| Author | Message | ||
     Boney95 |
Found this on another forum of mine: "In the United States, "synthetic" oil is a marketing gimmick. Around 10 years ago, Castol started using hydrocracked group III in their "full synthetic" oil. Mobil sued them and lost. So now group III is allowed to be labeled full synthetic. Most major brands selling full synthetic, including Mobil 1, are in reality group III oils (highly refined dyno oil) blended with either or both group IV and group V base stocks. (group IV and group V are true synthetic molecules) The exception are the very high priced synthetic oils from companies like Redline, Maxima and Motul (specifically 300V) Those oils are the real deal. It's also why they cost $15 a quart. No oil for $5 a quart is really 100% synthetic. It's just economics. Motul 5100 is labeled semi-synthetic because it uses group III blended with group V (ester). That's because it's a European based company, and the laws are different there. In Europe, to be called full synth, the oil needs to actually be all group IV or V. However, Motul 5100 'semi synth' is just as synthetic as Mobil One or many other "full synth" oils sold in the US. Motul calls it semi, because it's not 100% ester like 300V. But actually a high quality group 3 blended with ester comes very close to a true full synth. Unless you're racing and banging it off the rev limiter for hours at a time, Motul 5100 is plenty good enough lubrication. Also Motul has patented additives to aid in positive gearbox actuation. It's why so many people report their bike shifts so nicely with it. Nobody should feel bad or "ripped off" because Motul 5100 is "only" semi-synthetic. Most other brands in the US advertised as "full" synthetic are in reality no better than Motul 5100. They are group IIIs blended with PAO (group IV) or esters (group V), just like 5100. As an anecdote, I don't think any other brand uses as high of an ester % in their blends as Motul. 5100 has a strong fruit smell. Stronger than some other expensive oils full synth, that are mostly PAO with a splash of ester. In terms of cost, ester is the most expensive synthetic to manufacture, more than PAO. Both cost more to make than group III highly refined dyno." My $18/liter Motorex better be 100% synt!! | ||
| Ducbsa |
What are the feedstocks for manufacturing the Group IV and V components? | ||
| Prowler |
That's interesting, as I had last read that Mobil 1 was in fact still an actual full synthetic oil as are the Amsoil products. Guess I'll have to look more into this. I know that my last few cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and recommend it at oil changes. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
none of it is actually synthesized in a laboratory. all lube oil that is commercially available starts off as crude oil as pumped outta the ground. then is cracked and refined to the specs of the customer. i have always had a hard time with the use of the word synthetic. to mean that means using hydrogen carbon oxygen atoms and creating from scratch molecules that are needed. not just re-organizing existing molecules. | ||
| Buellitup |
I had heard the same, and was told at a couple of car shows that Royal Purple was one of only two fully synthetic oils on the market. I forget the name of the other, but it wasn't Amsoil or Mobil 1. The blended ones were over 90% synthetic, but I really don't remember the percents anymore. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I've always been a bit skeptical with synth oils. I never had a doubt that it was good oil but at twice the cost, is it really twice as good? It all looks like black crap after 5000 miles anyways. | ||
| Hootowl |
"all lube oil that is commercially available starts off as crude oil as pumped outta the ground" That's true in Europe, but not in the US. | ||
| Fahren |
I'm not sure price is much of a determining factor any more (Dinosaur juice vs. syn). I just looked up HD Dino 20w50, and it's $7.50 a quart. Amsoil, from a genyoowine Badweb sponsor, is on special for $10. | ||
| Xl1200r |
but at twice the cost, is it really twice as good? Even if it's just as good, it's rated to last longer. I reckon that by running synth oil in my vehicles and changing it less frequently than if it were dino, I'm actually saving money. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Even if it's just as good, it's rated to last longer. I reckon that by running synth oil in my vehicles and changing it less frequently than if it were dino, I'm actually saving money. Not only that, but a good synthetic will give you better gas mileage. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
According to what I have read, Group III oils are synthetic blended with conventional oil. GroupIV is pure synthetic, and Group V is "other". In other words it doesn't fit neatly into the other four groups. I'm working on obtaining documentation from Amsoil so I can state here exactly what Amsoil is or isn't. | ||
| Blake |
Synth oil may be derived from crude oil, but not all synthetic oil is. It makes no difference to me how the the type of polymer long chain molecules are achieved. What should matter is the oil's performance, that it preclude the need for viscosity modifier additives to achieve the desired multi- viscosity performance. Those additives break down, thus one of the weaknesses of conventional oils, which ALL need them to achieve multi-vis performance. | ||
| Blake |
Indy, I think the claim of better gas mileage for synthetic oil is not supported by evidence. Most often when that is claimed, it is based on comparisons or tests where the synth oil being compared to the conventional oil, though the same exact SAE grade/weight, is in reality a bit less viscous. Oil viscosity is the only factor affecting fuel mileage that a motor oil contributes. What is nice is that the superior qualities of synthetic oils allow lower viscosities while still providing an excellent margin of safety and resistance to heat and stress induced oil breakdown. Amsoil dominates in that with their unbeatable protection against metal to metal contact wear, a major issue at startup for any bearings. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Blake; You are right, I should not state that without some proof to back it up. | ||
| Blake |
Synthetic oil was originally developed for mass production by the Germans. They needed lubricant but oil was in short supply. | ||
| Hootowl |
The US developed synthetic rubber in WW2 for the same reason. Japan had conquered all the places in the world where the rubber tree grew. | ||
| Sifo |
What should matter is the oil's performance Exactly! I found the independent test that used to show up in these threads very interesting. Amsoil and a couple of others consistently did very well in each section of the testing. Honestly I was surprised how well HD syn did in most of the sections of the test considering it's a synthetic blend. There is a point of diminishing returns in quality. If you want to get the oil tested and extend the intervals you may get better returns on that quality though. Right after I went to Amsoil I was shocked at the increase in my mileage. Then I realized that the trip I was on had me in an area where I was able to get 100% gas instead of the 90% crap I get at home. When I got home again my mileage was indistinguishable from running HD sny. Maybe sophisticated measuring could tell a difference, but I couldn't based on the pump and a calculator. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
none of it is actually synthesized in a laboratory. all lube oil that is commercially available starts off as crude oil as pumped outta the ground. then is cracked and refined to the specs of the customer. Not correct. It all boils down to the level of performance, quality, and price-point required by the oil's manufacturer. Hydrocarbons can be mineral-based (crude oil) or molecularly synthesized from an animal or vegetable base (ethylene [PAO] and organic esters [POE]). A manufacturer decides what ingredients it will use in an oil, and the price is usually indicative of the quality of the components. Additionally, how a manufacturer stands behind their product and how much detailed information they provide about their product gives you an idea as to what they're putting in it. A little research can go a long way... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I pay for two things when I buy full synthetic... 1) Longer change intervals (in my case I choose to bump up from 2500 miles to 5000 miles) 2) A better "thermal margin" if something else is wrong with the bike, or if I get stuck idling in traffic on a hot day with no wind. Money well spent IMHO. The only non synthetic oil I ever fed any of my Buells was one change of 20w50 that I put in my new XB9SX at 100 miles on the odo... and only because I knew I was taking that oil out at 500 miles anyway, when I would start synthetic. The oil was only going to see 400 miles, so I got cheaper stuff. I can't even find Castrol full syn 20w50 around me anymore... and I was suspicious Castrol was gaming the system with it anyway. I'm not sure it was as good as other full syns. The only non motorcycle full syn 20w50 I can find these days is valvoline, and it's still $8 to $9 per quart. Amsoil makes a great product here in the USA. And most importantly, Amsoil is keeping my favorite racer riding my favorite bike in my favorite races. It'll be all I run from now on. In the Saab 9.3 (small turbo motor with oil fed turbo bearing) I use Rotella T and change it at 5000 miles. I haven't ponied up for full synthetic for that, as it isn't air cooled. If I wanted to do the oil analysis, I could probably get away with a full synthetic and a 10k oil change interval, but it's easier to just use the Rotella from wal-mart. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Not correct. It all boils down to the level of performance, quality, and price-point required by the oil's manufacturer. Hydrocarbons can be mineral-based (crude oil) or molecularly synthesized from an animal or vegetable base (ethylene [PAO] and organic esters [POE]). A manufacturer decides what ingredients it will use in an oil, and the price is usually indicative of the quality of the components. Additionally, how a manufacturer stands behind their product and how much detailed information they provide about their product gives you an idea as to what they're putting in it. A little research can go a long way... so what you're saying is that they do actually take the atoms and make their own molecules from scratch? even if it is based on veg oil or animal fat(oil) it's still started life as an oil. heavily modified sure actually synthesized? nope. i can research and have researched this topic heavily in the past and i know beyond a shadow of a doubt they are not actually making molecules from atoms. they are modifying existing molecules to something else. as you said 'a little research goes a long way' | ||
| Blake |
Your definition of "synthesize" appears to be incredibly narrow. I don't think it is accurate. | ||
| Hootowl |
No, they're not creating atoms. Yes, they are creating molecules. All you need are the right conditions and the proper catalyst. The company I work for makes PAO out of natural gas. When you're manipulating the benzene ring at that level, it is safe to say you're creating molecules. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Group III - this is a highly refined mineral oil made through a process called hydrocracking. In North America this group is considered a synthetic oil, for marketing purposes. and this is what gets sold here in the US to the mass market. excepting a few niche products that are actually IV or V. it really doesn't matter what's sold anywhere else because the US is where I live and ride etc. sorry i wasn't more clear before what i was referring to. yes there are truly synthesized oils out there however they don't really count as they are not what is readily and consistently available to the mass market here in the US. as the thread topic mentions 'fake synt oils' such as the group III's masquerading as full synthetics. knowing that i still use them mobil1 etc because even though by strict definitions they are not actually synthetic they are still better than II's or God forbid group I oils. sorry for the confusion i seemed to have caused | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
sorry for the confusion i seemed to have caused Not at all- these are good questions to discuss. even if it is based on veg oil or animal fat(oil) it's still started life as an oil. The point here is that the source molecules are being derived from something other than mineral hydrocarbons (crude oil). Yes, it's the basic building blocks of oil (whether animal or plant), but the claim of it all being derived from crude isn't correct. I too find this topic extremely interesting, and continue to learn new things about synthetic oils through research. I enjoy these discussions. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
gotcha and to me a very literal person just because it's not mineral oil doesn't make it synthetic. symantics i know but when dealing with a somewhat unknown(i.e. not a lubricity engineer) not twisting words like they do in marketing would be nice | ||
| Bads1 |
I learned a very lot off this site. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
it's been a fews years but i knew the site well | ||
| Court |
I just went . . . as little as I actually spend in terms of the "big picture" . . with the best oil Amsoil offers for the car.  With regards to motorcycles . . . I headed TOWARD Amsoil after meeting Jeremy (Amsoil Racing Manager) when they came on board with Erik Buell Racing. The final "push" for me was reading THIS. I'm a believer. | ||
| Noone1569 |
I'm with Court. I switched to AMSOIL because of the following: 1. Sponsorship of Erik Buell Racing 2. Reading that White Paper Court linked 3. Anecdotal Evidence from other users. Hell, now I even sell the stuff!. Indy_Bueller is your man for AMSOIL on badweb! | ||
| Court |
>>>"In the United States, "synthetic" oil is a marketing gimmick. So are Victoria Secret bras. | ||
| Hootowl |
I know Victoria's Secret. She's a slut. Shhh. | ||
| Fahren |
Wait, are we talkin' Victoria's Secret? shouldn't that go in the "Motorboat" thread? ;- ) |
