| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Whisperstealth (more like gig'em loudly in this thread, LOL) The point is not that I am any better than any other here. My point is that some are allowing themselves to be sucked down into evilness right alongside the Westboro jerks. Satan wins. Shun the hate. Deal with reality and in correct measure. If we start killing those who irritate us, we are lost. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
Blake, Now that last post I agree with completely. >>>What is wrong with some of you people? Calling for bullets and other violent acts against the Westboro idiots? You are worse than they. That - I don't appreciate. Asking what is wrong with me? Sounds like A) You already know or are being sarcastic. B) Our not appreciating how frustrated some are, and need to vent a little. I said "I would love to.." Not that I would. Ref: " Leads me to believe Blake is on to something. God has a purpose for them as well...". I do understand it would be the wrong thing to do, but the thought (sinnful nature I guess), is there. So shoot me. Saying I am worse than they are, is something that upsets me. Even if I were to cause them pain, I still would not consider myself worse than them. Perhaps there is something wrong with me. Perhaps fighting pain with pain in this case would still be wrong. But as the book says, sin is sin, I do not believe mine would be worse. I look at it this way: They are taking away the right's, peace, and ability for someone to grieve and seek closure. Once you invade someone's life in such a manner, you start loosing your right's. Harming the few(WBC), to stop them from hurting the many, is an ends justify the means proposition, but one I could live with. Not saying kill, but a few bruises, broken bones - yeah. Still don't believe that makes me worse. There is a saying: Pain(physical) is temporary, pride is forever. I largely agree with that. - Sometimes physical pain can remain. Anyway - A thought of mine is: Physical pain is mostly temporary, emotional pain is much harder to get rid of. I have felt a lot of both. Emotional pain is a MF'er. These WBC creeps are adding emotional pain to an already painful experience. Nobody has the right to do that. That is not free speech. That is not the free flow of idea's and information. That is an attack to a person core, and an invasion to the pursuit of happiness. Words and actions such as these do indeed hurt. Somebody that cuts me off irritates me. The person in the quick check with a cart load irritates me. That my DSL service is crappy irritates me. WBC strikes a very raw nerve. To say that I have allowed them to cause the sin of offense to exist with-in me is a truth. But is there not justifiable anger here? Maybe I need to read some John Bevere. - And we go back to: Leads me to believe Blake is on to something. God has a purpose for them as well... And Oh, gigdy, gigdy lol  | ||
| Blake |
Adjust expectations to avoid so much irritation. You'll live a lot longer and will enjoy life so much more. Truth. | ||
| Bsdfool |
Just declare protesting funerals and indecent act and have done with it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Pessimists are NEVER disappointed. | ||
| Babired |
oh yeah the Fall From Grace documentary had 2 telephone interviews with one of Phelp's daughters and one of his son's who left. It was very interesting. It was also interesting to see the kids no more than 10 years old talking to the film crew not knowing why they were demonstrating but the message was the same message of Hate. | ||
| Tom_b |
Blake, i think advocating violence against these guys is not a good idea. Especially on a public fourm. There are ways to deal with these idiots. Just not enough people care about it to make some changes. As long s it doesn't affect them most people don't care. Until there is a groundswell against them they will be able to do what they do. In Kansas there is a law to keep them away i think it is 100 yards.. | ||
| Court |
>>>> Especially on a public forum. You have NO IDEA how accurate that is. Two things I would NEVER do.
Some of us have learned the hard way how many folks have access, roughly 138,000,000, to this information and that they will really come to your house. The internet lures the unaware into thinking they are sitting in a nice parlor . . you know "just you and I" chatting. 'Taint so. P.S. - as you may have noted over the last 16 years . . I don't prescribe any of this . . just adhere to it as my personal policy. | ||
| Slaughter |
I found the ONE THING that Moore has done that might be the MOST effective anti-Phelps action to date: The rest of you recommending violence to counteract Phelps can just go to HELL - and I mean that with all sincerity. | ||
| Babired |
well in Arizona the I heard on the news they have or are writing law to ban them and the news said the Governor is going to sign it into law. | ||
| Slaughter |
Good for Arizona! Phelps, David Koresh, "Reverend" Jim Jones - have done (and continue to do) much of what many people consider to be the devil's work. | ||
| Jaimec |
Slaughter: LOVE IT!! | ||
| Sifo |
+1 I hope they get this done fast! | ||
| Britchri10 |
The Arizona legislature has passed emergency legislation to prevent members of a church notorious for its anti-gay, anti-Catholic views from disrupting tomorrow's funeral of a nine-year-old victim of Saturday's shooting. The Westboro Baptist church in Kansas praised Jared Lee Loughner for killing six people, including Christina Taylor Green and wounding 14 others. The church founder, Fred Phelps, posted a video in which he said: "Thank God for the violent shooter, one of your soldier heroes in Tucson – Westboro Baptist church will picket their funerals." The church has gained notoriety for disrupting funerals of soldiers and people who have died of Aids. It claims the deaths are a punishment for society's tolerance of homosexuality. The new law, proposed by a state senator, Kyrsten Sinema, keeps members of the church at least 100 metres from the funeral. "It is the most disgusting thing I ever read in my entire life. I literally threw up after I read it ... I'm like, 'I'm gonna fix this'," Sinema told Fox News. Tucson residents also plan to try to keep members of the Westboro church at bay. Christin Gilmer has gathered more than 40 volunteers to wear 3m high angel wings and stand between the church members and the funeral. A group of bikers says it will surround the church members. A US appeals court last year upheld the right of members of Westboro church to protest at funerals, although the supreme court decision on this is currently awaited. The case was brought by the father of a soldier killed in Iraq whose burial was disrupted. • This article was amended on 12 January 2011. The original said that the US supreme court last year upheld the right of members of Westboro church to protest at funerals. (Source: Guardian.co.uk 01.12.11) | ||
| Blake |
Steve, might you be displaying some good old fashioned "righteous" indignation? I'm diggin' it. | ||
| Babired |
it might get ugly in Arizona. If I was in that state I would SO be there with the bikers! | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Re - Blake (sorry for the extra extra extra long post btw...) Hi Blake, I’m going to try to trim down the post so it’s a bit more bite size for the readers… if anyone wants the full posts they can read up in the thread. … >>> I'll be the first person to ask any christian to read their own bible. I agree, many don't actually read the whole thing. Lot's of great information in there not presented during Sunday scripture readings. I recommend bible study too, since knowing the historical facts and context surrounding the writings is vital to truly understanding the meaning of it all. • I will agree that the majority of the bible isn’t taught but I bet I can guess why. How many parishioners so you think a church would lose if they preached about when god ordered 2 bears to kill 42 children? That’s 9 more than John Wayne Gacy! More examples abound of god killing people, destroying entire cities, etc… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20ki ngs%202:23-24&version=KJV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy >>> After all, reading the bible thoroughly is the best way to make a new atheist, it even worked for me... Ignorance comes in all shapes and forms, Christians, atheists, agnostics. Funny how the lifespans and levels of happiness for folks who adhere to their religious faith are significantly greater than those who don't. Explain? • You raise two issues, let me address individually; o Lifespans greater for religious people? I was unable to find any specific studies on this topic (going in either favor) however I would suggest that any study along these lines should be taken with a grain of salt. Since many atheists, including me, were at one time churchgoers then one has to conclude that a certain portion of any congregation is atheist or has some doubt. In which case any study performed will have skewed results due to this factor. o Levels of happiness? This is a subjective item and really cannot be compared, how can one person say they are ‘more happy’ than the next? If they are both as ‘happy as they can be’ how would one test the happy level of both subjects in a scientific manner as to obtain a conclusive result? If I was a woman I would DEFINITELY be unhappy, especially with the church, once I read and understood that god gave women PMS because of some silly fruit picking bimbo back in the garden. I’d bet I most women truly knew how they are viewed in the bible they’d have some concern. Especially when god himself endorses rape on more than one occasion. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB) "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Judges 5:30 NAB) They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB) But I digress… o Personally I would say I’m more happy than my religious friends because I am free to do as I choose without the fear of a murdering god bestowing his wrath upon me. I’m more happy because I do not live with church programmed guilt. I’m more happy because I do not adhere to the idea that I was somehow born with ‘original sin’ and have to spend my life atoning for it. I’m more happy because I do not view my mother and sister and nieces as inferior beings. Atheists are responsible for by far the most horrendously injust inhumanity, atrocities, and crimes against humanity the world has ever seen. That is an irrefutable fact. *Atrocities? You are making this too easy my friend… god killed every single being in the world if you believe the bible so as far as body count ‘god’ wins. If you count the bodies in the bible it’s around 2 million. Interestingly enough satan is only attributed to two deaths directly but again I digress. Essentially atheism is being misunderstood here. Atheism is not a belief system or a cause, it is simply a person that has not been programmed into believing fairy tales about invisible people from thousands of years ago. Here’s a great quote that gets to the point ‘Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness. ‘ And before you bring up Hilter take a look, he’s actually against atheism; ‘Adolf Hitler was baptized in a Catholic Church in 1889 and was never be excommunicated or in any other way officially censured by the Catholic Church. Hitler frequently referred to God and Christianity in his various speeches and writings. In one 1933 speech, he said that "To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk." In another he said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." http://atheism.about.com/od/isatheismdangerous/a/H itlerAtheist.htm But to point out atrocity in the name of god (we could just use the bible but we’ll use fact instead  I could make a list as long as you’d like but I’ll just include a few links to keep the post shorter. http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html http://listverse.com/2008/04/02/8-atrocities-commi tted-in-the-name-of-religion/ http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/s alem/SAL_ACCT.HTM Jesus on the other hand suffered and died for all mankind so that we might be forgiven our sins and enjoy eternal life in heaven, and he taught that we should treat each other as we would like to be treated. How terrible? Huh? • Well this is another good point, jesus was not that all kind and wonderful as they preach and we can find the evidence in the bible (if you can call anything from the bible evidence that is…) He is one angry dude actually – here’s a ‘believe in me or else’ statement; • John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. jesus killed people in the bible too. I guess this ‘lamb’ of god has fangs… • Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/11.html#20 and if jesus was forgiving he sures shows it in an odd way, if your kids don’t behave KILL THEM; Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. • ============================ >>> ... WBC... yet another good example of how nice the world could be without religion… Please compare contrast how nice the world would be without atheism, predicated on the fact that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Pol Pot were all atheists and that Marxist Communism is atheistic. • I believe I’ve addressed this point above but here’s another article explaining the point that atheism has nothing to do with this; http://stupac2.blogspot.com/2006/10/hitler-stalin- and-mao-were-not-atheists.html Let's see, hundreds of millions starved, murdered, imprisoned, tortured and brutalized by atheists versus how many people annoyed and disturbed at some funerals? • This is the same point but I’ll address it again, are you trying to say atheism was the CAUSE for these atrocities? If so state your evidence that shows this clearly… >>> There will always be whack jobs that we have to deal with in life but religion helps these schmucks flourish. Lemme see, is global warming a religion? Is Marxism a religion? Is PETA a religion? Are the various enviro-extremist movements religions? Are labor unions religions? * “Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of life and the universe,…” so by definition, no those are not religions. Your point is what? Lemme see, I haven't seen any Christian hordes killing anyone lately, or burning down homes, or throwing fake blood on people, or trying to steal my property, or beating people up outside political events, or killing congresswomen and judges and little girls. Oops, that last one was an atheist. Sorry 'bout that. Chalk one more set of murders up for the unbelievers. *wow I’m surprised you’d make that argument considering the world is engulfed by religious inspired violence which should be no surprise given how violent the bible is. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shannyn-moore/christ ian-fundamentalist_b_209521.html I could go into abortion clinic shootings and numerous other articles about those… I could mention the people who killed their OWN KIDS http://www.myth-one.com/memorial.htm …and again you bring up the same point as above, atheism is NOT a set of beliefs, it is the absence, or choice not to believe, in invisible people living in the sky. >>> Religion provides a pulpit from which they can ramrod their personal agendas, insecurities, fears and bigotries down the throats of their parishioners. Preachers like that usually don't have congregations, • Oh really? It seems the crazier the preacher the larger the following in some cases. Consider the massive following of those TV evangelicals (especially back before all their scandals broke..) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown If Jones isn’t mainstream enough then how about the catholics? They have how many million followers and their preachers have been PROVEN to be child molesters and their leadership has been shown to transfer these perverts within the church to protect them! Ratzinger has personally protected some of these monsters, oh and did you know he was also in the Nazi Youth Program? Oh by the way he’s the pope if you aren’t up on the catholics… fair to say they have a congregation? … unless they play to insecure racists; you know like "Reverend" Wright, our president's former minister? Louis Farakan comes to mind too. • Ah you make another point for me, religion provides the tools that these people can use to manipulate their congregations by playing on insecurities and unknowns. The very insecurities that brings them to church is what allows a normal individual to get sucked into their rhetoric. It’s this blind allegiance that is most troubling, the more a person BELIEVES the less the person THINKS for themselves and when people stop thinking for themselves then a person with bad motivations can step in and tell that person what to think whether that be ‘a guy lived in a fish for 3 days’ or ‘go blow up that building’ (obviously I’m using the extreme here but you get the idea…) Mostly though, ministers, rabbis and the like provide moral guidance and spiritual inspiration for the good of mankind, from my experience at least. • I somewhat agree, I believe most people are truly ‘good’ people as it’s in our nature as a species. However, blind faith allows religion to manipulate these good people into doing bad things and that is the danger. What atheist organizations are providing billions of dollars in charitable services and humanitarian relief to the needy of the world? • I doubt there would ever be an ‘atheist only’ charity for one simple reason. By our very nature atheists do not exclude people. If an atheist was to start a charity the last thing on their mind would be what invisible sky god his staff may or may not believe in. • We could go back and forth regarding the value of missionary work. While many missions may truly be trying to help we can clearly see the horrific impact the catholic church and it’s missions have done to the African continent. Their ridiculous stance on condoms and outright LYING (telling the indigenous peoples condoms spread AIDS) have killed unknown millions (1.3 mil in 2009). • http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-a frica-condoms-aids • http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm >>> Usually preachers this far out from the mainstream are attributed to running cults, however this nut job has an official 'church', not that it makes a difference as one invisible sky god is just as silly of a notion as the next, but it gives him some credibility in the eyes of his followers (however false that credibility may be). "An official church"? You too can have one. Simply register and there you go. I truly have no idea what you mean. Seems like nothing more than anti-religious bigotry. Bigotry sucks by the way. *I actually stated having an official church makes no real difference if you read my point closely. My point was by using the word ‘church’ and ‘baptist’ he’s able to steal credibility. Imagine I started the first ‘Cash and Loans by Dave’ store, doesn’t sound like much. Let’s change the name and see how your perception changes. Let’s call it ‘First Bank’, now this imaginary thing seems to be more legitimate because we’ve been accustomed to trusting ‘banks’ to a degree (ok this might be a poor analogy given the recent bank screw ups but you get my drift) >>> With the ‘church’ behind him and the bible in hand he’s able to use these tools to …too?)… what kind of a childhood is that? I guess I'm not as familiar with Westboro as you. What that Westboro preaches leads to you believe that their children will be convinced that all their friends will burning in hell? Not that it matters, we pretty much agree on the sacreligious nature of Westboro. *watch the video I mentioned especially around 1:45 when the boy speaks… scary…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k in this we can see how they believe, not only their schoolmates but the whole world will burn in hell and it’s also demonstrated how the kids are constantly bombarded by this hatespeach… >>> in the youtube clip below we see how the life of one member was affected by standing up for what is right and leaving the church. In this case religion destroyed this poor girls relationship with her siblings as well as her parents… Religion destroyed it? Or people did? Seek truth. *Yes exactly, the religious beliefs of this family caused pretty much everything we see here in the video… 1. we see her church go so far into evil that she can’t stand it and must leave 2. we see her family disown her because of her failure to believe what they believe 3. we see how her family has programmed her siblings by their reaction to her departure What other truth is there to see? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k 1. Without religion …, I’m saying we just would not have WBC Okay. That is a valid point. Without atheism we'd not have had Marxist Communism. • FALSE – Atheism is not the cause of anything because it is NOT a belief system, again we’re going back to that same point… >>> and nobody can say that’s not A GOOD THING… (not having Westboro) I really cannot answer that. As I posted previously, the miserable jerks have indeed united a VAST conglomeration of Americans in opposition to their outrageous behavior. Is that not a good thing? Who are you to say or know for certain? • Are you saying that the gathering of opposition to WBC is a REASON for WBC to exist? Was the unification of the American people against a common enemy in WWII worth the cost of the holocaust? Yes I can say if WBC never existed, if religion never existed, the world would be better off. >>> without religion he wouldn’t have the tools to do what he’s done… religion gave him the pulpit and the book to start this mess! Nonsense. Most any issue of one's choosing can be whipped into a cause of stirring import for some or in a few cased for very many. Take Marxism, naziism, enviromentalism, unionism, and yes atheism for example. ALL have been exploited, some by inherent core design, to justify and cajole people into outrageous acts. • You somewhat help make my point again here. BLIND ALLEGIANCE is what religion demands, don’t believe the facts, your family, your peers, the media, believe ONLY the bible and what the church says. The other groups you mention are not religions and don’t have any bearing on this debate. >>> 2. Without religion we wouldn’t have these unfortunate parishioners being brainwashed regularly into believing his message of hate and intolerance. We also wouldn't have the MASSIVE outpouring of humanitarian good works *I’ve made my point above about how religious ‘good works’ are not necessarily GOOD… some of the most amazing accomplishments of mankind including in science *nothing scientific has ever come from religion. Modern science didn’t get it’s start until hundreds of years after the gospels were written by man. By the way at that time they still believed the world was flat and sea monsters really existed too! the basis for freedom in America • Oh that’s too easy, just google a bit and you’ll find out really quick what the founding fathers thought of religion, especially christianity, I could site examples but this post is long enough… • Oh and if you’re talking religion and freedom you are hanging yourself in this debate. The bible is FULL of slavery! PLUS it even tells you how much your slaves are worth financially as well as instructions on how you can rape your own slaves! Isn’t that a great book to found a nation of freedom on? • However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) • When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21 ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/ohwell.gif) -11 NLT) • , hundreds if not thousands of hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters and food banks around the world. • One cannot deny the pervasive nature of religion in our society and that’s why it’s so difficult to get rid of. Kind of like roaches, you see 1 religious thing and there are probably 10 you missed. But in any case, my point is you cannot claim does all this wonderful stuff and just ignore the atrocities committed in the name of religion. I don’t doubt that there are many wonderful people working in charitable organizations that truly do want to help people. This I do not doubt…. BUT what about the Vatican for example? christ preached numerous times on how a rich man cannot enter heaven, how only a poor man can follow him, how a person must give away everything to enter his light. How does the richest religion/nation on earth reconcile going against the teaching of its #1 prophet? All I can say to that is WTF? With the wealth in the church (*estimated will into the hundreds of billions) they could pretty much cure poverty and starvation by being CHIRSTIAN and giving to the poor instead of buying 2 foot tall hats or paying to relocate child molesters … Nor would we have many of the world's most prestigious universities, *Universities have been founded by numerous organizations, religion can’t claim all of them. Plus when you consider ~95% of the world’s scientists are atheists I think it’s clear where modern teachings reside. or works of architecture, *yup you’ve got some nice buildings in the world… too bad that money wasn’t given to the poor as your messiah instructed! historical documentation, • I assume you’re referring to the bible… well you may want to improve your standard as to what you call a historical document; o The bible was put together by committee of men from gospels written 100-200 years after the supposed events took place o The bible contradicts itself in numerous places, if it was factual this would not occur the very basis for our nation's existence, *not quite… freedom from taxation without representation seems to come to mind as a major cause (as was religious FREEDOM which includes freedom FROM religion and separation between church and state) >>> 3. Without the bible he wouldn’t have these 2000 year old, man-made, homophobic fairy tales to throw in everyone’s face. Are you really proposing that without religion there would be no bigotry? LOL!!! Wow. I cannot disagree more strongly. See if Stalin or Hirohito or Mao, or Hitler can guide you to truth on this issue. * no I do not state that however I do know there would be less! The mormons actually had policies in place stating blacks couldn’t be priests or hold church offices until the 1978! The bible itself talks about the mark of cain etc etc… again you go back to that same point I addressed already… >>> Without the bible he’d just be another nut on the corner holding up a stupid sign. You mean like the minions who follow the preaching of Al Gore? *why do you keep bringing up global warming which has not been proven with 100% certainty on EITHER SIDE? At best it’s irrelevant to a discussion about the impact of religion on society. Did Marx use a bible? • Again with this guy… Lemme see, you are insulting a lot of folks by referring to that which we hold as truth, history and sacred as "fairy tales." *To be insulting is not my intent, however I have no problem being irreverent when it comes to religion as see no need to respect something that has proven to be harmful to society time and time again. I could use terms like b*llsh*t etc etc but while I’m fine being irreverent, I do not care to stoop to derogatory name calling just to get a rise out of people. Your *sorry to nit pick but this should be you’re, a contraction of ‘you are’… a find example of how swell atheists can be. In my view, your [ *Again with the ‘you’re’ ] not much better than the Westboro jerks. But you are right and they're wrong. Is that it? They think exactly the same way. Nice club you're in. *Well I am depressed, while your argument up to this point had its holes and flaws at least you had avoided descending into petty name calling, until now. This is a definite sign of your own doubt of your own religion whether you admit it publicly or not. When people are backed into a corner they lash out, it’s instinctive (fight or flight). Now that you see your argument isn’t holding up you’re starting to lash out at me, a person who’s done you no harm. While I have no respect for your religion I do have respect for you as a human being and will not respond in kind. It’s this type of lashing out that shows another danger of religion, when people are forced to review their own beliefs or those beliefs are questioned they react with anger and eventually violence. >>> 4. Without government tax breaks for the church they might not have the finances to pull off these hateful protests!!!!! Please lay out the math on that for me, I'm uncertain what you are talking about. Pastors, preachers, ministers, rabiis, etc all pay income tax. Not sure how the church figures into it. *Yes it is true that INDIVIDUALS taking a salary from a church are subject to tax. I am referring to the fact that religions as an organization are not. Imagine if the gov’t got 25% of all the money going to organized religion? You want a tax cut for the average person, well there it is, just start taxing churches. id=96099%2C00.html,http://www.irs.gov/charities/ch aritable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html Plus according to this law “The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests” … Take a look at vatican city, does it look like the money goes to the poor or somewhere else? Point being, if the churches were taxed appropriately they might not have the capital to pull off some of these horrible things. It costs money to transport a van full of nuts from funeral to funeral. >>> 5. If more people learned about religion and the horrific power it continues to wield over mankind maybe more of his followers would have the courage to leave. You might as well be saying that "if more children learned about parents and school and the horrific power they continue to wield over them, maybe more children would have the courage to leave. Sounds really stupid huh. Not sure where you got your miserably twisted view of Christianity, but it is entirely inaccurate. Look for truth. Stop spreading hate and miserableness. *again with the insults… sigh… the point is that people need to be able to see what the church has done in the past and is continuing to do. If people keep their blinders on then children will continue to get molested, people in Africa will continue to die from AIDS at a horrific rate, people will continue to use god as a justification for violence. This isn’t a twisted view, everything I’m stating is factual and can be backed up by physical evidence from multiple sources and I’ve cited many in this reply so I do not think it’s ‘stupid’. However your statement about children, parents and school doesn’t make sense. Can you clarify your point? *Also, I’m not spreading hate or misery in any way. I’ve insulted no person or group of people, I’m poking holes in an antiquated belief system that dates back to the bronze age but that’s the extent of any malice I may have. Now let’s get back to the point, religions impact on society as that’s the topic of this thread, (what WBC did to this poor grieving family…) >>> 6. If more atheists voiced their opinions and showed people that it’s ok NOT to believe in an imaginary friend after your 5th birthday, maybe more of his followers would spend time volunteering at their local VA hospital instead of wasting time and money on spreading hate. Again, Marx and all his followers have tried that. Exactly how many "followers" do you imagine Westboro has anyway, more than a couple dozen? Yet you are condemning all of Christianity because of them? Shall I mention the great works of mass murder, brutality, oppression of the world's atheists again? Are you really ignorant of the innumerable good works of Christians the world over? * Wow you’re really into this atheists are the cause of evil point aren’t you… well cite some evidence and I’ll be happy to go into it further but I believe my first rebuttal to that point is sufficient. I am not singling out christians either, I’m talking about all religions across the board. By the way there have been around 2500-3500 gods over the span of human history that we can account for, do you really REALLY think you’ve got the ‘right one’? I’m always amazed how one religion can ridicule another, let’s cite some examples you may have heard of… google them if you want sources, this post is getting way too long… mormons believe some guy read the book of mormon out of a hat with a couple magic rocks wearing special underwear "provides protection against temptation and evil" black people can become white people if they are good enough mormons scientologists believe people need to be audited by e-meters regularly to remove impure thetans aw heck these guys are too easy, moving on… christians believe a guy built a boat sufficient to carry 2 from every species on the planet, just look at the numbers http://www.thereasonists.com/2010/02/noahs-arc-sta tistics.html a guy lived inside a fish for three days see a pattern forming? If you are not PART of the religion in question of course it looks completely absurd. If you’ve been indoctrinated since birth then it’s a little harder to see through the years of constant brainwashing. This is why atheists need to speak up and tell people it is OK to question their religion. I’m not calling you an idiot for believing, I’m not thinking less of you as a person, I think you’re an average person trying to do the right thing in life just like the rest of the population. >>> I’m a disabled Desert Shield/Storm vet Thank you for your service and for being willing to risk and endure your injury in service to our great nation, under God. *Ah the wonderful ‘under god’ thing, “It might be of interest that the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't officially recognized by Congress until 1942 and the words, "under God," were not put into the pledge until 1954.” http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/pledge .html Many of the founding fathers again were very clear about their stance on religion, if you want quotes let me know, there are a ton, and they didn’t like religion much… >>> What really gets to me is when I see a small child holding one of their dead soldier signs, the kid probably can’t even read the words yet but they’re being forced to spew hate. That’s just wrong… A'men to THAT! *hey we agree on TWO things now! Woohoo! Buells rock and kids shouldn’t have to preach hate… >>> Now for all you religious folks… Zealotry precludes intelligent debate. One must be willing to see the whole truth, all sides and all aspects of an issue. It's clear that you choose to only see bad in religious faith, which is incredibly inaccurate. I've listed some of the contradictory points above, there are more, many, many more. If you want to be honest, you ought to try to learn about them. *So I take it then you believe in the bible yes? Then you believe it is the word of god as the bible says And thus you believe it is perfect as god is perfect (scriptures also attest to this) If you agree with the bible and its teachings then you are also agreeing with; *child abuse *child murder *mass murder *slavery *rape *human sacrifice *deception (*both god and jesus clearly admit to lying in the scriptures) *intolerance, the bible clearly states that nonbelievers are to be killed Deuteronomy 17 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. * ever worked on Sunday? Then you’ve violated the covenant and you are supposed to be killed. * ever have your children talk back? They are supposed to be killed, or at minimum beaten. Simply put you cannot ‘cherry pick’ the handful of good things that are in the bible and discard the vast array of nastiness that’s also included. To do so is saying that those words of god no longer apply and if he and his word are infallible these words would always apply would they not? >>> If you’re on the fence about religion and have questions about getting out just… You are wrong. I encourage EVERYONE to please read the bible! I've read it. I read it. Most importantly, I endeavor to understand it. More folks find faith through the Bible than any other means. * I’m not surprised by your claim, I don’t doubt you’ve read at least parts of the bible and maybe the entire thing. If you did and you can be comfortable being part of an organization that condones the nastiness I listed above I really don’t know what to tell you other than ‘read it again’ and don’t skip over the bits when the loving forgiving god is exterminating a few thousand people for irritating him with a cow statue. As recorded in the Gospels, Jesus used many parables to communicate his teachings. If you've read the bible, you must be familiar with them. Most are fairly simple. Which was your favorite, and why? If you don't answer any other question I've asked, answer that one. *ah the parable argument, this part of the bible is ‘fact’ and this part is ‘parable’. I’ve always found that the weakest possible argument considering it is ALL supposed to be the word of god. Claiming the silly parts are parables is just a get out of the debate free card and I do not accept that. Of the 2 million or so killed in the bible were they all parables and god never killed, or directed someone to kill, anyone? Well I think I’ve stated my case fairly clearly and I’ve cited examples and shown evidence for my points. I believe I’ve answered your questions clearly, where possible, or asked for clarification. Don’t forget, if you are christian and you see anyone working on the sabbath it is your duty to kill them! … I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die... (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) superdave | ||
| Jaimec |
This has gotten WAYY too deep for me. I'm going to go discuss "okra" now. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
are writing law to ban them and the news said the Governor is going to sign it into law ----- it might get ugly in Arizona. If I was in that state I would SO be there with the bikers! IS THAT TRUE??? THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!! MANY OTHER STATES WOULD FOLLOW!! (Message edited by xdigitalx on January 12, 2011) | ||
| Court |
logorrhea I'm a Christian. The nice thing about knowing what you believe is that it doesn't take 6,000 to convince yourself, or anyone else. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, I don't believe you've read the bible as you don't even know what a parable is. A parable is a story. Jesus told many such stories to illustrate his points. If you'd read the bible, you'd know that. The parable of the mustard seed is one, the prodigal son is another. They are earthly stories used to teach and illustrate a philosophical/spiritual truth. So I ask again, which of the parables that Jesus told is your favorite, and why? If you cannot answer that, my time is best invested elsewhere. What I've read of your diatribe above is frighteningly ignorant, misinformed, inaccurate, incredibly bigoted and hostile not to mention intolerant. | ||
| Blake |
I'd add just one more suggestion; educate yourself on the meaning of the old and new covenants. Your bewildering ignorance of that concept is surprising, if as you claim, you've read the bible. So to your willingness to ignore historical context. Three and four millennia ago was quite different from today. It appears to me that you've just pulled a bunch of verses and misrepresentations and lies from the web sites of anti-Christian bigots. (Message edited by blake on January 12, 2011) | ||
| Whisperstealth |
>>>The rest of you recommending violence to counteract Phelps can just go to HELL - and I mean that with all sincerity. Gee, is not telling someone to go to HELL a violent thought and suggestion? Does not HELL conjure images of violence, horrible death, and suffering? Good to know you respond to violence, with violence yourself. Good to know you would have someone dead and in hell for breaking someone else's leg. An eye for an eye, or even a head for an eye. Sounds just as logical as wanting to give the Phelps gang a beat down in the first place. | ||
| Blake |
Well known figure of speech. I don't like it either, but I know what he is meaning. | ||
| Ourdee |
Sorry Blake, My intent was not to advocate the murder of anyone, Just pointing out the miss-use of the .22. It is great for plinking, hunting, and a favorite for assassins, but, not a good tool to cause bleeding out. Thank you for the rebuke. My thoughts were still nowhere near right. Thanks. | ||
| Britchri10 |
Favorite parable: The Good Samaritan. Religious beliefs: None. Religious upbringing: Wesleyan/Methodist. Like all good books the text of the bible is there & is open to each individual's interpretation of any message they may perceive to be within the text. I have no brief with believers or non-believers. I respect their right to choose. Do unto others.... would probably be my credo in life. (I would need to think about all the quotations that the bible holds to actually finalize my choice). I don't believe in a higher life form, I have no problem with anyone that does as my beliefs (or otherwise) are my own. If I am held accountable for my values at a later date I will be able to hold my head high & say that I believe, what I believe. Y'all can believe whatever you want to. Until your beliefs/actions directly effect me or my family, just live, & let live. Amen. | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Blake; I’ll ignore your little snip there, I’m quite familiar with what a parable is. I’m also quite familiar with how christians misuse this term to best suit their argument at the time. If the story fits best logically then it’s word for word historical fact, if it doesn’t then it ‘must’ be a parable. Sorry you can’t say this part of the book is fact and the part is a story when the actual author says nothing of the sort. If you can cite some evidence that would be helpful. >>So I ask again, which of the parables that Jesus told is your favorite, and why? *I do not have one. I wouldn’t listen to much jesus has to say because he is ‘god’ and ‘god’ does some horrific stuff in the bible. I don’t consider rape, murder and domestic abuse good character traits. If you cannot answer that, my time is best invested elsewhere. *why the ultimatum? If I don’t believe what you do then I’m less of a person somehow and not worthy of the respect of a ‘christian’? What I've read of your diatribe above is frighteningly ignorant, misinformed, inaccurate, incredibly bigoted and hostile not to mention intolerant. *Provide your examples and cite evidence please. Every point made was cited and if not, can be and I’d be happy to do so. If I’m misinformed then point me to the evidence, if I’m inaccurate point to the correct scripture etc. By the way I’m FAR from bigoted, intolerant and hostile and I think the posts speak for themselves. Let’s keep it simple, one question at a time back and forth how’s that? (keeps posts shorter too!) OK I answered regarding the parable, I do not have one. Now here’s my question for you (as previously stated). Let’s focus on intolerance since you believe I am somehow intolerant; *So I take it then you believe in the bible yes? Then you believe it is the word of god as the bible says and thus you believe it is perfect as god is perfect (scriptures also attests to this) If you agree with the bible and its teachings then you are also agreeing with; *child abuse *child murder *mass murder *slavery *rape … *intolerance, the bible clearly states that nonbelievers are to be killed Deuteronomy 17 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. How do you defend a deity that condones murder for someone with a differing opinion? A good christian does as the bible instructs correct? Would you then as a ‘good christian’ be obligated to kill me? What about any jewish, buddhist or muslim members of this forum, will your god kill them? superdave | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Blake pt 2 - >>I'd add just one more suggestion; educate yourself on the meaning of the old and new covenants. Your bewildering ignorance of that concept is surprising, if as you claim, you've read the bible. So to your willingness to ignore historical context. Three and four millennia ago was quite different from today. *Please cite your evidence or clarify your point. Where am I ignorant and in what way? If my ignorance is ‘bewildering’ this should be an easy question for you to answer. In keeping with the 1 for 1 concept this is my only question in this post. As far as ‘historical context’, 3-4 millennia ago etc, you hit the nail on the head! At that time we thought the world was flat, the ocean was full of sea monsters and that spitting on a wound healed it among plenty of other superstitious nonsense. Back then slavery was the norm, women were second class citizens at best and there was no educational system at whatsoever, knowledge was closely guarded. Don't forget that the church BURNED AT THE STAKE the first person to ever translate the bible to English. (http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-hi story/william-tyndale.html) >>It appears to me that you've just pulled a bunch of verses and misrepresentations and lies from the web sites of anti-Christian bigots. *incorrect, I search for facts and where I find them is simply where I find them. The bible verses come from various sources and can be easily verified. If there is a lie somewhere then explain it, cite your evidence and I’ll be happy to research it further. I don’t claim to know everything like the church does. superdave | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Court - RE - logorrhea - good word, I had to look it up I always did have a problem with run-on sentences... | ||
| Court |
I think you are thinking of a fused sentence, also known as a "run on" sentence. Where did you look it up? . . if you say "The Bible" . . I'm leaving.
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