| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
You're kidding, right? If GOD can't pass judgment, who can?? If you believe Biblical teachings, judgment is God's alone! Back in the Good Old Days (if you believe in the Old Testament) God passed judgment ALL THE TIME! (Message edited by jaimec on January 11, 2011) | ||
| Court |
>>>You're kidding, right? If GOD can't pass judgment, who can?? I just don't think he asked for or needs our advice on how to mete it out . . . Like it or not . . we live in a country, and under a rule of law, that allows assholes the same rights as everyone else. | ||
| 86129squids |
Good debate, but nobody's responded to my post: Coming and going to any given "protest", what are their weaknesses? We've established that they're lawyered out the wazoo, but how clever are they? Given enough study of their modus operandi, I'll bet they have a few chinks in their armor- which is basically just the 1st Amendment... Got up early yesterday morning and got to watch the poor girl's mom and dad on the teevee shows- absolutely broke my heart. That the Westboro degenerates are planning to protest might be a "given" nowadays, but simply because they're protected by hiding behind "free speech" doesn't mean we should give up the search to find ways of shutting them down! | ||
| Court |
>>>but how clever are they? Very. They've been doing this for years. I learned . . perhaps it comes from being in the highly competitive heavy construction business. . that just because a person is your adversary doesn't mean they are not incredibly smart. Act accordingly. | ||
| Jaimec |
Getting back on the Almighty: It's as Lewis Black said... the God of the Old Testament was somewhat of a prick. Having his kid mellowed him out somewhat. | ||
| 86129squids |
Court- I don't doubt that they're very clever, very experienced from years of doing this- my point is this: As the Patriot Guard Riders and others have done, there are bound to be different ways to counter and neutralize them. Kinda makes me wish I was still in school- I once had some great professors in the religious studies and sociology departments, sharp minds, many with a great sense of humor... IIRC, someone mentioned either having seen or maybe just had thought about a troupe of clowns going after them... methinks THIS is a great idea... Come on- let's get creative!!! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The best route to combat them is economically. Deny them their source of revenue by not giving then settlement/money. Second, make it more expensive for them to operate. States can't deny free speech, but they can regulate the manner in which groups collect. Try having a garage sale without a permit? Try having a parade without a permit? Try picketing a business without a permit? Localities simply require that they pay for a permit. Additionally, the locality can require that the protesters cover costs for security. If each foray costs them $5000 (airfare, lodging, gas, food, fees) and they do a couple a month, that's $120,000 deficit that must be overcome. At some point, the bleeding kills the beast. | ||
| Drkside79 |
I hope they all someday feel the pain they are putting on all of the families of those they picket. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
>>>a human chain of protesters literally blocking the protesters from going anywhere is non-violent. people have done this for less meaningful reasons. I disagree! As it applies to protesters in general. It is a very harsh form of passive aggressive. By confining people, you are detaining them with out due process of law. You are taking away one's right to move freely, a freedom expressly given in the 10 amendments. That is illegal. I believe it to be very violent, without raising a fist. The fact that so many have gotten away with it disgusts me. It's a hypocrisy I do not abide by. I have long held that your right's stop, when you take mine away. A line of "protesters" blocking a legal path I have a right to take, are protests I would flat out remove by extreme force, if I could get away with it. A line of people blocking my path while in car, is a line of people asking to get run over. Now, these Westboro creeps? Would I have a problem confining them within 500-1000 yards of a funeral? Nope. 1. They are taking away the right of family and friends of the diseased to have a peaceful funeral. 2. In illegally detaining them I understand I'm breaking the law, and might have to face consequences. - Including the physical, should a westboro creep decide to go that route. 3. They represent something I feel is evil, and should not be allowed to hurt and affect others. - A hypocrisy I'll admit to and accept. Squid, Good on ya, wish you luck. The way I look at it, you have two options: The legal(Would take a lot of time & money), or the illegal (The moral and possible legal consequences.) Usually you cut off a couple of the biggest heads, the body dies. They are practicing lawyers? Which means they are members of the bar? Going after them as a whole might not work, but as individuals maybe the chinks are easier to find. Look for any actions previous/present that would have cause to remove them from the bar? What amazes me, is that they have not been shut down via option two. That they exist in their area/communitee. That someone, somewhere has not taken one or two out. Leads me to believe Blake is on to something. God has a purpose for them as well... ...Not that I wouldn't love to pop a couple of them in the stomach with a 22 and let them bleed out... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Reap what you sow. When Phelps dies, the protest is going to be huge. My guess is that they won't have a public ceremony and will instead cremate him and keep him in an urn. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I guess the same people (tree hugger types) that protest earthly and social things....(enviornmental things etc. etc.) and sacrifice themselves by getting arrested (peacefully) don't dare protest against the wbc because ......why??? I mean.. just protesting the protesters... is a waste. Getting thier hands dirty, the same way they do for other events or whatnot is what needs to be done. CALLING ALL IMATURE POMPAS DUCHEBAG INTERNET BULLIES!!! WTF U DOING WASTING UR TIME ON FACEBOOK!!! | ||
| Hughlysses |
I hope they all someday feel the pain they are putting on all of the families of those they picket. I'm fairly confident all of them will be shoveling coal for all eternity in the afterlife... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Greasy granola professional protester types don't protest WBC because there's no money in it. They go where they are paid and bussed to go. Since they mostly protest soldier funerals and soldiers are viewed to be conservative/establishment, WBC does the war protesting that Code Pink et. al. would do. WBC saves them money. | ||
| Babired |
The documentary I just watched on them Phelps was a lawyer and was disbarred, his daughter is their lawyer now the biggest ugliest loud mouth they have. Phelps son is ready to take over the reins when old man Phelps dies. ACLU supports them in their fight to first admendment rights Their family is raised like a religious cult they attend all of Phelps preaching and demonstrations. There have already been demonstrations at their family funerals but I've never heard of any. All of this info is on the Fall From Grace. We can be hopeful that one day they will abuse their government money or they will focus on some other kind of demonstration other than funerals. They are sick people filled with hate | ||
| Babired |
I knew Father Berrigan and Elizabeth Macalister they were part of the Catonsville 9 I knew them when they used to protest my place of work for years doing the normal peaceful protest no hate involved their mission was to disarm the nukes. Back in the day my company would give them coffee and donuts so they stepped up the demonstrations and did human chains and stuff like that, now when they come on the property ( Berrigan died some years ago, there is this guy named Max O. who took over) now they are arrested on the spot for trespassing. It has been almost 3 years and we haven't seen them. I used to hate it when they set up to sing and hand out leaflets it was a disruption in the normal work day | ||
| Court |
>>>Their family is raised like a religious cult they attend all of Phelps preaching and demonstrations. Close. Not quite accurate. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Why can't/doesn't the Baptist Church shut these whackos down/prevent themselves from claiming to be Baptists? I was raised Baptist, and saw some pretty off the wall preachers....but nothing like these nutjobs....all i knew would pray for your salvation if they thought you needed it....and share the last morsel of food they had with you if you were hungry. I had a preacher when I was a kid that did not wear shoes...when someone asked him why he didn't wear shoes....he would look you in the eyes and say "when all the children in this world have shoes, I will get some for myself" and he meant it. He was a GREAT man who gave completely of himself....completely selfless...I know he is sitting next to Jesus right now. | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Before I start this post let me state this post is not an attack on anybody's right to worship, or NOT worship, as they so choose. I'll be the first person to ask any christian to read their own bible. After all, reading the bible thoroughly is the best way to make a new atheist, it even worked for me... (*yes this is going to be a post with an atheist perspective, if you’re already mad or upset because of that fact just don’t read it…) anyway now on to the post... ... WBC... yet another good example of how nice the world could be without religion… There will always be whack jobs that we have to deal with in life but religion helps these schmucks flourish. Religion provides a pulpit from which they can ramrod their personal agendas, insecurities, fears and bigotries down the throats of their parishioners. Usually preachers this far out from the mainstream are attributed to running cults, however this nut job has an official 'church', not that it makes a difference as one invisible sky god is just as silly of a notion as the next, but it gives him some credibility in the eyes of his followers (however false that credibility may be). With the ‘church’ behind him and the bible in hand he’s able to use these tools to brainwash his congregation into doing things that they may not ordinarily have done if they were of sound mind. Now remember most of the people in this church are related to Phelps and have been subjected to this insanity for years and fully believe his nonsense. In a way you almost (don’t forget I said ALMOST) have to feel sorry for them, at least for their kids anyway. Can you imagine being a 10 year old and thinking all your friends are going to burn in hell (and actually BELIEVE it too?)… what kind of a childhood is that? The immediate argument might be 'why don't they [the parishioners] just leave his church?' which is a valid point, however this also helps illustrate WHY religion is dangerous. In this case leaving the 'church' means leaving your family and everything behind.... in the youtube clip below we see how the life of one member was affected by standing up for what is right and leaving the church. In this case religion destroyed this poor girls relationship with her siblings as well as her parents… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k Now of course this is an extreme case but the basic point remains; 1. Without religion (and the leadership of this incredibly evil pr*ck) we wouldn't have this problem, period… I’m not saying we would be without problems, I’m saying we just would not have WBC and nobody can say that’s not A GOOD THING… without religion he wouldn’t have the tools to do what he’s done… religion gave him the pulpit and the book to start this mess! 2. Without religion we wouldn’t have these unfortunate parishioners being brainwashed regularly into believing his message of hate and intolerance 3. Without the bible he wouldn’t have these 2000 year old, man-made, homophobic fairy tales to throw in everyone’s face. Without the bible he’d just be another nut on the corner holding up a stupid sign. 4. Without government tax breaks for the church they might not have the finances to pull off these hateful protests!!!!! 5. If more people learned about religion and the horrific power it continues to wield over mankind maybe more of his followers would have the courage to leave. 6. If more atheists voiced their opinions and showed people that it’s ok NOT to believe in an imaginary friend after your 5th birthday, maybe more of his followers would spend time volunteering at their local VA hospital instead of wasting time and money on spreading hate. Now don’t think I’m some kind of a sympathizer. When WBC came to my town for a funeral protest, myself and a few others went to lend our support to the family, ok maybe we had a couple other ideas for these WBC folks in particular but we weren’t able to pull anything  . We were constantly monitored by police before, during and AFTER the WBC people left, especially when we tried to ambush them a few miles out of town. To the cops credit they didn’t arrest us, they just made us wait until WBC was a few miles down the road so we couldn’t catch up. Frankly the cops were as mad as we were. I’m a disabled Desert Shield/Storm vet and believe me nothing gets my blood pressure up as fast as these geniuses. What really gets to me is when I see a small child holding one of their dead soldier signs, the kid probably can’t even read the words yet but they’re being forced to spew hate. That’s just wrong… Now for all you religious folks, if you’re planning to flame me then go right ahead, that’s your right. If you’d like to intelligently debate the impact of religion on this topic, or any other, feel free to state your case and I’ll be happy to converse with you. I find theology quite fascinating, its impact is very troubling but interesting nonetheless. If you’re on the fence about religion and have questions about getting out just PM me and I’ll answer you as best I can. I’m not out to convert anyone, you’ll convert yourself once you read the bible… superdave | ||
| Ourdee |
Superdave, I don't have a flaming for you. If someone is on the fence and needs a PM of the other side of Dave's coin, I'll be your huckleberry. Dave, I've read the Satanic bible, Salmon Rushdies' work, the NIV bible, the KJV bible over 13 times, and 5 or 6 other versions. I've listened to it on tape a few times. This has only served to take me further away from Atheism. My thoughts have been not good when thinking about the WBC. That bleeding out comment is a wrong use of a .22. It is better used by letting he bullet bounce around inside the cranium. FtB', Let me know where they put the urn is and I'll knock it over. | ||
| Ourdee |
Remove "is" after urn above. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Arizona shooter was a devout atheist. "Freedom" from religion is no guarantee of tranquility. | ||
| Bsdfool |
Having a right is not the same thing as being right. Having a right doesn't make it right to exercise said right. Phelps and co. are wrong in what they are doing and it displays a marked lack of class. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
A bullet to the cranium is way too fast! The idea is to let them experience a lot of pain, maybe even for hours before they kick. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Whisperstealth Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 08:39 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ A bullet to the cranium is way too fast! The idea is to let them experience a lot of pain, maybe even for hours before they kick. Hours? How bout for eternity? Ours is not to judge or to punish folks because they commit evil acts for money in the name of God. However, helping them get there seems appropriate to me. A person who can deliver a 500 yard head shot will come along as soon as they piss off the wrong family. I hope he will be remembered in history as "anonymous". Windage and elevation baby! | ||
| Tom_b |
Superdave you make some very valid points.. The problem isn't faith or belief in whatever form of god one believes in. It is mans interpretation of that belief or how they decide to do "gods" work that turns religion to shit. Just like Westboro(alledged)Baptist beliefs are no more god like than me pissing in the snow.Actually 2000 years i roughly only the history of christianity. Hebrews can date date back 5000 years. Hiduism is over 6000 yrs old Christianity as world religions go is one of the newer ones (Message edited by tom b on January 11, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
What is wrong with some of you people? Calling for bullets and other violent acts against the Westboro idiots? You are worse than they. They are nothing more than annoying and disturbing. You are condoning murder and arson, SERIOUS crimes and dead wrong! Lose the hate. Otherwise you are only falling victim to them and their leader. Wise up. Jaime, >>> You're kidding, right? If GOD can't pass judgment, who can?? If you believe Biblical teachings, judgment is God's alone! Who is the one passing judgment here, you or God? That was the crux of my point. You are demanding that God get rid of those who annoy you. Uncool. Seek God's will. | ||
| Strato9r |
I'm with you on this one, Blake; as much as these scumbags may deserve to be shut up by violent means, to commit criminal acts to deal with them primarily amounts to an attack on the things which a free society is built upon. Not only that, but one of the extreme dangers that would come of such action would be to turn one of these pieces of excrement into a martyr. That sort of thing rarely turns out well, and the law is deprived of even more of it's leverage in dealing with groups like this when something like that happens. Economic warfare would make the most sense, and when the bucks start getting short for these kind of organizations, they lose credibility quickly, and start to make careless mistakes; just like any other cult. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
I'm sure the air is nice and pure up there on the high ground. Must be nice. Watch out for the nose bleeds though. | ||
| Moxnix |
The air is nice up here. However, we still experience emotions when ordinary lives are sacrificed to/affected by the obsessions of fanatics. | ||
| Blake |
Hey there Superdave, >>> Before I start this post let me state this post is not an attack on anybody's right to worship, or NOT worship, as they so choose. Cool! Attacks suck! >>> I'll be the first person to ask any christian to read their own bible. I agree, many don't actually read the whole thing. Lot's of great information in there not presented during Sunday scripture readings. I recommend bible study too, since knowing the historical facts and context surrounding the writings is vital to truly understanding the meaning of it all. >>> After all, reading the bible thoroughly is the best way to make a new atheist, it even worked for me... Ignorance comes in all shapes and forms, Christians, atheists, agnostics. Funny how the lifespans and levels of happiness for folks who adhere to their religious faith are significantly greater than those who don't. Explain? Atheists are responsible for by far the most horrendously injust inhumanity, atrocities, and crimes against humanity the world has ever seen. That is an irrefutable fact. Jesus on the other hand suffered and died for all mankind so that we might be forgiven our sins and enjoy eternal life in heaven, and he taught that we should treat each other as we would like to be treated. How terrible? Huh? >>> (*yes this is going to be a post with an atheist perspective, if you’re already mad or upset because of that fact just don’t read it…) We've been talking facts and ideas, no need to preface anything of that sort. We'll weigh your ideas on their merits alone, on truthfulness, on validity, on substance. That's all.  >>> ... WBC... yet another good example of how nice the world could be without religion… Please compare contrast how nice the world would be without atheism, predicated on the fact that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Pol Pot were all atheists and that Marxist Communism is atheistic. Let's see, hundreds of millions starved, murdered, imprisoned, tortured and brutalized by atheists versus how many people annoyed and disturbed at some funerals? >>> There will always be whack jobs that we have to deal with in life but religion helps these schmucks flourish. Lemme see, is global warming a religion? Is Marxism a religion? Is PETA a religion? Are the various enviro-extremist movements religions? Are labor unions religions? Lemme see, I haven't seen any Christian hordes killing anyone lately, or burning down homes, or throwing fake blood on people, or trying to steal my property, or beating people up outside political events, or killing congresswomen and judges and little girls. Oops, that last one was an atheist. Sorry 'bout that. Chalk one more set of murders up for the unbelievers. >>> Religion provides a pulpit from which they can ramrod their personal agendas, insecurities, fears and bigotries down the throats of their parishioners. Preachers like that usually don't have congregations, unless they play to insecure racists; you know like "Reverend" Wright, our president's former minister? Louis Farakan comes to mind too. Mostly though, ministers, rabbis and the like provide moral guidance and spiritual inspiration for the good of mankind, from my experience at least. What atheist organizations are providing billions of dollars in charitable services and humanitarian relief to the needy of the world? >>> Usually preachers this far out from the mainstream are attributed to running cults, however this nut job has an official 'church', not that it makes a difference as one invisible sky god is just as silly of a notion as the next, but it gives him some credibility in the eyes of his followers (however false that credibility may be). "An official church"? You too can have one. Simply register and there you go. I truly have no idea what you mean. Seems like nothing more than anti-religious bigotry. Bigotry sucks by the way. >>> With the ‘church’ behind him and the bible in hand he’s able to use these tools to brainwash his congregation into doing things that they may not ordinarily have done if they were of sound mind. Now remember most of the people in this church are related to Phelps and have been subjected to this insanity for years and fully believe his nonsense. In a way you almost (don’t forget I said ALMOST) have to feel sorry for them, at least for their kids anyway. Can you imagine being a 10 year old and thinking all your friends are going to burn in hell (and actually BELIEVE it too?)… what kind of a childhood is that? I guess I'm not as familiar with Westboro as you. What that Westboro preaches leads to you believe that their children will be convinced that all their friends will burning in hell? Not that it matters, we pretty much agree on the sacreligious nature of Westboro. >>> The immediate argument might be 'why don't they [the parishioners] just leave his church?' which is a valid point, however this also helps illustrate WHY religion is dangerous. In this case leaving the 'church' means leaving your family and everything behind.... People do it all the time. >>> in the youtube clip below we see how the life of one member was affected by standing up for what is right and leaving the church. In this case religion destroyed this poor girls relationship with her siblings as well as her parents… Religion destroyed it? Or people did?  Seek truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50r0CnKq7_k >>> Now of course this is an extreme case but the basic point remains; 1. Without religion (and the leadership of this incredibly evil pr*ck) we wouldn't have this problem, period… I’m not saying we would be without problems, I’m saying we just would not have WBC Okay. That is a valid point. Without atheism we'd not have had Marxist Communism. >>> and nobody can say that’s not A GOOD THING… (not having Westboro) I really cannot answer that. As I posted previously, the miserable jerks have indeed united a VAST conglomeration of Americans in opposition to their outrageous behavior. Is that not a good thing? Who are you to say or know for certain? >>> without religion he wouldn’t have the tools to do what he’s done… religion gave him the pulpit and the book to start this mess! Nonsense. Most any issue of one's choosing can be whipped into a cause of stirring import for some or in a few cased for very many. Take Marxism, naziism, enviromentalism, unionism, and yes atheism for example. ALL have been exploited, some by inherent core design, to justify and cajole people into outrageous acts. >>> 2. Without religion we wouldn’t have these unfortunate parishioners being brainwashed regularly into believing his message of hate and intolerance. We also wouldn't have the MASSIVE outpouring of humanitarian good works, some of the most amazing accomplishments of mankind including in science, the basis for freedom in America, hundreds if not thousands of hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, homeless shelters and food banks around the world. Nor would we have many of the world's most prestigious universities, or works of architecture, historical documentation, the very basis for our nation's existence, FREEDOM, the driving force compelling so many to revere virtue over vice, and the recognition that evil does exist and must be opposed. >>> 3. Without the bible he wouldn’t have these 2000 year old, man-made, homophobic fairy tales to throw in everyone’s face. Are you really proposing that without religion there would be no bigotry? LOL!!! Wow. I cannot disagree more strongly. See if Stalin or Hirohito or Mao, or Hitler can guide you to truth on this issue. >>> Without the bible he’d just be another nut on the corner holding up a stupid sign. You mean like the minions who follow the preaching of Al Gore? Did Marx use a bible? Lemme see, you are insulting a lot of folks by referring to that which we hold as truth, history and sacred as "fairy tales." Your a find example of how swell atheists can be. In my view, your not much better than the Westboro jerks. But you are right and they're wrong. Is that it? They think exactly the same way. Nice club you're in. >>> 4. Without government tax breaks for the church they might not have the finances to pull off these hateful protests!!!!! Please lay out the math on that for me, I'm uncertain what you are talking about. Pastors, preachers, ministers, rabiis, etc all pay income tax. Not sure how the church figures into it. >>> 5. If more people learned about religion and the horrific power it continues to wield over mankind maybe more of his followers would have the courage to leave. You might as well be saying that "if more children learned about parents and school and the horrific power they continue to wield over them, maybe more children would have the courage to leave. Sounds really stupid huh. Not sure where you got your miserably twisted view of Christianity, but it is entirely inaccurate. Look for truth. Stop spreading hate and miserableness. >>> 6. If more atheists voiced their opinions and showed people that it’s ok NOT to believe in an imaginary friend after your 5th birthday, maybe more of his followers would spend time volunteering at their local VA hospital instead of wasting time and money on spreading hate. Again, Marx and all his followers have tried that. Exactly how many "followers" do you imagine Westboro has anyway, more than a couple dozen? Yet you are condemning all of Christianity because of them? Shall I mention the great works of mass murder, brutality, oppression of the world's atheists again? Are you really ignorant of the innumerable good works of Christians the world over? >>> I’m a disabled Desert Shield/Storm vet Thank you for your service and for being willing to risk and endure your injury in service to our great nation, under God. >>> What really gets to me is when I see a small child holding one of their dead soldier signs, the kid probably can’t even read the words yet but they’re being forced to spew hate. That’s just wrong… A'men to THAT! >>> Now for all you religious folks, if you’re planning to flame me then go right ahead, that’s your right. If you’d like to intelligently debate the impact of religion on this topic, or any other, feel free to state your case and I’ll be happy to converse with you. I find theology quite fascinating, its impact is very troubling but interesting nonetheless. Zealotry precludes intelligent debate. One must be willing to see the whole truth, all sides and all aspects of an issue. It's clear that you choose to only see bad in religious faith, which is incredibly inaccurate. I've listed some of the contradictory points above, there are more, many, many more. If you want to be honest, you ought to try to learn about them. >>> If you’re on the fence about religion and have questions about getting out just PM me and I’ll answer you as best I can. I’m not out to convert anyone, you’ll convert yourself once you read the bible… ; ) You are wrong. I encourage EVERYONE to please read the bible! I've read it. I read it. Most importantly, I endeavor to understand it. More folks find faith through the Bible than any other means. As recorded in the Gospels, Jesus used many parables to communicate his teachings. If you've read the bible, you must be familiar with them. Most are fairly simple. Which was your favorite, and why? If you don't answer any other question I've asked, answer that one. |
