| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
You can't categorize anyone that is non-Muslim as "Christian". It doesn't work that way. Stalin wasn't Christian. I would roughly estimate the 120 million figure could be cut to 40 million. YOUR ESTIMATE. Please provide something other that YOUR ESTIMATE. Muslims were involved in African slave trade from 650 to 1900. Again, this is 800 years before the first Portugese ship ever showed up. | ||
| Sifo |
And about half of the African wholesale slave trade was conducted by non-Muslims Where did you get this figure? Near as I can tell you just yanked it fresh out of your ass. | ||
| Moxnix |
Pastor Jones and his burning desires hit Al Jezzara cable news. Folks on the other side of the world demonstrated. Small world. One wonders if this gets ramped up on both sides, or subsides. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, I also doubt the numbers in the above chart. I'm pretty sure that the leftist alone, with their unholy faith, have murdered LOTS more than that. Not counting war between nations. Just killing your own folk. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM Over 70 million murdered by PRC alone. I'm pretty sure even this source is shy of reality. It has been well established that the Soviets lie about how many were purged in Europe. The Russian Federation hasn't really changed that policy. So, guys let's quit picking on the bad apples in the islamic world. Remember, "you can have peace, or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once" All Hail to the Sheepdogs. Thank you all who serve. | ||
| Sifo |
That 270 million figure is shrinking rapidly and I've only looked at Africans and Christians so far. I also found the link for the origin of the chart. The numbers are just crazy. They don't fit reality at all. It's obvious that the numbers were seriously cooked to make Muslims look really, really bad and the jihad bar on the chart really, really tall. So you claim the 270MM figure is way off and post a link that states...
Care to share with the class where the 270MM figure is off? You just aren't connecting any dots here at all. | ||
| Sifo |
Aesquire, No fair providing links that show actual numbers.  | ||
| Sifo |
So I've been trying to piece together what M2me is talking about. Looks like he's picking at the totals from here... http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/tears-of-jihad/ 120 million Africans 60 million Christians 80 million Hindus 10 million Buddhists He claims to have examined the totals for Africans and Christians at this point. Nothing was offered to refute the African numbers. I agree that the 7-12MM by Stalin should not be included, so knock the 60MM Christians down to ~50MM. Without even counting the last 2 categories that he hasn't examined yet the total killed by Islamic jihad is at ~170MM. That alone puts it way above any of the others. Let's just keep a total as verified by M2me 120 million Africans 80 million Hindus 10 million Buddhists ---------------- 260 million Total I for one thank Allah for being so peaceful! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, but Christians have killed at least twice that number. | ||
| Blake |
Over-achievers. | ||
| Aesquire |
Actually Ft, I'd contend that it's monothesists that kill the most. those convinced that there can be only one object of worship and no other. It gives them a focus that a nice polytheist can't match. Now of the monotheist cults, I'd bet cash that the followers of marx ( fascist-communist-progressive-greenie )and those offshoots like the Kim worship in N.Korea hold first place. Next is probably islam, with those pesky christians in third. But that's only a valid accounting if you include aggressive territorial war. Not counting the millions killed in WW1 & 2 by regular European style church goers, and only people murdered in the name of some "only one true faith" cult, the Christians still come in a far distant third. If I use the numbers from the Veda's the Hindu wars in the distant past might equal the Christians, but you have to accept direct divine intervention thousands of years ago, so I have no verifiable proof. Besides, that too was war between the Gods. It's not so much how many are killed in good old fashioned classical war. Not to say that doesn't suck. It's who is killed in the name of the purity, ideology, and preservation of the cult. Mostly the subjects of their own lands. Bear in mind the Christians had 600 years to kill each other before the new faith ( islam ) started up. But, the simple fact that there are more people to kill in the last 1000 years evens that out, otherwise I couldn't account for the Mao's preeminence in the mass murder sweepstakes. Before the industrial & agricultural revolutions, the planet couldn't support the numbers allowing for that much mass murder. That statistically takes the Hittites out of the running. I submit that arguing over who was more of a threat to his own people in the past is less important than who is a threat today. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I would like to know where this vast, Christian body count is. Best estimates place the TOTAL death count from the Crusades (both Christian and Muslim) at 1.5M. For all this blood lust, I can't quite figure out where the bodies are buried. I do agree, though, that Socialism/Communism is as much a religion as Christianity or Islam. As secular humanism, it worships man as the ultimate deity. I believe Islam is still the king of the hill when it comes to death dealing, but Marxism is still pretty young as a religion. Give it time and it will be the true king of death. | ||
| M2me |
You can't categorize anyone that is non-Muslim as "Christian". It doesn't work that way. Stalin wasn't Christian. I never categorized Stalin as Christian. I pointed out that the Christians killed by Stalin should not be categorized as deaths by jihad. YOUR ESTIMATE. Please provide something other that YOUR ESTIMATE. YOU posted the chart. This is a quote from the article that the chart was built from:
So it's acceptable to use rough estimates to build the chart but I can't use rough estimates from other sources? | ||
| M2me |
Where did you get this figure? Near as I can tell you just yanked it fresh out of your ass. I got it from the link that YOU POSTED! The about.com link has all kinds of facts and figures about the trans-Atlantic slave trade. | ||
| Blake |
Who is defending the Christians? Jakarta (AsiaNews) - Thousands of Muslim extremists attacked a Christian educational center in Bogor regency, West Java province, Indonesia. | ||
| M2me |
So I've been trying to piece together what M2me is talking about. Looks like he's picking at the totals from here... Ft_bstrd originally posted a chart with those figures and quotes from the Tears of Jihad article. You even re-posted the chart. Then you wonder what I'm talking about? You guys are the ones posting the damn chart, not me! Man, you guys are goofy! This is what I'm talking about: The Political Islam article (Tears of Jihad) is lying and exaggerating the numbers. This is a fact that can easily be proven. All you need to is read the about.com link that you posted and then read the Raphael Moore article on the history of Asia Minor, the very same article that Tears of Jihad cites. The Political Islam article is religious bigotry and hatred. This is the same thing that the Nazis did to the Jews. Jews were involved in banking, etc. in Germany and some did rip off and cheat Germans. But the Nazis exaggerated everything and kept ramping up the rhetoric until the elimination of Jews seemed reasonable. Islamic jihad has caused a lot of trouble and grief for millions of people. There is no question about that. But so have Christians, Jews, Nazis, Communists, Americans, etc. Don't cook the numbers so that it appears that Islamic jihad is the source of all evil in this world. That will only lead to bad decisions being made. | ||
| Blake |
A simple google experiment reveals truth: Google "muslims attack christian", 135,000 results. Google "Christians attack muslim", 6 results. | ||
| Sifo |
Where did you get this figure? Near as I can tell you just yanked it fresh out of your ass. I got it from the link that YOU POSTED! The about.com link has all kinds of facts and figures about the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Care to share the link and quote? Maybe a bit more on your math would be nice too. | ||
| Sifo |
The Political Islam article (Tears of Jihad) is lying and exaggerating the numbers. This is a fact that can easily be proven. Then prove it, please! You've shown a small discrepancy that I've acknowledged. It brought the total from 270MM down to 260MM. That's what, less than 4% difference. Wow, that's really cookin' the numbers! And that came from one author using a total from another author that contained a separate group that shouldn't have been included for these purposes. Not exactly clear proof of an agenda. It's more likely just being a bit sloppy. | ||
| Blake |
Don't cook the numbers so that it appears that Islamic jihad is the source of all evil in this world. Yet another despicable straw man. I would say, stop trying to excuse obvious evil by pointing to other evil. I have an idea John. How about we recognize, identify, repudiate, and confront as best as possible all evil in the world whenever and wherever we find it? Is there a problem with that? Stop excusing bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. That is a really idiotic rationale. There's not a thing we can do to change the past. Move on. See reality today. Study up on what history teaches about confronting the enemies of freedom and the usurpers of justice, the propagators of tyranny. Use that knowledge to formulate the best possible plan of action and confront as best we can threats to freedom and justice, aka "evil." Is there a problem with that? If the koran contains mandates that motivate numerous evil deeds today all around the world, then should we not recognize it, confront it, call it out and push to get something done about it? Is 1400 year old hate speech okay just because it is old or because it is in the core doctrinal book of islam? Why? When people are being slaughtered, oppressed and tyrannically ruled in the name of that hate speech and related tyrannical mandates, do we not need to call it out? Answer or go away. (Message edited by blake on September 12, 2010) | ||
| Sifo |
Great link Blake. It shouldn't get lost in the rest of the mess. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/indonesia-thousa nds-of-enraged-muslims-attack-christian-center-des troy-cars-burn-buildings.html
Explain that whole peace and tolerance thing to me again??? | ||
| Sifo |
As long as M2me likes the about.com link so much, I wonder if he read this part... http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/Islam RoleSlavery01.htm It describes how slavery was a part of Islamic conquest. This wouldn't be too disturbing to me other than the fact that we know that Islam is still heavily involved in the slave trades. This was already discussed previously in this thread. Islam only seems peaceful when it is in complete control by threat of death. Only then is the message controlled and you will not hear of the atrocities. | ||
| Sifo |
Another interesting thing you can do on Google. I just looked up food pantries in my area. You get a long list, most from various Christian churches, a few private. What seems to be missing are the food pantries from Islamic mosques. Go ahead and check out your area. Does Islam really do anything positive in the community? Is there anything similar to the Salvation Army from the Islamic community? Just wondering. It's one thing to look at the evil side of religions. It's another to look at the positive side. I know local Christian churches send missionaries to a variety of areas where they build schools, hospitals, etc. Sure they also preach the Bible, that's part of the package. Is there anything similar going on from the Islamic world? | ||
| M2me |
I would say, stop trying to excuse obvious evil by pointing to other evil. I am not trying to excuse any evil. I am trying to point out another evil that we must confront and that is lying about and exaggerating Islamic jihad. The Tears of Jihad article claims that Islamic jihad alone was responsible for the wholesale African slave trade. That is a lie. The article claims that Islamic jihad alone was responsible for the death of 50 million Orthodox Christians in Asia Minor. That is a lie. I am not trying to say that Islamic jihad has not and is still not responsible for deaths. I'm not saying that we shouldn't confront Islamic jihad. But we've got to be honest about it. Don't exaggerate it and lie about it. That will only lead to innocent people being harmed and is just as evil as Islamic jihad. | ||
| M2me |
As long as M2me likes the about.com link so much, I wonder if he read this part... Ugg! I have never disputed the fact that Muslims were involved in the African slave trade. I have disputed the fact that ONLY Muslims were involved in the slave trade. Look at the graph I posted yesterday. Look at the years between 1701-1800. Over 6 million slaves were shipped. What was the source of many of those slaves? Who was doing the wholesale trade? Sorry, but I'm not going to do the research for you. Just keep in mind that you can't use figures from 1482. 1482 does not fall between 1701-1800. 1482 was 250 years BEFORE the height of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. | ||
| Sifo |
M2me, I've acknowledged the discrepancy you pointed out. It makes about a 3.7% difference in the total. Hardly enough to change any conclusions. I've asked you to post the details of where you are coming up with your "adjustments" (links & quotes), you fail to provide anything. Who's not being honest about it? | ||
| Sifo |
Ugg! I have never disputed the fact that Muslims were involved in the African slave trade. I have disputed the fact that ONLY Muslims were involved in the slave trade. Look at the graph I posted yesterday. Look at the years between 1701-1800. Over 6 million slaves were shipped. What was the source of many of those slaves? Who was doing the wholesale trade? Sorry, but I'm not going to do the research for you. Just keep in mind that you can't use figures from 1482. 1482 does not fall between 1701-1800. 1482 was 250 years BEFORE the height of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. That link I provided (http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/Islam RoleSlavery01.htm) isn't limited to the early years of the Atlantic slave trade as was the earlier link when we were discussing the beginnings of the Atlantic slave trade. So to answer your question about where the slaves came from it seems from Islamic conquest. That's why I posted it in the first place. Not only did Islam continue the slave trade past 1482, but it continues in the present day. | ||
| Blake |
What evil are you not trying to excuse John? I dare you to name ten of the most heinous crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of islamist jihad in the past thirty years and the koranic verses and hadith used to justify them. If you are not trying to excuse those crimes, surely you are aware of them and are able to name them along with the relevant islamist propaganda and supporting koranic and hadith quotes that are used to justify them. If not, then you are indeed ignorant and seeking to excuse one evil by calling attention to another. | ||
| Blake |
I've not seen more exaggerations or outright falsehoods anywhere here than in John's posts. When confronted on them, he ignores. Go away despicable idiot. Get off my website. | ||
| M2me |
I've asked you to post the details of where you are coming up with your "adjustments" (links & quotes), you fail to provide anything. Do I have to do everything for you? Apparently you can't be bothered to read the links that you post. OK, I'll read it for you.  Trans-Atlantic Exports by Region Notice that Benin and West Central accounted for 60.5%. West Central includes the Kingdom of Kongo. Neither Benin or the Kingdom of Kongo were Muslim or had Muslim wholesale slave traders. The Kingdom of Kongo was actually Christian. Benin was "indigenous", neither Christian or Muslim.
Kongo in the 18th and 19th centuries Angola (also in West Central) is majority Christian today due to the influence of the Portuguese and Spanish during the slave trade. Christianity in Angola Northern Africa (the Gold Coast and north) were under Muslim influence, Benin and West Central were not and still aren't to this day. These areas accounted for 60.5% of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Many Kongo merchants became very wealthy in the wholesale slave trade and they were not Muslims. I did not include Biafra because I've been having a hard time getting any definite religious information about it. It's looks like some areas of Biafra were under Muslim influence and some were not. | ||
| Sifo |
I though we had already covered this. What is the meaning of wholesale. There's no argument that slaves were brought from the north to the Benin for export from there. That's been covered already. The problem is that you are mixing your statistics. Wholesale vs. Exports. Seriously this is a big problem you have to watch for when you start comparing sources of data. Are the data really the same thing. It seems in this case they are not based on descriptions of the data. This is why I asked you very early in this discussion "exactly" what you disagreed with in the statement about wholesale slave sales. EDIT: It's an important distinction because where a slave was exported from doesn't necessarily reflect where and by whom they were captured into slavery. (Message edited by SIFO on September 12, 2010) |
