| Author | Message | ||
     Superdavetfft |
Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller) recently released a book entitled 'God, NO!' which is definitely worth a look. His opening point is fairly simple 'If 'god' told you to kill your kid would you do it?' If you said no then you're already an atheist, you've just demonstrated that morality and love are more important than your faith. If you said yes... well ... seek help please... | ||
| Whatever |
Read 'Under the Banner of Heaven'... Dan Lafferty killed a woman and her infant because his so called God told him to do it... | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Yikes... truly scary... "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. " - Steven Weinberg ------------------------------ ...just like that couple that beat the 7 year old daughter to DEATH just to 'bring up a child' in 'gods way'... sad... imagine the hell that poor girl went through. Beaten for SEVEN HOURS by the people who are supposed to be the very ones who should protect her. Sick... sad... hopefully the next generation will have a more open mind and start freeing themselves for religious superstition... | ||
| Ourdee |
Only answer I can come up with right now; "He didn't, and I ain't". How do you know to whom the voice belongs that you hear? Is Satanism just serving yourself instead of serving God? | ||
| Whatever |
Most of these wack jobs are paranoid schizophrenics plain and simple... in the case of Lafferty, he was prosecuted as sane, because apparently bizzare orders from "God" are the norm in fundamentalist Mormon culture... | ||
| Kenm123t |
 | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Its not the gun it's the person pulling the trigger. | ||
| Whatever |
The guy (Lafferty) also had a sign taped to his butt at trial saying "Do Not Enter" because he thought the angel Moroni was trying to inhabit him by way of his anal cavity... Not too sure how exactly the judge ruled him competent to stand trial, but he did. | ||
| Whatever |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_H eaven | ||
| Blake |
'If 'god' told you to kill your kid would you do it?' If you said no then you're already an atheist, you've just demonstrated that morality and love are more important than your faith. It takes a lot less than morality or love for believers to disobey god's laws. We do it all the time. Thus the conclusion is proved false. If you said yes... well ... seek help please... Really? If the creator of the universe, the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of everything and giver of life appeared to you and told you personally to do something, anything, you'd disobey? Inadequate perspective leads to silly conclusions. Ask Abraham. | ||
| Blake |
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. " Absent god, there is no basis for good or evil, nothing matters one way or the other, we all just die and the universe expands and cools into icy darkness, for eternity. | ||
| Blake |
That we recognize objective morals, that good and evil do indeed exist is proof that god exists. | ||
| Blake |
What exactly was the point from Penn that you find interesting? I have a similar thought experiment for you: If god revealed himself to you tomorrow, confirmed to you that Jesus was who he said he was and that what he taught was truth, that we do indeed have an immortal soul, how would that affect you? (Message edited by blake on September 14, 2011) | ||
| Nik |
Absent god, there is no basis for good or evil, nothing matters one way or the other, we all just die and the universe expands and cools into icy darkness, for eternity. Absent Good and Evil there is no basis for God. If one holds that their life has value, simply because they exist, and they act in such as a way as to increase that value in rational self interest, then there's no need for external validation from God or anyone else; and objective morals exist absent any deity. And we do all just die and the universe expands and cools into icy darkness for eternity. That doesn't change the fact that I am here now, and sure going to make the most of it. | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Blake please confirm/clarify this, you really didn't mean this the way it reads right? " Really? If the creator of the universe, the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of everything and giver of life appeared to you and told you personally to do something, anything, you'd disobey? " It reads as if you WOULD kill your own CHILD if 'god' told you to... by inferring that it would be crazy for one to disobey it appears that you would obey, and without hesitation. Do you realize what you're saying? You're saying you would kill your REAL child because you heard a voice in your head (ie 'god')???? That would put you in the exact same category as the child beaters mentioned previously in the thread.... | ||
| Superdavetfft |
oh and to your question Blake, if a 'god' showed up to me the first thing I'd ask is 'prove it'... I'd figure 'god' could whip up a nice big long track, a perfect day, a fleet of new Buells and a couple Ferrari's to play with (oh and at least a dozen hotties to wash the bikes when i get done running them) anybody that could do that? well heck ya i'd probably believe it oh then when we get done with that i'd ask why 'god' let humans build the church. he'd have to be pretty pissed off at the churches given how they treat other people. From the earliest days of persecution to todays molestations etc etc... so yes i'm open minded to the idea of a 'god', but as i mentioned i'm quite certain there isn't due to the evidence available at this time... | ||
| Trojan |
Really? If the creator of the universe, the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of everything and giver of life appeared to you and told you personally to do something, anything, you'd disobey? I'd ask for his/her (or is it their?) ID first (you can never be too careful with all these deities), then would stop drinking and sell my story immediately! But I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen  If god revealed himself to you tomorrow, confirmed to you that Jesus was who he said he was and that what he taught was truth, that we do indeed have an immortal soul, how would that affect you? But he won't will he  That is why religion doesn't work. That we recognize objective morals, that good and evil do indeed exist is proof that god exists No it isn't. It is merely proof that we can think for ourselves and have a choice in what we do. (Message edited by trojan on September 15, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. This is absolutely false. Any figure of authority can get good people to do evil things. It happens all the time. Examples can be found in Government, schools, unions, police, parents, gangs, social cliques, etc. You are now changing your original statement to try to pin Blake as being evil. Is the question if God told us, or just voices in our head? | ||
| Whatever |
If god does not exist, but KARMA is the law of nature... what we do to each other in the name of 'religion' will result in us all all coming back in our next life as cockroaches that survived the nuclear winter... I do not think that a personification of a diety that tells us what to do is neccessary to live life right. A beating heart that can feel sure helps. I find it really bizzare to believe the entire Eastern population of the world is wrong. | ||
| Sifo |
A beating heart that can feel sure helps. And yet you are in favor of legally stopping beating hearts. Odd. | ||
| Whatever |
East Asia or Eastern Asia (the latter form preferred by the United Nations) is a subregion of Asia that can be defined in either geographical[3] or cultural[4] terms. Geographically and geo-politically, it covers about 12,000,000 km2 (4,600,000 sq mi), or about 28 percent of the Asian continent, about 15 percent bigger than the area of Europe. More than 1.5 billion people, about 38% of the population of Asia or 22% of all the people in the world, live in geographic East Asia, about twice Europe's population. Major religions include Buddhism (mostly Mahayana), Confucianism or Neo-Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion in China, Shinto in Japan, Shamanism in Korea, Mongolia and other indigenous populations of northern East Asia[7][8], and more recently Christianity[9] in South Korea. The Chinese Calendar is the root from which many other East Asian calendars are derived. (yes it is from wikipedia) | ||
| Whatever |
And you, are in favor of what? Shaming, judging, ostrasizing, villifying and name calling? How very "christian" of you. If you look into the laws of nature in eastern religion that is an impotent argument. | ||
| Sifo |
What exactly is an impotent argument? | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Sifo, ok so how would 'god' tell you if not a voice in your head? Would it be via an 'angel' (ie hallucination?)... Maybe a mermaid or unicorn? Point being is that if 'god' or whatever you believe to be 'god' told you to kill your child and you would, well frankly you're ill and need professional help. I'm HOPING Blake didn't mean it that way and he would NOT kill his own REAL child... yes I don't care for the person as an individual but I don't believe he's 'evil' as you put it... The point was to try to get the people who are on the fence about this religious nonsense to think for a second. We just condemned a person for beating their child because 'god' told them to yes? Well the point was if you're christian then you'd be obligated to kill your kid if 'god' said to. If you would not do this then that shows you have DOUBT about 'god' and are already partially atheistic. If you WOULD kill your child, then ... well what do you think that says about a person? What would that person consider 'god'? What if they saw an image in a door, or heard a 'voice' in the breeze, or hallucinated or was simply mentally ill? That person is capable, and willing to commit murder?!?! really? and you are ok with this? | ||
| Whatever |
It is exactly what you think it is, just like an organ that fails... it DOES NOT WORK. | ||
| Blks1l |
I thought we all started from something that crawled out of the ocean! Did I miss something? | ||
| Drkside79 |
This conversation will go nowhere. @ Super You knew where this would go shame on you. @ Blake You too knew where this would go why engage? @Blake/Super Lets clear this up If a voice in your head tells you to kill your kid seek treatment. If you are in the ACTUAL presence of God I would hope he would never ask such a thing but if he did GOOD LUCK with that decision. @ sifo and impotent argument would be what you just did knowing she meant important. however impotent means Lacking physical strength or vigor; weak. 2. Lacking in power, as to act effectively; helpless OH and good morning everybody! | ||
| Sifo |
I assume you know you are discussing a biblical story here. Then again I could be wrong in making that assumption. I can only go by the question that you poised though. If it was God, then it was God. That was the question you poised. Now you are saying it was just a voice in your head. I'm really not familiar with God appearing as a voice in peoples heads. Then again, I'll admit that I'm probably not the best of Biblical scholars. I can't say that I'm familiar with who we just condemned for beating their children. I don't know why you're bringing this up in a response to me. As for if a Christian would or wouldn't kill their child if instructed by God, and if they don't, that somehow makes them partially atheistic; your logic is simply flawed. If they knew for certain that it was God (even if they were wrong about that) they may do as they believe they were commanded. See your example about the child beater. Mental illness can be a terrible thing, but let us not confuse that with theism. OTOH, if a good Christian didn't do as commanded, couldn't it simply be that they don't really believe that it was God telling them to kill their child? Does that make you an atheist? I don't see how. Of course you are trying to paint a picture where a Christian can't examine what is going on and make a good decision as to if it really is an instruction from God, as you contend that an atheist would do. I'm just not buying into your premise. What if God (the real deal) told you (in a way that left no doubt that he was God) to do something. Would you do it, or would you just get psychiatric help? | ||
| Sifo |
It is exactly what you think it is, just like an organ that fails... it DOES NOT WORK. No sh!t Sherlock! I'm asking what argument you are claiming fails. Why would be nice too. | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Sifo; The point of the statement was that if a person would not kill their child then that demonstrates DOUBT on their part. That doubt is the first step away from superstition and a step toward reality. That doubt will help a person trapped by religious dogma to free themselves. BTW Atheists have always been around, in the old days they were actually called 'doubters'. It's that DOUBT that makes you part atheistic because you don't really believe 100% when it comes right down to it. As a single seed can grow into a tree and split a mountain, a single thought can grow into a new perspective and help a person flourish. *the condemnation was for those folks who beat their kid to death a few weeks ago. They beat this 7 year old girl for hours and she died from her wounds... they even took breaks during the beating so they could 'pray'... the point there is they did just what i'm talking about unfortunately... they killed their kid because they thought god wanted it... If 'god', a voice, image or anything told me to kill my kid? I'd head for the nearest hospital... and frankly if 'god' did exist and asked me to kill MY kid and i KNEW it was 'god', I'd tell him to f*ck off, give him the bird and say send me to hell because if you're the 'good guy' and you want the death of my kid, well I'd rather be with the losers in hell playing blackjack. |
