in our local cluster and the increased presence of gases is contributing to our sun's activities. I'm not sure, it's just speculation. I am more inclined to believe that it's a combination of many things... and that we do contribute to the issue BUT we are not the ONLY instigator. There's not much we can do at present until we have better solutions and a better understanding of how these cycles work and how technology can be refined to actually be useful. | ||
| Sifo |
Char, It's a shame you won't contribute more. The area of what increased CO2 will do to the oceans in intriguing to me at this point. It's one are of this subject that I see some potentially valid points to be made. The counter points are also quite good too and I haven't really seen either side able to address the other sides claims well. | ||
| Psykick_machanik |
thanks Reepicheep. havent ridden her for months. been up north then its been "Noah" raining here, and blowing 30-80. still waiting for the global warming to show up so i can ride more.  | ||
| Blake |
Char, >>> Anyhow, I guess the review of 1.2 BILLION records on climate temperature is not enough for some people who like to deny that climate change is real. Who is denying that climate changes?  I'm disappointed my questions are being ignored.  I have more; primarily, why is it more bad than good if the climate warms? it seems the alarmist only ever represent the negative consequences of a warmer climate. Does that reflect honesty? Not in my view. Greenland actually used to be much greener. Why is that a bad thing? Has not in general the climate been warming since the last ice-age, then the so-called mini-ice age such that glaciers have been retreating? Are we to expect the remnants of an ice age to remain for eternity? Or is it logical that they would diminish over time, and for some periods more rapidly than others? I think what is most missing from the discussion is simple honest reasoned debate. Why is that? Why won't anyone answer the simple questions? I think I know why. Fraud sucks. Look to poster child Al Gore for the prime example. The big money argument is much more applicable to the MASSIVE global gov't funding than that provided by big industry skeptics. The difference in magnitudes between the two is immense, yet the nearly negligible in comparison funding for skeptical research is that which is dismissed as being corrupted by money??? Huh??? The one common force on the planet that has wrought by far the majority of death, genocide, mass murder, oppression, and misery is powerful government. I just don't understand the willingness eagerness of some to supplicate to such a dangerous power. | ||
| Blake |
What the alarmists won't tell us is that a solution to an actual catastrophic rise in global temperature really isn't a difficult problem to solve. They just don't like the easy, simple, cost effective tactic to combat it, pumping particulates into the atmosphere. Maybe the band Kansas had it right? (Message edited by blake on October 31, 2011) |
