| Author | Message | ||
     Budgolf |
Blake, it's an issue that's contested between countries, but contested hotly enough that the only time CS can be used in a combat situation is defensively. While I guess illegal was the wrong word to use, it's restricted enough that it's use usually requires a presidential order (though that authority can be delegated). Long story short, most JAG's will tell you it's use is a violation of the 1993 Chemical weapons convention. So it is not used. In 12 years of service, and several combat deployments, the only time I've ever seen it used was on me. (in the gas chamber) My point was, the military is restricted much more in the way we have to deal with the enemy vs. the way our authorities at home deal with us and our fellow citizens. Just seems kind of backwards to me. Take the 84 year old drunk guy for example. http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/septembe r/152865/WWII-vet-suffers-broken-neck-after-police -takedown Sure the guy was wrong. And I'm sure the cop was well within his rights to protect himself. But you can't subdue an 84 year old man without throwing him to the ground and breaking his neck? While I think this cop surely needed to do something, his escalation of force was a bit off. You see examples of this all the time. The people were wrong, and the cops needed to do something, but the cops get themselves in trouble because the force they used was out of control. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
It was 5 batton hits by the officer standing up, one comes late. Two by the officer kneeling. Here are my takes: 1.Chris Rock is Right! There is nothing good going down on MLK after dark. Got the beat down on Lamar, just saying... Agree with Pwnzor, he was knocked off/away from the bike and stumbling. One, maybe two strikes would have been okay. But once the blood starts flowing hard to just turn it off, I know. That is why the first strike should not have happened. LEO's are and should be held to a higher standard, still it was not as bad a beat down as I was expecting... Whatever, They KNOW there is NO chance they are getting lucky! Beauty nullified. Got hit with three tazers once. The first two I took, the third buckled me. I have to say I've had more good / not bad encounters with LEO's than bad ones. More than once I gave officers reason to give me a beat down, but was shown incredible restraint. - Plenty of witnesses might have played a part. Another time I was just about to get "Tuned Up" behind a strip mall by two cops, while in cuffs, when they got a call on the radio telling them to get to the jail pronto. Point is, some are assholes, some are really great, most are in the middle. Just like the rest of society. The time with tazers, I was doing my best to get them to shoot me and end it. They didn't, I ended up in one hospital, then another, and I'm still here. I never meet them, but I thank the officers for not pulling the trigger that day. Those types of things stopped happening once I quite drinking. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Matt is now recalling old bruises and thinking, "DANG! Wish I'd known that!" LOL Blake! by law it is. I stand corrected. California Penal Code 148(a)(1) states "resisting, delaying, or otherwise obstructing an officer or EMT while he/she is engaged in (or attempting to engage in) the performance of his/her duties." This is painted with a very broad brush. The act itself is a misdemeanor punishable by up to 1 year in the county slammer and/or $1000 fine. Either way, my opinion (which supplants the law in all cases) remains that simply running shouldn't be a crime. Think about it: everybody who has access to internet has seen countless videos of cops beating people up. Here comes a cop running towards you. "HOLY SHIT", thinks the citizen and takes off as fast as his legs will carry him. I will say that twice in my life I have run from the police. Twice I got away, once (on my 1986 Yamaha XT600) totally clean and once (on foot) a very, very close race. Both those times would have resulted in an infraction if I had just sat there and took my citation. Any time I've been rolling with multiple felonies I've pulled over immediately, because of the following word: ENHANCEMENT This one word makes the difference between one year with no strikes and SIX years with two strikes. After seven months in court and $22,000 in legal fees, the falsified arrest report having completely disappearing from the public record, all that got thrown out was that enhancement charge. I still got pinned with two felonies and had to serve a year followed by 3 years of high control probation (which cost me a further $6,200) Meanwhile, gang bangers roll in and out of the joint like it's a summer home. Pwnzor, I seem to like you more and more I'm a likable sort.  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
I think if you have ever been in a situation where one of these uniformed officers has actually saved your life and know damn well and sure that you would be six feet under if they had not been there for you, it just might change your perspective a little bit... just sayin... that is my experience... it is really easy to sit in judgement when it is a video on the internet... me, myself, at least two distinct times owe my life to a Dane Co Deputy and a Waukesha Co Deputy... I do not know their names and probably would not even recognize them if I ran into them on the street... but they are a few people I hold in the highest regard... i am sure my perspective would a little bit. i tend to not get into trouble and speaking this situation that's shown in the video is what i take issue with. we all have our own stories which impacts our point of view. truth is i'd rather be smacked a few times with a baton than be tazed. granted i've never been tazed but i have been shocked more than a few times and i hate that hate it bad. just hope i never find myself in a situation that it matters though. | ||
| Sifo |
Ok... I found where the one officer made the comment "Get up beside and I'll beat the s*&t outta him" @ about the 1:09 mark. This sounds more like trying to get next to him while he's still riding to try to get him to stop, not premeditation to beat him once he's under control. A few things I see that have been misrepresented in the video... 1) The cop didn't knock him off the bike. Looks like a controlled hit that rolled the bumper on top of the wheel disabling the bike. The rider was still sitting on the bike at this point, then dismounted and ran. Good driving skills on the cop's part for this. 2) It's clear the rider took off running off the video screen. The rider comes back into screen as he is tackled by the cop on the left (presumably the driver). The second cop is close behind with the club. This was a physical take down, and while it's very hard to tell, it has the earmarks of the biker struggling against the cops (you can see the first cop on top of him and it appears that there's a lot of movement going on, but you can't directly see the biker). So a few hits with the baton and a couple of punches from the other cop, then it all stops. This looks like a perp that was taken down and subdued to me. My guess is the biker knew it too and didn't bother making any sort of case of it. The investigation was sparked by another cop that turned them in? It didn't come from a complaint from the biker? It didn't come from investigating any injuries the biker got? No mention of any hospital visit at all? Could the same result have been achieved without the baton? Probably. Another possible outcome is that the biker wrestles the gun from the cop and people wind up dead. Getting into any physical confrontation with an armed cop is a very dangerous situation that needs to be diffused very quickly. From what I can see on the video, I'm guessing the cops will be back on the job shortly. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ok so it is my understanding of the law and judicial system that you are innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. Now I did not see any where in that tape a judge or a jury in that situation. So my question is why does this guy get a punishment with out being proven he is guilty like the law say. I am not saying what he did was right by any means but I mean dang I sure don't want to get whacked up side the head by a cop because I do something wrong if thats not what the judge says my sentence should be. | ||
| Blake |
"he was knocked off/away from the bike and stumbling." It's bewildering how you can see that. I don't see that at all. I see the guy frantically trying to get the bike going, then when nudged by the cop car he dismounts and makes a run for it. For all we know the guy took a swing at the officer driving the car as he pursued. Righteous beating, no question from my view of the video. Whisperstealth, I've never heard of ANYONE being able to "take" a tazing. The electrodes fail to penetrate skin? Or are you a mutant? | ||
| Blake |
>>> So my question is why does this guy get a punishment with out being proven he is guilty like the law say. He is being apprehended and subdued, not punished. In that the officers have a right to protect themselves. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Righteous beating, Oxymoron? In that the officers have a right to protect themselves. Holy smokes. Are we all watching the same video? The guy got fired. Doesn't that tell you something? Police have an incestuous problem of protecting their own to a point when they actually do fire someone the evidence must be overwhelming. I just wish the City of Dallas didn't have to bear the financial brunt of this dolt's actions. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Some of you guys should volunteer to be this cop's attorney when he gets sued. You are making up shit any defense attorney would be proud of. They premeditated beating this guy from the beginning. Lucky for us, these cops are so stupid they announced it to the voice recorder and continued to carry out the threat on camera. Bravo! | ||
| Tpoppa |
The guy got fired. Doesn't that tell you something? Police have an incestuous problem of protecting their own to a point when they actually do fire someone the evidence must be overwhelming. Exactly. And they tried to protect their own and broke laws in the process. He and Bauer will be charged with assault, official oppression and tampering with or fabricating evidence. Officer Henry Walter Duetsch also will be charged with tampering with or fabricating evidence because Brown said he turned the dash camera in one squad car. Why would a cop turn off his dash cam if he was planning to arrest this guy 'by the book?' They knew they were wrong & tried to cover it up. They were fired and are being charged. Sounds right to me. And to top it off, the Cheif himself said this: “Every citizen deserves a measure of respect. As Chief of police for the city of Dallas, I expect citizens to hold me accountable for insuring that Dallas officers treat all citizens with fairness and compassion,” Brown said. "No one is above the laws of this great country and I expect officers observing any of their peers violating the law or the department’s rules to report those violations immediately.” Brown said he believes the incident was a big deal because of the premeditation and lack of apparent motive. If you still defend the cops actions, your reading comprehension is sorely limited. (Message edited by tpoppa on September 22, 2010) | ||
| Sifo |
You are making up shit any defense attorney would be proud of. I'm not sure what you think is being made up.  Here we see the cop run up on the back wheel of the bike. Rider is still on.  1 second later the rider is dismounting the bike. He wasn't knocked to the ground as has been claimed.  Another second has passed. The rider is off the bike and starting to leave the frame... On foot... Vertical.  Here you can clearly see that he has completely left the video frame.  Now you can see cop #1 tackling the biker, knocking him back into the video frame. Both are still vertical.  Here you see them both heading toward the ground. Obviously the biker didn't lay down and submit.  Now we see cop #2 coming in to assist. He is coming just after the biker has been tackled on the run and is now struggling with cop #1. You can see the struggle going on in the video quite clearly. Yep, it's time to convince the biker it's time to submit. EDIT: I don't know what's up with the indicated speed. It obviously has some lag in it. (Message edited by SIFO on September 22, 2010) | ||
| Whatever |
It would have been easier to just shoot him...  as a cop told me once "would clean up the gene pool a bit"... when I tried to run over the scum that tried to rob me when I was driving cab. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
Blake, At the time I weighed 350 pounds, Was full of Alcohol, benzo's, some barbiturates, was bleeding, and had a very sick mind. I've also had some sort of strange/high pain tollerence all my life. And have always had a wierd electricity flowing inside. When you get shot with a tazer, and grab the line, to pull it out, the electricity flows through your arm as well. It was when I tried to pull it out I got hit the second time, and turned away. That's when I started to go down as the third hit. When I was transferred from the medical hospital to Sac mental the EMT in the ambulance was excited to see the probe marks in my chest and side. I wasn't in a show and tell mood... I have a pile of medical records to go with the visible scars and memories of that past life, and am grateful to be here today. BTW: Was pulled over tonight. Failure to stop, speeding. Didn't have my wallet - No ID or Insurance card, just my registration in my tank bag. He asked for my name, addy, birth date, where I was going, where I had been etc, and ran the plate. Came back, told me to stop at the stop signs, and slow down. He didn't want to be picking me up off the road... Handed me my regs, and told me to have a goodnight. The good ones don't get enough credit, the bad one's make it hard on the good ones. Just like life  | ||
| Blake |
That's a shocking story. | ||
| Jb2 |
Blake, on one episode of "COPS" they tazed a guy who was strung out on meth. He was a body-builder and simply yanked the probes out since several officers hit him. He injured two police dogs, one severely. It finally took 6 officers and another uninjured dog(owned by a pedestrian on the scene) to bring him down. Even then he was still fighting. | ||
| Pwnzor |
That's a shocking story.  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Just asking... Does not writing a ticket make a cop good? | ||
| S1wmike |
Just asking... Does not writing a ticket make a cop good? I have had good and bad cop experiences and yes some of the good cop experiences did involve me in getting a citation. My police mentality is pull over as soon as you can , be non confrontational and always Yes sir/maam and No sir/maam. it goes a long way. Got some tickets I thought were jokes, but also got let off when I should NOT have. Not getting tickets always makes me feel a little better about that particular officer. Just my 2 cents (Message edited by S1wmike on September 24, 2010) | ||
| Sifo |
I'm curious, if after looking at the stills I pulled from the video, do people still think the firing of the cops over this incident was a correct decision? | ||
| Pwnzor |
No, merely firing them wasn't enough. They should be criminally prosecuted. | ||
| Reducati |
". Think about it: everybody who has access to internet has seen countless videos of cops beating people up. Here comes a cop running towards you. "HOLY SHIT", thinks the citizen and takes off as fast as his legs will carry him. "....or maybe everyone who has access to the internet might think...mphhh maybe if i dont run from the Police, i wont get beat up!!!  | ||
| Whatever |
People on drugs do stupid shit... blame it on the drugs on the drugs on the drugs...  | ||
| Rah7777777 |
Spot on reducati !!!! My thoughts exactly! I think it's crazy they got fired!! What a "pushover" of a police chief! But I see there are too many ............. I'm just gonna stop right there! Ride safe everyone! And don't run from the cops. | ||
| Sifo |
So cops make thousands, if not tens of thousands of stops every single day all across the nation. Out of those we get a couple per year that result in an undeserved beat down. This wasn't one of those from the video. The chances of an undeserved beat down is astronomical. With that kind of ridiculous reasoning you are destined for a beat down yourself, just like the guy in this thread. Great cognitive skills! | ||
| Pwnzor |
There's just no talking to some people. You should be a cop, so you can beat people up whenever you want. Cheers. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
I couldnt be a cop.... my balls are too small!! Different strokes for different folks.... | ||
| Sifo |
There's just no talking to some people. You should be a cop, so you can beat people up whenever you want. Cheers. You aren't trying to talk to me. Don't avoid the facts. What percentage of traffic stops do you think result in undeserved beat downs? You folks sound just a little bit paranoid. Is anyone still claiming that this one was unjustified? Please explain where I've gone wrong with the frames I pulled from the video. To me the pictures tell a clear story of a suspect resisting arrest and being subdued. Please educate me. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Your interpretation of the still frames is erroneous at best, wishful at worst. You'll never see anything other than what you want to see, that much is obvious. You're looking at blurry shadows and guessing at what is happening out of view. I am looking at what happens in plain view. The percentages don't matter here, at least not the way you want them to. Only 0.001% of all bank transactions result in a robbery. Therefore, we should just act like robberies never happen. That's your logic. "I'll just drink the punch from the portion of the bowl that doesn't have a turd floating in it." | ||
| Ourdee |
Guy on the bike was a turd. |
