| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Almost as bad as Al Gore in avoiding public debate. Atheists avoid debate with Dr. William Craig | ||
| Racerx |
"Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who" | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Oddly enough, I spend quite a bit of time on the American Atheists FB page. Most of the arguments against the existence of God abe based on erroneous premises and abject misstatements of biblical writings. As an example, I have debated in circles regarding the mutual exclusivity of free will and God's omniscience. Atheists hold that if my actions are known before I make them, then I am not really acting under my own free will. My response is always the cookie principle: if you place a plate of cookies within reach of a two year old, you can be 99.999999999% certain the child is going to eat one. I didn't exert any control over the child. The child took the cookie of it's own free will. I just knew that the cookie was going to be eaten. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who" If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. -Sun Tzu | ||
| Darth_villar |
Argument "an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument." Debate "a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports." (Dictionary.com) The logic that a debate IS ALWAYS an argument is faulty. | ||
| 86129squids |
Hahahaa! Hey Jeremy, et al, how about some Tim O'Brien... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8n946rZiM That said, I was raised Baptist, but remain agnostic. It's been said that agnostics are cowards, but I contend that this human, mortal coil cannot truly perceive God. Moments of grace do happen. I try to do what Jesus would do, and live the best life a sinner can live. Funny that I think of it- my sister and one of her/our best friends are chaplains. I have just received a DVD recording of when this friend went on Larry King to debate with some OLD school Baptists as to why women couldn't be ordained as pastors within the Baptist church. Haven't watched it yet, but remember fondly when it first aired-will be watching it soon.  | ||
| Racerx |
By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near. You don't need the bible to prove there isn't a god. Look at the world around you. If you are so FRUCKING oblivious to that they cling to whatever retarded fairy tale you think makes death less scary and quit pushing it on others. We have lost many great civilizations cause of 'missions' converting Natives of South America because of scary stories of an angry god that will put them in hell hath they not believe in him!! | ||
| Strokizator |
Ahh, FB, I've had people tell me that God not only knows the child will take a cookie, but He knows which one. I have trouble seeing the "free will" part of that equation. It was explained that while God may not know which cookie you'll take, He already has a plan prepared for each possible selection. Right or wrong, I'm satisfied with that answer. You'll have to excuse my ignorance but I was raised a Roman Catholic and as you know, we're not Christians.  | ||
| Pwnzor |
ar·gu·ment - noun Definition of ARGUMENT 1 obsolete : an outward sign : indication 2 a : a reason given in proof or rebuttal b : discourse intended to persuade 3 a : the act or process of arguing : argumentation b : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion c : quarrel, disagreement 4: an abstract or summary especially of a literary work <an> 5: the subject matter especially of a literary work 6 a : one of the independent variables upon whose value that of a function depends b : a substantive (as the direct object of a transitive verb) that is required by a predicate in grammar | ||
| Pwnzor |
racerx:  | ||
| Pwnzor |
The thing I find amazing is the sheer hatred which spews from the mouths and boils in the minds of self-proclaimed athiests. | ||
| Blake |
Gay Marriage Lover (Racerx), >>> "Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who" As has already been stated, a debate, especially the academic/philosophical type in which Dr. Craig participates, are not emotional or personal in nature. They are aimed at seeking truth. >>> You don't need the bible to prove there isn't a god. Whether or not god exists may have nothing to do with the veracity or otherwise of the various books of the bible. Would be very interested to see you "prove there isn't a god." It's never been done before. >>> Look at the world around you. For many doing so provides some of the most compelling evidence for the existence of god. >>> If you are so FRUCKING oblivious to that they cling to whatever retarded fairy tale you think makes death less scary and quit pushing it on others. What does any particular religion have to do with whether or not god exists? Sounds to me like your point is more that religion is false, not that god is non-existent. >>> We have lost many great civilizations cause of 'missions' converting Natives of South America because of scary stories of an angry god that will put them in hell hath they not believe in him!! Even if that were true--I don't believe your odd characterization is at all accurate--it is in no way convincing evidence that god does not exist. Less emotion might be helpful. I can fully understand and even support the intense anger and distrust of religions. In fact I share it. Whenever men are involved, evil will threaten. I don't appreciate your hostility or mean-spirited insulting comments. This is no place for it. Also, please fill in your name in your user profile. You may include that you are a "gay marriage lover" elsewhere in your use profile if you feel you must. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
So what does this Billy Craig dude ride? I checked the article but I didn't see anything about bikes anywhere. (Message edited by notpurples2 on September 13, 2011) | ||
| Froggy |
Same can be said about Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, and pretty much every other group. It is human nature. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist protest a funeral, hold signs that say "god hates fags", or fly jumbo jets into buildings. I'm sure you will find some crazy hate filled nutjobs for every group if you looked hard enough. | ||
| Blake |
John (Strokiz), >>> I have trouble seeing the "free will" part of that equation. There seems to be a confusion between direction of behavior and prediction of behavior. One negates free will and shapes the future. The other interferes not at all with free will, but merely embodies knowledge of the future. That said, I'm not really sure what significance the issue holds. Are we or are we not free to do as we choose? I think we are. Therefore, we are indeed endowed with free will. Whether or not a god may know our will is another question I think. By its very nature god exists outside the limitation of space and time, so before we can argue the issue you raise, maybe we should attempt to grasp what such an existence might entail, omniscience for example? If one could be at all places at all times simultaneously, then how would one not be omniscient? It be the perfect open book test, with all reference books ever written at one's disposal and infinite time to finish. | ||
| Froggy |
Just because the collective believes it does not make it true. Everyone thought the world was flat at one point. | ||
| Blake |
Frank, "The thing I find amazing is the sheer hatred which spews from the mouths and boils in the minds of self-proclaimed athiests." >>> Same can be said about Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, and pretty much every other group. I agree. I'd also say that both statements are dead wrong in that they lump all into one pile. I know atheists who are among the most considerate people I know. >>> It is human nature. It is a flaw in human beings. I'm not sure it's human nature. In fact, for the most part, I think it is learned behavior. >>> I don't think I've ever seen an atheist protest a funeral, hold signs that say "god hates fags", or fly jumbo jets into buildings. Me neither. Men do some really evil despicable acts in the name of their religion(s). It's a sure sign of evil. In any case, unless such evil acts are reflected by the religious doctrines and witnessed in the behavior of a preponderance of the adherents to the faith, it reflects less on the particular religion than it does on the people behaving so despicably. It is tough to ignore the records of some of the most prominent atheists of history, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and friends. >>> I'm sure you will find some crazy hate filled nutjobs for every group if you looked hard enough. Agreed. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Just because the collective believes it, does not make it true. Agreed. It proves nothing. My rebuttal was in answer to the assertion that if I look around the world, I should somehow be convinced that god does not exist. for me, it is the opposite. >>> Everyone thought the world was flat at one point. I'm not so sure of that. But is doesn't really matter. | ||
| Boltrider |
Humans are inherently flawed, inherently fallible, inherently corruptible. If it's a question of nature vs. nurture, I pick nature. We've destroyed ourselves time and again throughout history, and I don't believe it will stop because it's in our nature (as a group) to kill each other. Religion, among other factors, are just tacked-on reasons for doing so. | ||
| Blake |
It's another issue, one I've not contemplated much, but interesting. I'm not sure what you mean by "inherently flawed." Not perfect? Okay, I can see that. >>> We've destroyed ourselves time and again throughout history...  I don't think we've destroyed ourselves. We've certainly fought wars. War is just conflict on a large scale. In some case war is just, the alternative to remain passive in the face of oppression and evil. That in itself is evil in my view. | ||
| Reducati |
Many rivers flow to the same ocean...weather you find God in a sunset, riding at 150mph, or in the love of your child or spouse, God is what make you truly at peace with your soul, no matter what or if you believe in any organized religions. ahhhhhh mennnnnnn! | ||
| Pwnzor |
Froggy, I didn't mean to offend you... I shouldn't have generalized about athiests... or anybody for that matter. I was just reacting to the gay troll. | ||
| Tankhead |
Maybe this is why Dawkins will not debate this guy or others anymore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EphcacBt-Mk&feature =related Some intersting coments about the debate between Craig and Dawkins under the video I posted. Hardly a comparison between Dawkins, science, and no agenda and Gore who like religion, is trying to prove something that they already believe in and skew science to try and prove their point. Science works the opposite without agenda. Its called the Scientific Method. (Message edited by tankhead on September 13, 2011) (Message edited by tankhead on September 13, 2011) | ||
| Sifo |
Ahh, FB, I've had people tell me that God not only knows the child will take a cookie, but He knows which one. I have trouble seeing the "free will" part of that equation. There's a scientific theory that time is a series of dimensions in time and that all dimensions, past, present and future exist at the same time. Assuming God can see into all these dimensions, then knowing which cookie was going to be taken is a piece of cake. Or is it that science is telling us we don't have free will? I don't think I've ever seen an atheist protest a funeral, hold signs that say "god hates fags", or fly jumbo jets into buildings. I won't pretend to know what's in the hearts of others, but the events you describe don't go with the religions that they claim to have been done for (flying jets into buildings, I'm still not sure about). I would guess that they are either falsely claiming a religion, or are very confused about what that religion is all about. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I've ever seen an atheist protest a funeral, hold signs that say "god hates fags", You haven't seen any Christians doing this either. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Everyone thought the world was flat at one point This is actually a complete falsehood. Neither Columbus nor his contemporaries believed the earth was flat. The Greeks didn't either. The myth that people of the 15th century believed that the earth was flat was popularized by 19th century atheists in order to use science in their war against religion. What better way to discredit religion than to attribute an obviously false idea to religious people! This myth can be traced directly to two very influential 19th century books: History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science by John William Draper (a physician) published in 1874 and History of the Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom by Andrew Dickson White (the first president of Cornell University) published in 1896. Both men used the flat-earth myth to help spread their arguments against religion. These books started the false and dangerous ideology that there is a war between science and religion, and that science is the only source of truth. The flat-earth myth did not appear in schoolbooks before 1870, but nearly all textbooks included it after 1880. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The fallability of man doesn't negate Christianity or God. It simply proves that even those who believe and follow God are still human. (Edited for Spelling mistake. I'm Fallable.) (Message edited by ft bstrd on September 13, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> I'm Fallable. Nice to meet you. I'm Blake. I'm fallible, just not as much as you are, today, in this particular discussion thread.  | ||
| Slaughter |
I'm a mixture of agnostic, insomniac and dyslexic... I lie awake all night wondering whether Dog really exists. | ||
| Tankhead |
Also your article's author did not finish the quote why Polly chose not to debate after all. "The President of the British Humanist Association has pulled out of debating renowned Christian philosopher William Lane Craig.Polly Toynbee, Guardian columnist and prominent critic of religion, readily agreed in April to debate Craig on the Existence of God but withdrew her involvement last week saying “I hadn’t realised the nature of Mr Lane Craig’s debating style, and having now looked at his previous performances, this is not my kind of forum”. Speaking about the debate style not content. Shame on Fox, spelling errors and all. I am watching them now and watch them 90% of the time. BTW |
