| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
>>> Like Bush and Cheney and Libby and Rove were better? Bush wasn't a pathological liar, community organizer, so yes, in just a measure of character, he was so much better than Obama, there is no comparison. There is no contest between the two on that. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
How much did fast and furious cost and who funded it? | ||
| Fahren |
Nice opinion, Blake. | ||
| Sifo |
But the cost of the Iraq war was ONLY 700 billion dollars... You've already lost the original argument when you start out this far off topic, but as long as you've brought it up... I'm less concerned about the cost, in dollars, of a war than if it's the right thing to be doing in the first place. I think removing Saddam was the right thing to do, as did the Clinton administration. Clinton just never had the justification to take action. Fair debate can be had on this point though. If you want to debate this, I hope you can keep your ethics consistent when it comes to BO and the numerous conflicts he has gotten involved in. As for the cost of the Iraq war, the total cost so far is a small fraction of the deficit that BO has imposed on us. Much of this has been in the name of jobs stimulus. The White House recently admitted that each job has cost us $278,000. Given that these jobs are largely for government paid projects they will disappears as soon as funding for them disappears. This is why you need the private sector to create jobs. Total failure at a cost of $666,000, almost the cost of freeing Iraq. And BO wants to do more of it. Double fail. So what is the cost of the wars BO has put us into? I doubt we will ever be given the costs, given that he can't even admit that he has taken us into any wars. I'm guessing that to the people getting blown up it seems like a war though. | ||
| Fahren |
Anyone who is still debating in terms of comparison/contrast of red v. blue is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT! And playing into the hands of those who would divide and conquer, control, and bleed us all dry. Look beyond the puppet politicians (left and right) to who is really pulling the strings. You really need not look farther than Wall Street and The City in London. Those who blame Obama - you are giving him altogether too much credit. Do you honestly believe that the USA is that much of a dictatorship that the chief executive can make that much of a difference? Or, put another way, if the prez can in fact make that much of a difference for good or for bad, isn't that too much power in his hands according to the system of checks and balances established in the Constitution? | ||
| Sifo |
Those who blame Obama - you are giving him altogether too much credit. Do you honestly believe that the USA is that much of a dictatorship that the chief executive can make that much of a difference? Or, put another way, if the prez can in fact make that much of a difference for good or for bad, isn't that too much power in his hands according to the system of checks and balances established in the Constitution? The system of checks and balances got way out of whack. It wasn't just the President. It was the President, along with a super-majority in Congress all with an extreme agenda. That almost did equal a dictatorship, at least for the first 2 years. Much damage has been done. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Fahren - Well said, in my opinion. Sifo - Maybe I missed something, but the joke after the Republicans broke the Democrats super-majority in Congress was that even with unchecked control of the legislative branch and the executive branch, the Democrats were unable to pass Obama's agenda. On another point, you are forgetting the most powerful branch - the Judiciary. It is and has been for some time controlled by the right. Of the Nine, three are liberal, five are conservatives, and one is a swing vote. | ||
| Jb2 |
I have a hard time understanding how this President constantly usurps the Constitution and no one calls him on it. The list is endless. Those who think these issues aren't red and blue don't have a clue. Johnson tried to create the "Great Society" with the introduction of welfare. He said it would lift people from poverty. We all know that's BS, it has created generations on the government dole. Food stamps usage has climbed 39% under the Obama administration. Not to mention the expansion of all the other entitlement programs. His car czar bragged that the auto bailouts were to protect the union and had nothing to do with saving the car companies. By bailing them out it negated the ability of the auto manufacturers to renegotiate union contracts. And the illegal alien problem... there again the emphasis is on "How can we increase our voting pool?" not "How can we protect our borders?" This will make all you hard working taxpayers a bit happier as you look at your paychecks today and the nearly 1/3 of it gone to taxes... http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Hundreds-line-up-fo r-Dallas-County-Rental-Vouchers-125555383.html ... watch the video. They are coming for your money because you owe them! It's probably the hardest they ever worked for a handout. (Message edited by jb2 on July 15, 2011) | ||
| Nobuell |
Jb2, That video is sad and symptomatic of the damage the welfare system has caused to the minds of the people. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Oliver Holmes one said: "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." I tend to agree with Justice Holmes. Even if every dollar of my taxes went to entitlement (which is not the case at all), I bet it costs less than paying a private security company to place guards outside my house to ensure that the hungry and poor do not feed themselves by looting my house and taking by xb12r! The difference between those who divide and those who don't has nothing to do with their positions but everything to do with the way they hold them. I believe what I believe, but I don't believe that those who disagree are idiots and I certainly don't believe that they aren't patriots. | ||
| Jb2 |
+1 Nobuell The Dems masquerade this as helping the unfortunate knowing full well if they ever try to take those entitlements away or limit them it would result in chaos. Ask anyone on the government dole what party they vote for. It's pretty obvious the real intent is to secure votes for the Democratic party. Those who think Pelosi and her band of liberals really care about the people are sadly mistaken. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I like term limits with capital retirement options..... but I am not a fan of lawyers - and well, legislators that muck about with them or are them selves one, even less so. EVERY time I hear about something out of DC, it is dunderheaded and idiotic. CPSI agency and the rules about not EATING mini bikes comes to mind immediately. Flipping stupid pedantic nanny morons. I really, truly wish Darwin and Murphy would get together and clean things up a bit. | ||
| Whatever |
So, just to play devil's advocate here, since manufacturing has gone overseas, and as a result, the last two companies I have worked for have layed me off... with both of them stating it was not related to my performance in the least... and that I collect unemployment and in the past have had extreme medical complications that have caused me to collect SSDI... and with that I still hate the fact that I have needed government help to survive... despite the fact I have been putting in 20 to 40 applications a week and have had at least one interview a month... in the last seven months that I have been unemployed... That makes me a Democrat? Wow... wonder why I am registred as an independent? Just to play devil's advocate, that is... for the sake of argument...  Oh, I also forgot to mention... I disagree with shipping BILLIONS of dollars overseas for the Iraq "reconstruction"... what a freakin joke... Blackwater, Halliburton/ KBR and others mopped up on "personal security", oh, and by the way, then they "outsourced" the jobs to South Americans, displacing the Americans who had those jobs in Iraq as "personal security guards"... which, by the way originally paid 700% of what our enlisted men and women made... When... guess what??? If we had armored up our borders and protected our own here at home and hired actual Americans for those jobs, gee I bet unemployment would be lower than it is today... It is a giant clusterf*ck because the consistent corporate greed that dug us into this hole... oh, but wait, we can use the unions and the public employees as whipping posts... while if I call Dell computers or Verizon I get some sweat shop hack in the Phillipines or India that I can't freakin understand... who HAS A JOB, albiet a job that is making them 10% of what an American would make... I think WE ALL have some of the blood on our hands... don't you??? The Wal Marts of the world have sold us all down the river... oh, but you say, I could apply to be a Walmart greeter... at $6.75 an hour? CAN YOU LIVE ON THAT??? OK, rant over...  | ||
| Whatever |
And before you go labeling me as some 'leftie peace nick' ask me what I think should have been done in the Middle East to solve the AQ problem... And, btw, I think ANYONE, who IS NOT an American citizen (and they gained citizenship by LEGAL means) should NOT be eligible for any assistance at all whatsoever... but hey, I am just an automatic Democrat by demographic information... what do I know??? (Message edited by Whatever on July 15, 2011) | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Whatever: Thanks for your post. It is exactly the kind of thing these folks who label anyone with opposing ideas need to hear. Remember that we are all (or most) Americans before we are liberals or conservatives. We all have the same objective: to see her prosper. We just disagree on how to get there. We've let the talking heads cause us to HATE our neighbors who have different views than us. It is pathetic. No one ever picked themselves up by their bootstraps while pointing fingers and both hands at others and bitching that it was someone elses fault that they are knocked down. Good on you for hitting the streets and submitting applications, and good luck with the search. I for one am glad that all of our taxes provided the support you needed in your time of need. (Message edited by honolulu_blue_esq on July 15, 2011) | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
City: I'm one of those lawyers you hate. I'm also one of those left of center guys you hate. But I bet we'd have a good time ripping up the dragon on the bikes and shooting the shit over a beer and bbq. Go figure. | ||
| Whatever |
I had a good time with Reindog... but now I am thinking him dropping my bike might have been a partisan move...  | ||
| Reindog |
Hmmm.....maybe. Your bike did drop to the right.  | ||
| Jb2 |
Char, I would never call you a Dem/Liberal but if you talk to anyone in the unions(manufacturing, public employees, service inds.) the majority will be Democrat. If you talk to anyone on welfare, section 8 housing, foodstamps, etc, etc you'll find a majority are Democrats. Kim and I nearly lost everything at one point early in our marriage. No jobs, bills mounting, deep recession going on. It was the early 80's with much the same environment as today. In my mind I didn't have a choice to take a handout or assistance. It was my duty as a husband and a father to provide for my family. I started repairing cars in a makeshift garage. I ran an ad and started hauling trash and mowing yards. I worked from before daylight until after dark every day of the week. About 9 months after losing my union job I got hired by a local bodyshop. I will NEVER work for a union again nor would I ever ask for help from the public. I want my Social Security money they TOOK from me so I can invest it and actually have a bigger chunk of money to retire on. Our government was set-up to provide laws, infrastructure and defense. Not a safety net for everyone who chooses to be on the public dole. I know a little about your situation and I believe a year from today you'll be gainfully employed and back where you want to be. There just ain't many folks like you that would ask for help when needed and then walk away from it once you were back in the mix(so to speak). I live in a good neighborhood with many great neighbors. I am the only male within blocks that goes to work everyday. Our little bedroom community has been overrun with entitlement seekers because the local Democratic ran government has made assistance so readily available. It's always in the name of "if we have this many people on these programs then we qualify for x$ of Federal Grant money." When our kids were in school we were constantly harassed to participate in the free school lunch program even though we DID NOT qualify. The school board said we didn't care about our community because all of this Federal Grant money was available if they just had enough children on the program. They actually attempted to say that by us refusing we were taking food out of the mouths of less fortunate children. It took us threatening a lawsuit to get them to stop harassing us. I'm sorry... only if I was on my dying bed and there was some miracle procedure that would save me would I ever ask for help. It's just the way I was raised. I simply don't understand the concept nor do I want to. Did you have fun at Ed's?  | ||
| Whatever |
I didn't mean to vent my frustration on you Jim... I just get tired of hearing it is the poor and the sick people's fault. It is like blaming the price of designer shoes on Oprah... entirely pointless. Unfortunately the last time I was layed off the backup job took over a year to land. That was true only because when the economy tanked and every one else who was layed off was looking for the backup job too. At four years of driving cab I was told I was 50th in line according to seniority. Unfortunately I can't do a heavy physical job due to two prior work injurys while bending steel. One thing that astounds me is that the illegal immigration problem has never been taken seriously by either party. I believe IF IT WERE TO OUR (the US's) ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE to prosecute illegals working illegally it would be taken seriously. Also, huge corporations that make billions in profits and get out of paying taxes because they have politicians in their back pockets... AND they still ship jobs over seas... well, it just pisses me off. Kindof like the HD Mo Fo screwing their employees and STILL opening up shop in India. There is no corporate sense of ethics in our country any more... not like there was in the early days of HD and Ford. If we keep blaming each other... like our politicians like to do... nothing ever gets done and everyone suffers. Ed's place rocks and so does Cindy... how do these weird old Buell guys always end up with these smart, normal wives I don't know.  | ||
| Jb2 |
Char, I love you too girl. You are someone I am proud to call a friend. I wish everyone that needed a helping hand was sure-footed as yourself. You are someone I believe will be contributing to our great country again in the very near future. I also know you were playing devil's advocate. It just proves that people with different opinions can still get along. Yep Ed rocks and Cindy has quite the job babysitting for Ed of Lettuce. They are great people too. Don't ask me how Ed and I ended up with such normal girls. Opposites attract? Best of luck on your job search. You know if you ever need anything or a place to hang your helmet and park your bike... well, you got our number. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's not nice to call Barack a crybaby. You'll hurt his feelings. Feelings and intentions are far more important than truth and facts to some. He seems to be among that some. So be nice to the guy, he has to deal with Congress. In his position, I'd have G. Gordon Liddy working for me....and, like the Chinese Communist Dictators Obama envies for their power and lack of restraint, I'd have less problems getting my ideas made reality.  Char, I'm very curious, if you had been in charge ( pick a date for maximum effect of your actions ) how would you handle the Middle east & the Terrorism problem? Not mocking you at all here. Genuinely curious. I keep asking people here for good ideas on how to handle Iran's ambitions, etc. and other than the reflexive "glass parking lot" solution, Few here "left of me" ever respond. I reject the glass parking lot as an answer since it would be very hard to choose who NOT to vaporize. One of the dishonest tactics in argument of some goes "why iraq, why not Yemen? Shouldn't we free them too?" But the person speaking doesn't want to free yemen. Just complain we freed Iraq. ( keeping free is their problem. An issue both R's and D's don't seem to comprehend at all. ) | ||
| Whatever |
I believe going into Afgahnistan was completley justified. However, we are the most sophisticated military on the planet. We have the best armed forces and technology in the world. I think a covert operation to pinpoint where AQ was and remove them at the source was the right way to do it. No matter where they were we should have extracted and eliminated them. That, I think, would have won the respect of the countries, especially in Europe that have been hit hard by major attacks, that have struggled to eradicate them. Yeah, whatever, tell me that we couldn't take that kind of risk... well, if you ask me, we have been doing the exact same thing in South America and Central America for decades. We should not have dismantled every single system of stability that the Iraqi people had, failed to re-build any infrastructure, then allowed rampant abuse of the government funding for the reconstruction through use of private security forces that are paid 700% of what enlisted and reservists are paid, exempted the mercenaries from ROE, and then told the world, aren't we great for "liberating the Iraqi people". No, that is not what I would have done. I would have executed the task at hand and gotten rid of AQ at the root wherever they were, not spent a huge grotesque sum of money to NOT KILL BIN LADEN for ten years... created this huge distraction, underestimated the effect that would have in solidarizing the extremist Islamic people and given them more ammunition to continue a Holy War with no end... For every "terrorist" killed we have created ten family members who are now radicalized and motivated. and, quite frankly, and I can say this because I no longer have close personal ties to people deployed over there (Kuwait, Iraq and Afgahnistan), created the cesspool that Iraq is today... and fueled the hatred of the moderate Islamic people who were somewhat sympathetic toward the US after 911. I would not have done that. And nothing Obama has done since taking office has even come close to the war profiteering that has occured on the backs of the common people in Iraq. We wanted the oil and we wanted the strategic position... and don't go wa wa wa about human rights abuses when private mercenaries from Chile and Nicaragua got paid to do our dirty work. The same individuals who have commited heinious crimes in their own countries? Why didn't we go into Sudan then... well, they had no oil and no strategic position. Oh, and don't even get me started on the Saudis, of which MOST of the 911 bombers were... not one of them was from Iraq. Not one. Is Obama perfect? No. But there is a reason he got elected, and it was the independent vote that got him elected, and because ,sorry to burst your bubble, a lot of Republicans no longer had the wool pulled over thier eyes by Bush/ Chaney. They were sick of the nonsense too. So there... you want references on the war profiteering racket I can give you them. Obama executes a military decision, he is called greedy and wasteful. Bush does the same thing, he is considered patriotic and a good leader. If Obama had not dropped a few bombs you would say he is weak and a coward. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Sorry. I don't go for that. Never have and never will. (Message edited by Whatever on July 15, 2011) | ||
| Mountainstorm |
All I can tell from this is people that call themselves Republicans or Democrats must be half retarded. Get a guy (or gal) that can get the job done. I don't care if the are purple and come from the 7th level of hell just get the damn job done. Stop posturing. Stop making sound bites. Stop trying to get re-elected. Just get the damn job done. | ||
| Strokizator |
Without defining what "the job" is, this is an absurd statement. Some people see fat kids and think there is a crisis. I just see fat kids. I see 12 million illegal aliens and think it's a crisis. Others see 12 million future democrats. Each of us wants our guy in the oval office. | ||
| Mountainstorm |
So far the only guy that can get the job done that I think needs doing that has his hat in the ring is Ron Paul. | ||
| Aesquire |
Char, I'm right in there about 55% on your response. I agree that the nation building exercise was a mess, no doubt corrupt, and a jihad magnet. I differ a little on the reasons for some of that, I've read some of the neocon writings on the decision process. But, like in the housing bubble, where it was a good idea to have people own homes, and got jillions sucked out of the program by greedy guys, it was a good idea to free Iraq and establish a republic that actually has some righteousness about it in the middle of dictator central. Didn't go as planned, exactly. I note we didn't get the oil and the strategic position is nonsense. Our sh!t over in Iraq is deployed completely wrong to be a threat to anyone but ourselves if we had to run away. So while you have a point, it's not real accurate either. ( who got rich on all this you may be right about, BTW. Was Soros invested? ) I completely agree that directed violence against the enemy as focused as possible at taking out the top of the food chain is the way to go. We have to NOT do the usual ( as we have and are still doing ) and be limited by evil people shielding terror groups. If Syria/Iran/Pakistan/Bermuda is allowing terrorists to hop across the border and rearm, etc. we should, if needed, remove the leaders of the regime and strike the training camps and resupply points with vigor. Rebuilding a nation shouldn't be our goal, though we'd be happy to sell happy meals to any country that actually decides to be an adult member of the planet. We should encourage that. The way we're working at in now isn't doing that. I'm concerned about Libya, it could be a generational war as far as we can tell. Who's on Gaddafi's side? ( besides L. Farrakhan. ) | ||
| Whatever |
I think you might have misunderstod what I meant. I think "regime change" in foreign countries is pretty useless. I think that us being the world babysitter and setting up puppet governments is an unneccessary waste of lives and money. It seems that was the problem in Iraq. I don't think it makes a difference on a personal level for the average American who is in power in countries that have had centuries of tribal warfare. At the end of the day, if they (Sunnis, Shiites and Baathists) kill each other I don't freakin care... let them at each other, tie up thier own resources, so to speak divide and conquer (but without the conquer part). We were so worried about WMD when there was an internationally acceptable plan in place... comply with UN sanctions or else, with the UN send in troops, if that is what it comes to. But no... No one talks about the fact that a unilateral decision to invade Iraq was the wrong thing to do. Period. Hillary Clinton lost a lot of people on this point. She took the bait that was offered. A lot of politicians did, and a lot of the public did also. Others, including Obama, remained very very skeptical of the war machine, and never thought invasion of Iraq was the ticket. Afghanistan, yes. Iraq, no. That issue alone was enough to swing otherwise conservative voters over to support Obama. Has he been perfect? No. I still do not agree with having a 50,000 soldier force over in Iraq. But in a nutshell it is a step in the right direction. McCain flat out said that he would be full force engaged in Iraq for another ten years if he had his way. What happpens with the reservists who have been stretched too thin? What about when we read that a Badweb member is on his sixth deployment? What about the fact that I had a close personal friend that has been deployed three times? I think it is shameless. Alot of the armed forces are portrayed as right wing conservatives, well I am not so sure anymore... yeah, there is a lot of talk about how "patriotic" Bush and Chaney were and Palin and McCain are... when they have supported abuse of power, and abuse of reservists to the point of deteriorating anys sense of emergency response here at home from the reserves? For all the siphoning off of emergency response money to the Department of Homeland Security... we could have launched a major preparedness campaign here at home... and we could have ramped up immigration and border patrol by 200% and still have taken the cheaper option. People say, oh, but that is communist or facist... or whatever the hell they want to say, then in the same breath feel like we should spend billions of dollars that could have been spent on intelligence operations here in the US and Europe where we had unlimited support after 911. And it is not like I am happy with Bill Clinton and NAFTA. Hillary herself is the biggest poser I know of. There are A LOT of things we could have done differently before we got to this point economically... I would say starting in the 1950's. Almost all of us are "immigrants" here, so to speak. My great grandparents came over on a boat through Ellis Island. The other side has been involved in the Revolutionary and Civil wars as physicians and soldiers. I feel very blessed. Sure, there are people who take advantage of the system... but a lot of times they are the scapegoat for corporations to buy politicians and ram through their agendas, such as tax breaks to send jobs over seas, etc. Globalization is killing us, one family at a time here at home. (Message edited by Whatever on July 16, 2011) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Sure I will take a whack at this one. 9/11/01 World Trade attacked Our Response 9/12/01 Dome of the Rock, TACMS Cruise Missile, or a F117 Hot Pickle - flip a coin, I dont care, by dawn it is levelled. Mecca/Medina - I KNOW we have some wonderful Neutron arsenals doing NOTHING. Those places glow for 50 years Afghanistan - Big Ugly Fat Fellows dropping Napalm on the Poppyfield Followed by low level spraying of Agent Orange. Punishment for Terrorists, Pirates, Treasonist Assenters and Supporters... Draw and quarter seems a bit merciful... but the trade out in duration is a wonderful dichotomy. I like the Russian version. You make an •••••• of yourself with being a terrorist - your family is eleminated, your home,business, block, and probably a good portion of your neighbors, relatives and associates. Either by firebombed helicopter raids, or the more personal, head on a pike renditions. Vlad the Impaler, had a very effective manner of dealing with mauarding threatening invading terrorists. His name today is still fear'd. You 'submit' to them one IOTA and it shows your weakness. You garner no respect. Winning the hearts and minds of the enemy is two to the chest and one to the head. I have had a long life that I could have made friends with any lawyers I could, ... | ||
| Sifo |
I think "regime change" in foreign countries is pretty useless. I think that us being the world babysitter and setting up puppet governments is an unneccessary waste of lives and money. Oddly for once I largely agree with you on this point. This is also the line of reasoning that lead our founders to protect the right to bear arms to promote a strong militia to provide for defense. The did allow government to maintain a navy, something that really doesn't lend itself to the private sector. Standing armies during peaceful times are a big temptation to be used beyond strictly defensive purposes. So are we in agreement that people should have the right to bear arms, including modern "assault rifles"? BTW I'm talking about the real deal fully automatic fire assault rifles, not look alike sport versions. On the regime change thing, what do you thing about the bombing in Libya? Right or wrong decision? McCain flat out said that he would be full force engaged in Iraq for another ten years if he had his way. That's quite a misrepresentation of McCain's statement. There was a qualifier of "if that's what it takes", as in we need to not walk away from it half finished. You've taken the take from the leftwing press that McCain just wanted the war to go on for another 10 years. That's just absurd. For all the siphoning off of emergency response money to the Department of Homeland Security... we could have launched a major preparedness campaign here at home... and we could have ramped up immigration and border patrol by 200% and still have taken the cheaper option. Again, I find myself agreeing with you. Must be a full moon! I wish our leaders would take this seriously. Afghanistan, yes. Iraq, no. These aren't so simple. Going into Afghanistan - Yes. Going into Iraq - Debatable. Nation building in Afghanistan - No. Nation building in Iraq (now that we're there) - Yes. I'll leave it at that for now. Need to search out food in Bristol, TN. Great ride today on Rt 160 from KY into VA.  |
