| Author | Message | ||
     Contra_mundum |
This isn't meant to stir up the pot by any means...I just find this to be a very interesting topic. Just like politics, not everyone is on the same side of the fence, but I hope the board members can continue to discuss this topic without letting their emotions getting the best of them. I look forward to reading more of people's thoughts and insights on all these topics. I found this from an article about someone explaining their non religious beliefs. Well worded in my opinion. "Living an honest life – for that you need the truth, I learned that the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, in the end leads to liberation and dignity. So what does the question “Why don’t you believe in God?” really mean. I think when someone asks that; they are really questioning their own belief. In a way they are asking “what makes you so special? “How come you weren’t brainwashed with the rest of us?” “How dare you say I’m a fool and I’m not going to heaven, f— you!” Let’s be honest, if one person believed in God he would be considered pretty strange. But because it’s a very popular view it’s accepted. And why is it such a popular view? That’s obvious. It’s an attractive proposition. Believe in me and live forever. Again if it was just a case of spirituality this would be fine. “Do unto others…” is a good rule of thumb. I live by that. Forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is. Buts that’s exactly what it is -‐ a virtue. Not just a Christian virtue. No one owns being good. I’m good. I just don’t believe I’ll be rewarded for it in heaven. My reward is here and now. It’s knowing that I try to do the right thing. That I lived a good life. And that’s where spirituality really lost its way. When it became a stick to beat people with. “Do this or you’ll burn in hell.” You won’t burn in hell. But be nice anyway." | ||
| Blackm2 |
Best thing I've read in this out of control thread. | ||
| Blake |
Robert (Contra...)
That's funny, not realistic, but it sure is funny to read. I tend more to ask folks "how can you believe that the entire universe and life as we know it is the result of mere chance, an impossibly odds-defying accident?" The usual answer is something like "I've seen no proof otherwise" or "I cannot believe in something that I cannot see", or "If there were a God, why would he permit all the suffering and injustice in the world? I cannot believe in a God that would allow it." I don't know a single believer who would react in the manner you've imagined. Seems to me you've contrived that dialogue to make yourself feel better about your own belief. No? Honestly? Try again? | ||
| Blake |
>>> “Do this or you’ll burn in hell.” Speaking of my own faith, Christianity, when have you ever heard a Christian say any such thing? Did Jesus ever say that? No he didn't. So how is it you assign such language to Christianity? | ||
| Contra_mundum |
"Seems to me you've contrived that dialogue to make yourself feel better about your own belief. No? Honestly?" Absolutely not, yes, honestly...I just really enjoyed the text in that article and thought it was appropriate to the thread. Yes, I share the same views as the author of that text, but I didn't post it to push my view on anyone. Being that I feel the same way I connected well with the author's comments in the same way you connect to other Christians and their thoughts. "Did Jesus ever say that? No he didn't." Unfortunately there is no real historical evidence, especially unbiased, to prove whether he did or did not say such things so I am unsure how you know that for fact. -Do this or you’ll burn in hell- "...when have you ever heard a Christian say any such thing? Often. Maybe not in those exact words, but the threats have been made against us whom don't follow Christian beliefs. Go to a protest rally and take a look around; you'll find quite a few examples...   | ||
| Blake |
What do they mean when they say "turn to Jesus"? >>> Let’s be honest, if one person believed in God he would be considered pretty strange. But because it’s a very popular view it’s accepted. And why is it such a popular view? That’s obvious. It’s an attractive proposition. Not for many people it isn't. Many people don't care to live according to God's will. In fact today I'd say most don't. Satan himself recognizes the existence of God. Is he attracted to the idea?  >>> Believe in me and live forever. That characterization of the Christian faith is woefully lacking. What do you understand the following to mean in its full truest sense?
>>> Again if it was just a case of spirituality this would be fine. “Do unto others…” is a good rule of thumb. I live by that. Why? That is seen nowhere else in the natural world. Why do you seek to live by the golden rule? >>> Forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is. I disagree. The greatest of all virtues is to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. >>> Buts that’s exactly what it is; a virtue. Not just a Christian virtue. No one owns being good. I agree. Although I'd clarify and point out that forgiveness is a virtue that is mandated by Christ, thus Christianity; in other words, in order to "believe" we must forgive. To wit, the applicable portion of the prayer taught by Jesus "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." We are not forgiven unless we are able to forgive others. >>> I’m good. I just don’t believe I’ll be rewarded for it in heaven. Are you rejecting spiritual existence, or just rejecting the idea of any connection to your behavior here? What is "good"? Have you never misbehaved, lied, intentionally caused harm, taken something that wasn't yours...? Was that "good"? >>> My reward is here and now. It’s knowing that I try to do the right thing. That I lived a good life. How do you measure "a good life"? At what point would it not be "a good life"? Why do you imagine that you feel rewarded for treating others as you would be treated, or for forgiving others? Why don't animals as a rule behave likewise? What is different about humans that leads up to recognize the "good" of the golden rule and of forgiveness? >>> And that’s where spirituality really lost its way. When it became a stick to beat people with. “Do this or you’ll burn in hell.” I can kind of agree with you in that using religion to denigrate people is wrong. However, if I advise you truthfully that "if you go down that road, you'll drive off a cliff", am I beating you with a stick or am I warning you of the perilous consequences of going down that road? The only reason you see such a message as "a stick to beat people with" is that you reject that it may be true. Question: If the warning is true, then how would you view it? Perspective makes all the difference. (Message edited by Blake on January 20, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Unfortunately there is no real historical evidence, especially unbiased, to prove whether he did or did not say such things so I am unsure how you know that for fact. The Gospels are indeed real, corroborated, historical, scholarly evidence no matter how much some may choose to pretend otherwise. Maybe I should ask differently... Do any of the teachings, statements, or actions of Jesus Christ as documented in the Christian Bible's Gospels indicate that he ever used such language? Are you even familiar with the Gospels? Have you read them? | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
>>> “Do this or you’ll burn in hell.” Speaking of my own faith, Christianity, when have you ever heard a Christian say any such thing? Did Jesus ever say that? No he didn't. So how is it you assign such language to Christianity? Not sure which of the many branches of christianity you make your nest. But being raised Baptist, I've listen to plenty of sermons that mention hell and that those that do not accept Christ will burn in hell. Southern Baptists preachers are very "fire and brimestone" in thier sermons. I am sure my preacher used that language. >>> Again if it was just a case of spirituality this would be fine. “Do unto others…” is a good rule of thumb. I live by that. Why? That is seen nowhere else in the natural world. Why do you Really Blake? It's called empathy. Most people have this emotion. Some people, sociopaths, don't. I don't think you have to know Jesus to be able to understand and empathize with other people. You don't have to have religion to know how you would like people to treat you and to realize that it makes sense to treat them that way too. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
I'm going to step in here very lightly as this is a subject that I can get worked up over. I'll state right up front that I'm a believer and a Christian. My problem is that I don't have much faith in "man" and after learning/studying some of the history of Christianity I'm not sure what is to be believed and followed and what's not. One thing I do believe though is that the King James version of the Bible is NOT the be all and end all of the word of God, and that folks who pick small or individual passages and pontificate on them are making a mistake. Things like the taking up of serpents, for example. I'm not perfect but try to do the best I can with what I think is right and is wanted of me. If I'm wrong I'll pay for it, if not I'll be welcomed when the time comes. | ||
| Contra_mundum |
"What do they mean when they say "turn to Jesus"?" From my perspective, I think they are saying that you need to believe what they believe, if not then I deserve to placed in this so called 'hell.' I interpret it as a threat to conform to their ways. "...Satan himself recognizes the existence of God. Is he attracted to the idea?" What evidence is there for Satan's existence? At this point it is only fair to say that he/she/it is only another character in the story. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." At face value I find that sentence is ludicrous. Eternal life??? Unfortunately as with all creatures of the earth our biology doesn't allow us to live eternally. We all have an expiration date. Until proven otherwise, I believe when your dead your dead. "...Do unto others...Why? That is seen nowhere else in the natural world. Why do you" It is EVERYWHERE in the natural world, but humans can excel at it. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Altruism: Why do you think our species has been so successful in evolving to adapt? "Are you rejecting spiritual existence, or just rejecting the idea of any connection to your behavior here?" Please clarify. Connection to me behavior? "Why do you imagine that you feel rewarded for treating others as you would be treated, or for forgiving others? Why don't animals as a rule behave likewise?" We are animals; so animals do. That is part of nature. Try to look at the at in another light. What is the evolutionary advantage for our bodies to produce the feeling of being rewarded or forgiveness? How would that positive feeling affect our behavior? How would that behavior influence the survival of our species? "If I advise you truthfully that "if you go down that road, you'll drive off a cliff." Am I beating you with a stick? The only reason you see such a message as "a stick to beat people with" is that you reject that it may be true. " I disagree. I feel it's the intolerant attitude that is given off by believers. Conform or pay some price. Perspective does indeed makes all the difference. | ||
| Blake |
"What do they mean when they say "turn to Jesus"?" >>> From my perspective, I think they are saying that you need to believe what they believe, if not then I deserve to placed in this so called 'hell.' I interpret it as a threat to conform to their ways. What do they believe? You think they are threatening you? Do you think they stand out on the street intending to threaten people? Really? "...Satan himself recognizes the existence of God. Is he attracted to the idea?" >>> What evidence is there for Satan's existence? At this point it is only fair to say that he/she/it is only another character in the story. Play along. What reason does Satan have for rebelling against God, though he recognizes God? "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." >>> At face value I find that sentence is ludicrous. "At face value"? I agree. At face value it is silly. Why would you ever limit your understanding of what is truly the most profoundly influential collection of books on the planet to mere "face value"? >>> Eternal life??? Unfortunately as with all creatures of the earth our biology doesn't allow us to live eternally. We all have an expiration date. Until proven otherwise, I believe when your dead your dead. So you choose to "believe" that, with no proof. Have you no sense whatsoever of anything beyond your corporal existence? "...Do unto others as you would have others do unto you...Why? That is seen nowhere else in the natural world. Why do you seek to live according to that rule?" >>> It is EVERYWHERE in the natural world, but humans can excel at it. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Altruism: Why do you think our species has been so successful in evolving to adapt? I've not seen it anywhere in the natural world outside of humanity. Example please. Bill Gates is giving away much of his fortune to help others. What animal does that? What animal expends its energies looking out for complete strangers? When a wolf from a neighboring pack wanders into its competitors' territory, it is torn to shreds, not greeted and given food and drink and a place to sleep. When the biggest grizzly gains the best spot on the river to catch salmon, it doesn't toss its catch to other bears to help them prepare for the long Winter. I'm sorry, in nature, it is pure unadulterated survival of the fittest. There is NO charity in nature that I've ever seen. "Are you rejecting spiritual existence, or just rejecting the idea of any connection to your behavior here?" >>> Please clarify. Connection to me behavior? You already answered above that you reject the idea of spiritual existence. My question was if you rejected spiritual existence or just don't believe that your life on earth has anything to do with (effect upon) future spiritual existence. "Why do you imagine that you feel rewarded for treating others as you would be treated, or for forgiving others? Why don't animals as a rule behave likewise?" >>> We are animals; so animals do. Semantics. Please. I mean "all other animals". >>> That is part of nature. Try to look at it in another light. What is the evolutionary advantage for our bodies to produce the feeling of being rewarded or forgiveness? How would that positive feeling affect our behavior? How would that behavior influence the survival of our species? I don't see a connection. A family who sacrifices to help others is hurting his own family. Not a good plan in the world of natural selection. You didn't answer the question. You don't know why you feel rewarded for following the golden rule or when you forgive others? You think it is a physical response due to evolution? Can you please explain that? "If I advise you truthfully that "if you go down that road, you'll drive off a cliff." Am I beating you with a stick? The only reason you see such a message as "a stick to beat people with" is that you reject that it may be true. " >>> I disagree. I feel it's the intolerant attitude that is given off by believers. Conform or pay some price. Arrogance sucks, no doubt. You can't beat someone into wanting to learn about God's word. However, if you saw a similar group at a fork in the road and their signs stated, "take the high road or plummet to your death!", would you be similarly offended? Are they too being "intolerant"? Or are they trying, admittedly in very poor fashion, to save you? If you ever see such demonstrators, I dare you to muster the courage to go talk to one. Tell them in a thoughtful tone that you feel offended by their message, that it comes across as a threat, not a message of hope. I think your preconceptions will be shattered. If not, then @#$%'em! They are not my brothers or sisters! | ||
| Aesquire |
It is absolutely true that evil men have used religion to do great harm. I would argue that certain religions created by man in the last few thousand years are designed to make willing, violent followers. In the case of Marxist variant faiths ( Communists, Greenies, Progressives ) we know that the creation of the religion was in fact meant to allow a very few self appointed elite to rule a vast number if people. Whatever misplaced ideals might have spawned marxism, it was very quickly made by the following generations the most murderous faith in history. Hundreds of Millions dead. Islam was also deliberately made a faith to Still, it's the exploiters of faith that create evil, not faith itself. Or do you think faith itself opens the door for exploitation? ( "if you believe nothing, you will believe anything" or... is belief in one unprovable??? ) edit: "oppress"?? darn did I just write that namby pamby jargon? (Message edited by aesquire on January 21, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
People who mind their own business and are kind towards others don't start wars, regardless of the reason. The conditions that lead to war are instigated by busy-bodies and the greedy. Borrowing from Dave H's logic, if love of money is the root of all evil, then should we not get rid of money? Impossible of course as there will always arise some form of valued material facilitating barter. Consider hording toilet paper?  That biblical quote might truly better read "the love of wealth is the root of all evil", or "the love of the material is the root of all evil". Would there be less conflict if the ratio of women to men was 2:1? Or would there just be a lot of very tired men? | ||
| Aesquire |
Then would you go for multi partner civil unions? Seems to be a need in such a world in order to protect and nurture our young in offset male/female ratio environments. ..... Might be a good idea today. Bear in mind the very high illegitimacy ratio in poor welfare culture, and the possibility of giving more children a father figure. Consider China's high male ratio in the wake of a "one child" policy and mandated abortion. I think a simple contract defining rights and responsibilities, just as a existing personal partnership laws would suffice. Oh, yeah. Human, adult. Just to be precise. Sorry for the thread hijack.... I believe we've already well defined that bad guys are bad and good guys are good....... |
