| Author | Message | ||
     Tankhead |
DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE NOT INTO THIS TYPE OF THING> I am not asking for the reader to say whose right or wrong. That is not why I am posting. I expect calm nonthreatening behavior if you can not or will not then please do not post. I have recently been introduced to this web site by a fellow Bad Webber and I wanted to try my best to read through with an open mind. Now before a discussion is to take place let me very clear: I am not interested in having this be a brawl. I spent some time reading the history and many of the questions and answers that people have posted on there. I went with an open mind trying to educate myself. I am interested in discussing the point that if a web site is promoted to answer questions that a person might have about "Is there a God" they would leave hopefully feeling fulfilled. I left with more questions than before I visited the site. I am having a very difficult time understanding. If I am not a person who believes in the concept of Faith then am I out of the game before I start? Or can there be proof besides accepting faith as proof? The latter is what I went to that site looking for. Here are examples of the answers. Question: "Does God exist? Is there evidence for the existence of God?" Answer: The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29). This answer to me (Quoting scripture and then posting the author's opinion of the scripture) is very difficult to understand. Why would God make things extremely difficult for us on the planet earth by having us believe in the FAITH that he exists if he could easily prove it at any time? Wouldn't that have eliminated the very hostile wars throughout history and would allow all people to live in peace? Why have a concept called faith if (He) could just have proven (Himself) to be a real entity? One conceptual question. Here is another answer and another quote from the website: In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God. This concept is extremely hard for me to even begin to argue against and doesn't sound logical to me. Does this mean that if one can conceive something that we would call God then it exists (proof) no questions asked? And if he did not exist then you contradict yourself in your belief in God? Or if you pose that there is no God then you really don't understand the concept of god. That concept reminds me of Orwell's 1984 doublespeak which does not lend to logic. Not trying to be offensive but I believe that this example (Orwell) lets the reader understand where I (my brain) am/is in this. Sort of like saying there absolutely is a God whether you like it or not. A human being says so based on scripture that other human beings wrote. If you do not believe in God then you don't have the faith or ability to believe? You lose before you started? Is this what believers believe? I am trying to understand if that is the correct translation of what someone of faith believes. Please help me understand these concepts and if in the end, I don't agree or comprehend it then I reserve the right to maybe not understand after all. And I am OK with that and pass no judgement. And again lets try really hard to keep this civil. I am not trolling, I am being sincere in my quest to learn other peoples' philosophical concepts. This is not a debate. I just would like someone who believes to clarify these points. Thanks. | ||
| Sifo |
It seems to me that you are looking for proof where faith is required. Faith is required if you believe God exists, or doesn't exist. While there is no absolute proof either way, I notice that my discussion of DNA still goes unanswered. It leaves you with the creation by natural forces theory with a huge hole right in the middle of it, and the creation by ID theory fitting very well. What does an intelligent person do in this situation? | ||
| Court |
I had someone once tell me "I don't believe in anything I can't see". Seemed rational. I sat him in a chair before a wall outlet . . . handed him 2 butter knives and asked "do you believe in electricity?" Faith is the ability to see over a horizon. I have it. Some do, some don't. Matters not to me. What does bother me . . . . are folks who seek to affirm their own lack of self esteem by continually trying to question the judgments and beliefs I've formed. | ||
| Etennuly |
If you are going on a motorcycle board for answers to questions like yours, perhaps your thinking is flawed. It seems more like you are looking for a majority opinion to fit what you are thinking. IMHO if you come away with more questions than answers you actually got a fair shake. If your desire is to come away with one good answer you may need go to a particular house of religion. But stay with that one and don't look up, or confusion will likely again infuse itself into your path of thought or belief. "Help me I need to know what to believe."  A perfect position to meet a snake oil salesman. Do not answer your door on Saturday mornings! To know what you know, feel what you feel, and believe what you believe, look inside yourself. Asking a fairly large group of like minded Buell riders(like minded about Buells), who vary greatly in what they believe and how they conduct the rest of their lives, for an opinion on God will result in perpetuating your quandary. That will not be an answer. If you desire to read and believe in the Bible why would you want to contaminate your belief by reading or listening to so many other people's interpretation of it? Perhaps learn from where it comes, learn the language of those who wrote it. Go read it for more pure understanding of what they wrote and why, verses listening to what a bunch of other folks will sell you information on what they believe it says. Oh, and no one has ever asked for clarity and purity in a thread and received it! That is a taunt that becomes a challenge to be played! Lots of (us) jokers out in internet land! Sorry. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Great post Court! Very precise observation of the previous threads | ||
| Kenm123t |
+1 Vern | ||
| Blake |
Chris, You seem to know more about the ontological argument than I do. It's not something with which I'm familiar. I know that Dr. Craig has some discussions of the argument on his site, www.reasonablefaith.org. If what he presents doesn't answer your question, then I'd bet he would if you wrote him. He has a question of the week archive with hundreds of such commentaries. I know little about the topical web site, and so cannot endorse or promote it. I only know that it accurately answers the question of the gnostic gospels. Other than that, I have no idea. | ||
| Budgolf |
http://gracethrufaith.com/ | ||
| Moxnix |
Judeo-Christianity fulfills man's search for meaning in good times and bad. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have many spiritual moments on the back of a motorcycle careening down what ever road, goat trail or hill that caught my attention Does God exist What is Love How do you measure Quality Where is Happiness Why does all of the randomness seem to actually work well together ? I will profess that I have never found the answers - but the journey was always better on the back of a bike. | ||
| Whistler |
Tank, thanks. Please let me share, from the the 11th chapter of Hebrews you quoted, here are the first three verses, 11:1-3 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. So then about faith, Romans 10:17 - Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Then, John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And then, John 3:16-21 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict; Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been through God. And then, Romans 8:1-4 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. The remainder of that chapter of Romans is good reading. For me, that relationship with Christ, that faith, is as personal as it gets. It is an undeserved and paid for gift. I am very grateful. | ||
| Tankhead |
Thank you for answering everyone. I appreciate it. Blake: Thanks for the web site. I will check that out. I don't know anything about the ontological argument either other than what I posted. Especially when it is served as logical. Very confusing.  but one of the basis for my 2 questions none the less. Sifo: your quote: Faith is required if you believe God exists, or doesn't exist. I think the second part of this quote is the exact point of my question. WHAT? Second, I honestly can not give a response to your request because I have not had a chance to read anything related to it. Rode the Uly all day yesterday (for the most part) and went to a wine festival with my wife in our Spyder (Toyota not Can Am)today. I doubt highly that if the intellectuals in our world have no answer then I will not either. But I will definitely check it out and either have more questions or form an opinion. Etenully: Your quotes:If you are going on a motorcycle board for answers to questions like yours, perhaps your thinking is flawed. It seems more like you are looking for a majority opinion to fit what you are thinking. I already know what I believe so my thinking, in your context, is not flawed at all, I have no interest in having anyone think what I am thinking. I thought I was very clear, I wanted to know how someone looking for answers about "Does God exist on that web site that was referred to me could walk away more informed and grasp the concepts of why. I originally was going to post on that website (it is about answering questions after all) but I thought it might be considered offensive, and I did not want to be offensive to an obviously pro god site. Another quote by you: If your desire is to come away with one good answer you may need go to a particular house of religion. But stay with that one and don't look up, or confusion will likely again infuse itself into your path of thought or belief. "Help me I need to know what to believe." A perfect position to meet a snake oil salesman. Do not answer your door on Saturday mornings! I thought I was clear about the personal attacks. Oh well. I actually enjoy the visits from the Jahovahs boys (if that is who you were referring too with the snake oil. We usually have a good five minutes discussing their beliefs vs. mine and we agree to disagree. I thank them for their time, I tell them I am Happy that they have found something that they believe in, and wish them well. I have sat many a night during passover for a Seder meal at one of my best friend's house. Heck, my 8th grade year at my Catholic school we actually prepared a Seder meal and invited some of the local Jewish clergy to join us. I have read about the Tao (incredibly strong influence), Nietzche, Aristotle, Ayn Rand 's Objectivism (wonderful but realize Utopia can only exist if everyone is on the same page) Native American ways, etc. Spent the Easter Break in Seville Spain, Crying like a baby at 12:05 AM in the Cathedral Easter Sunday and all it's glory UNBELIEVABLE WHAT MAN CAN DO NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON.BEAUTIFUL BEYOND COMPARE, no matter what the history (feel free to do that history and in Rhonda (the bridge)for that matter, was there too. Hugged the very religious like they were family after sharing tappas and flemenco and a night of drinking Rioja till the very early morning. 800 miles in southern Spain on a BMW GS1200 during easter week 2011) Another Quote by you: Asking a fairly large group of like minded Buell riders(like minded about Buells), who vary greatly in what they believe and how they conduct the rest of their lives, for an opinion on God will result in perpetuating your quandary. That will not be an answer. Like I said, I was going to post on the above said website but well ya know already. More quotes by you: If you desire to read and believe in the Bible why would you want to contaminate your belief by reading or listening to so many other people's interpretation of it? Perhaps learn from where it comes, learn the language of those who wrote it. Go read it for more pure understanding of what they wrote and why, verses listening to what a bunch of other folks will sell you information on what they believe it says. Oh, and no one has ever asked for clarity and purity in a thread and received it! That is a taunt that becomes a challenge to be played! Lots of (us) jokers out in internet land! Sorry. Well I'm so sorry you think my point is futile. I absolutely do not believe in the bible. I absolutely do not think I would be contaminating anything by asking those that believe what is the answer to the questions. I am interested in the answer for my own knowledge with no judgement or ridicule. My other posts on the similar topics were to get people to think by encouraging words. For some reason, I was misunderstood and the the onslaught happened and for that I feel bad. Court: Thanks again for being the one who's ride report convinced me to buy my first Buell City_X. And also for sending me the T-shirt for escorting the guys of Queensryche to the AC show. You are a class act and I appreciate that about you. No disrespect to anyone. Sorry 'bout the spelling errors, too lazy and type too fast for my brain. Just asking questions. If you have nothing to add don't post. Thanks | ||
| Tankhead |
Whistler!!!!!!!!! You, my friend, are brilliant. I posted my post while you posted yours so I overshot yours, please take nothing I posted, About you. You were not on here yet and I thank you for your most accepted honesty. I accept your answer as something you believe, am most happy for you and wish you the absolute best in life. Thanks | ||
| Danger_dave |
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| Slaughter |
Faith is certainly required if God is to exist or to NOT exist. Faithless people call themselves agnostic. | ||
| Etennuly |
My apologies if my thoughts were conceived as a personal attack or for construing a brawl. Not my intent. It seems in Whistler's answer you found what you were looking for. The folks that do the Saturday morning visits here go well beyond the Jehovah's Witnesses, we also get Mormons, Baptists of all kinds and others. I know many people in many religions. I have listened and conversed with them on many occasions. I too wish them well and truly do hope their finding of salvation is what works for them. As I do you. I originally was going to post on that website (it is about answering questions after all) but I thought it might be considered offensive, and I did not want to be offensive to an obviously pro god site. I don't believe your question futile, or your need for an answer. I was surprised that given your looking around here that you would put so serious of a spin on a thread on a motorcycle board. I am puzzled that you were afraid to ask them a question pertaining to their specialty on their site because you may offend them. Does it seem like they might promote feelings of fear for asking a question that might be out of their bounds? I absolutely do not believe in the bible. Can you clarify this?  To quote me:Oh, and no one has ever asked for clarity and purity in a thread and received it! That is a taunt that becomes a challenge to be played! Lots of (us) jokers out in internet land! Sorry. I was going to delete that after I wrote it because it may get construed, but I got distracted, again as stated in the quote, sorry. The reason I wrote that was joke. In so many threads the answer someone is looking for can be answered by one person in one line. But answers, being from opinion and fact, come in all colors. So many people get slammed on that request to be so serious or limited just because of fun. It was not meant to hurt your feelings, it just happens as a matter of conversation to lighten such a serious mood. With all of the negative going on in the World staving off humor seems like the next step closer to doom(personal, religious, or of the Earth and Universe). Try starting a thread here that says "I don't want to hear about teflon tape or okra, just answer my question". If you truly got what you wanted in your quest for a pure answer without a glimmer of other thought or opinion, and that was done on every thread on BadWeB, well there would not be much of a BadWeB. People seem to come here to find something beyond quotes from books. Probably why myself and others have not been banned for trying to have a little fun. It is just the internet.   As I stated in another thread "WE NEED NEW MOTORCYCLES TO BRAND ABOUT!  | ||
| Tankhead |
If you truly got what you wanted in your quest for a pure answer without a glimmer of other thought or opinion, and that was done on every thread on BadWeB, well there would not be much of a BadWeB. People seem to come here to find something beyond quotes from books. Probably why myself and others have not been banned for trying to have a little fun. I did not say I agreed at all with Whistler. As a matter of fact, I could not disagree more with him but he provided his "proof" according to what he believed. He answered the question according to what he believes and I dig that about him. I am asking the question TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE AS FACT AND THE PROOF THAT GOES WITH THE QUESTIONS POSTED ABOVE. I am trying to understand the psychology and logic of those statements above. Again this is not about what I believe (I know my beliefs and A-OK with them) just curious about the questions posed above. You offered no answer other than trying to offer me guidance about me finding my faith or whatever. Again, thank you but you did not understand the premise. No problem. I guess I should have just posted it on the above said web site but I figured that so many here have their differing opinions that I would get many possible answers. Thanks anyway.... back to Big Bad and Dirty. (Message edited by tankhead on September 19, 2011) | ||
| Ducxl |
It's a shame that religion has taken a big kick in the B@lls thanks to the Badweb. I see quotes about coming to a Buell Motorcycle website looking for answers and such. And it ALL began with the unfortunate thread titled "Atheists AFRAID" AFRAID!!?? REALLY!!?? HOW'S THAT FOR BAITING/TROLLING!!! | ||
| Notpurples2 |
DangerDave, good one.  Duc, It's not trolling when Blake does it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I believe the question of free will answers the question of faith. If you could see God, if God appeared in the physical world, would you have the free will to choose to believe or not? Only a fool would choose not to believe and follow that which he can see with his own eyes. I don't see very many heated debates over the color of the sky. Free will is the singular requirement of man. As much as those who minimize the role of faith and Christianity would believe that God is controlling and overbearing, the truth is that God has gone to great lengths to create and protect free will. My journey started with a very simple question: "Can God be surprised?" If God is all knowing and has perfect knowledge of time from beginning to end, the fall of man COULD NOT have been a surprise. If God KNEW that man would reject his authority, then man was created with the full knowledge that free will would bring about rejection. Not only that, but God had to create the instrument of man's rejection. Without the tree of knowledge in the Genesis narrative, man couln't have had the option to choose to obey or to disobey God's authority. God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. Just having the tree and the choice wasn't enough, though. There had to be a catalyst. Enter Satan who tempted man to reject God's authority. Without Satan, there likely would have been no rejection. With the premise that God cannot be surprised, God KNEW that Satan would reject his authority and rebel against God. Therefore, Satan was a necessary component to insure man's free will. Satan is part of a fallen system. The evil that exists, the chaos, the sickness, the depravity, is Satan's. The world has been given to him. God doesn't make bad things happen. Bad things are simply part of the big picture through which God chooses to interact. How can one choose good over evil if evil doesn't exist? In order for free will to exist and for man to choose God, free will MUST be. Were there no tree of knowledge, where there no Satan, man would still be in the Garden of Eden but a slave to God without choice or option. Lastly, God created man knowing that most would reject Him. God was willing to see many reject him in order to have some who believe and follow through free choice. The solution to the evil and plight of a fallen man was present from the beginning, from before the creation of man. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -John 1:1 The greek translation for "word" is logos from which we get logic. This term is also is applied to Christ. In essence, Christ existed from the beginning as the solution to the "problem" that was to come, how does man regain connection with God. | ||
| Slaughter |
Arrr 'tis PROOF of our having been touched by his noodly appendages.  | ||
| Court |
You are very welcome and I too appreciate your coming through whenever help was needed. I enjoy, to a degree, there types of threads. To me, it's less about the instant topic and it is a studying in how folks, holding divergent views, discuss them. My goal is not so much to sway anyone to my way of thinking. My thoughts, values and faith has been formed over the years by my personal experiences and perspectives. I appreciate that others will be formed by their perspectives and are unlikely to align in every way with mine. Frankly, that's what makes life interesting. I look for the people in my world to expand my horizons, not affirm them. You can imagine, being on the staff at Columbia, that I'm pretty well accustomed to being in groups where I'm a damn small minority. We hold Campus Conservatives meetings in a phone booth. Badweb is interesting. It spans the globe and there are some very smart folks here. After 17 years of doing the Buell internet gig . . I've learned to sort them out. Court | ||
| Pwnzor |
Out of all the people who visit me, I like the Mormons the best... They'll hang out and chat with you about anything. JW's and Baptists tend to try and steer the conversation too much for me... I figure, if you're standing on my property, I get to pick the topic at least half the time. | ||
| Union_man |
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| Ft_bstrd |
My mother retired in June from the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission: http://erlc.com/ My father is an ordained minister and retired after 35 years of service from Lifeway. I am "a preacher's kid". This means I have grown up since birth in the church and exposed to biblical teachings. It also means that as preacher's kid I have seen every weakness someone who is considered a Christian can have. My parents were not perfect. Great people. Just not perfect. Seeing these weaknesses causes me to distrust faith statements, religious doctrine, and dogma. I accept NOTHING on face value and must personally test and try each concept myself. I seek to try to find the other side of the story, the counterpoint. This isn't a completed process. I continue daily to seek and grow. One of the greatest failures of understanding among atheists is to view Christianity as static, inert. Nothing could be further from the truth. I disagree with aggressive evangelism. I'm pretty sure the great commission didn't include an "I accost you in the name of Christ" edict. What makes Mormons and JW unique is that their religion requires certain acts in order to attain heaven. Theirs is a works based religion. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Faith is following the fastest line into that blind corner at 9/10ths...believing that no one fell ahead of you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
1) Why won't God heal amputees? Sometimes the "bad" things that happen to us are to bring us closer to God through the experience. Sometimes the "bad" things allow us to have a common perspective with someone else. If you were a new amputee, who would you believe could relate to you better, someone who isn't an amputee or someone who is? 2)Why are there so many starving people in the world? People suffer and die as a result of a fallen world. Evil does exist. Many in Africa are starving because of the evil and corruption. The question is what are YOU doing to bring aid. We have an opportunity to be God on earth to these people. What do I have to offer to someone who has everything? 3)Why does God demand the death of so many people in the Bible? The punishments were established in response to a set of rules. The crimes seem minor by today's standards and the punishment unreasonable. Oddly, there are very few biblical accounts of mass executions of people due to working on Sunday. The laws established were to draw a line of distinction between the Israelites and the rest of humanity. What are the possible risks of choosing a woman not a virgin in ancient times? Disease? Sterility? Infertility? Infidelity? The punishment was meant to emphasize the importance of the law being followed. What good has been gained by breaking it? 4)Why does the bible contain so much non-scientific nonsense? Do writings 3000+ years old contain much scientific sense? Considering humans are composed of about $200 of common elements, a handful of dust sounds about right. 5)Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? God isn't. It was a fact of the time the bible was written, but it wasn't plan A. Do remember that the entire Israelite people were at one time slaves. 6)Why do bad things happen to good people? Bad things happen to both good and bad people. The common experience allows others who have undergone similar experience to console and those currently going through the experience. If my life is perfect, how can I relate to you who's life isn't? 7)Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the bible leave behind any evidence? See two posts back. Evidence removes free will. 8)How do you explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? His appearance isn't necessary. 9)Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? It was symbolic not actual ingestion of flesh and blood. The communion table in my church growing up had the words "This do in rememberance of me". Seems pretty self explanatory. 10)Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? "Among the population segments with the lowest likelihood of having been divorced subsequent to marriage are Catholics (28%), evangelicals (26%), upscale adults (22%), Asians (20%) and those who deem themselves to be conservative on social and political matters (28%)." "Thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been married and subsequently divorced. However, the three-point difference from the national average was within the range of sampling error, suggesting that their likelihood of experiencing a dissolved marriage is the same as that of the population at-large. A representative from Barna also pointed out the atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments." http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/15-famil ykids/42-new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-relea sed Additionally, people are fallible regardless of whether atheist or Christian. It's not a reflection on God but a reflection on people. | ||
| Slaughter |
That is denial masquerading as faith. | ||
| Blake |
AKA "gambling." Good answering Jeremy. Chris, >>> I did not say I agreed at all with Whistler. Neither did anyone else say that you did.  >>> he provided his "proof" I think he offered his answer/explanation, to your question. (Message edited by Blake on September 19, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Greg (Ducx1), If I'm recalling accurately, that may be the 2nd ever god or religion-related thread I've ever instigated here on BadWeB. I basically expressed the sentiments of Dr. Harris (atheist) who was quoted in the subject article saying that William Craig is the one Christian philosopher who has put the fear of god into so many of his fellow atheists. No reason to muck up Chris' thread here. Curtis, I think you confuse casting bait with trolling. One seeks engagement and thoughtful discussion, while the other is just about self-indulgent entertainment at the expense of others. Nothing wrong with intellectually provocative topics. |
