| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Mark, Yesterday you claimed that you were defending muslims. You didn't defend Muslims so much as you attacked Christianity. If you want to defend Islam, you'll need to learn about it. Not sure anyone is attacking muslims themselves in general. I sure am not. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Have you read this book? Author, John L. Esposito is University Professor of Religion and International Affairs at Georgetown University and Founding Director of the Prince Alwaleed Bin-Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. He is the editor of The Oxford Encyclopedia of Modern Islam and The Oxford History of Islam, and author of Unholy War, What Everyone Needs to Know about Islam, and many other acclaimed works. Answer: No. Why would I read a book by an Islamist apologist who is funded by the Saudis and thus has a vested interest in their agenda? I prefer to read what is actually being preached in the mosques, what the islamists are actually saying amongst themselves and what the long very well-documented history of islamism teaches us. I prefer to read the accounts of folks who were born and raised under islamism and who were victims of its oppression and brutality. Have you read any such books or do you only choose those written by professors being paid by Wahabbi Islamists to do their bidding? Here's an excellent book by a Syrian doctor who emigrated to America. She speaks from personal experience and is not funded by any special interest group. | ||
| Blake |
Here's another excellent book by a woman who was born and raised in Lebanon. She experienced first hand what happens when the islamists gain critical mass in a nation. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Another glaring example of the ignorance that runs rampant about Christians and Christianity. If you'd like to call my upbringing of going to church every Sunday and being close friends with many people in my Church 'ignorance', feel free. Your religion may be more central to your life, but that doesn't mean you're the only valid sample in existence. I knew I'd get called out for that comment by someone. I should have added "with the same prolificacy". . In other words, I'd be willing to bet there are more casual Christians than there are casual Muslims. You didn't defend Muslims so much as you attacked Christianity. If you want to defend Islam, you'll need to learn about it. Not sure anyone is attacking muslims themselves in general. I sure am not. There were a lot of generalizations being thrown around and nobody seemed interested in separating Muslims from Islam. I don't know that I ever defended Islam - in fact, if you go back through the boards I think you'll see that I agree that Islam is likely the most destructive belief system in the world. What I'm merely defending is that not all Muslims are the hateful murdering psychopaths that we see hanging journalists from bridges on the TV. There are a lot of things my Pastor told me that I ignored, I'm sure this happens in Islam as well. (Message edited by xl1200r on September 10, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Sunni, Shia and AlQeda are as close to each other as are Protestants, Catholics and Branch Davidians. al qaeda are sunni islamists as are the taliban as are the Wahabbi islamists. I'd agree that the rift between Sunni and Shia in some nations is akin to that between the protestants and catholics in Ireland some years ago. I don't see an equivalent to al qaeda within the fringes of modern Christianity. One of the main tenets of Christianity is to treat others as you would be treated. Kinda tough to argue with credibility that you'd want your own head cut off. Islam was founded by muhammed, a warmongering raider, mass murderer, and misogynist who in addition to his other eleven wives married a six year old girl, consummating that marriage when she turned nine. Christianity was founded six hundred years earlier by the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth, a humble Jewish carpenter turned teacher, a philosopher and healer who preached love and respect for all, that we are to love our enemies, that we should treat others as we would like to be treated, that we turn the other cheek when slighted, that no man is without sin in the eyes of God. When Jesus was tortured, beaten, suffered and died in the most humiliating and excruciatingly brutal fashion (crucifixion) as an example of the greatness of God's love for humanity, what did he mandate, that his followers wage jihad against infidels? Or did he beseech God for forgiveness for those who so horribly unjustly tortured, humiliated and murdered him? Which man's life and words provide the basis for a religious faith that is tolerant and peaceful? Which man's life and words provide the basis for a religion that is violent and totalitarian seeking to destroy all others? (Message edited by blake on September 10, 2010) | ||
| Mcdusa1 |
I have not seen the media go on the attack like this since the attacks on Bush. The media did there best to make him look bad. The big news was he has a condo near the water, he has 2 SUV’s (he’s not green, he hates the environment) then they said he has a motorcycle (out law maybe a Buell.) That’s when it hit me. I knew I had seen him before. He passed me on a turn at the Dragons Tail. I remember seeing book falling of the luggage rack (I want one) on his tricked out S3 T. As I remember he is a cool guy. We sat around the camp fire at Deal Gap BS’in in about the G’s on the days ride. I should have known it was him, when we never had to hunt for fire wood for the fire. Every so often he tossed a book (Koran) into the fire. As I remember they burned pretty good except for the strange voices that came out of the flames now and then. | ||
| Mcdusa1 |
PS: Christian's (good) America is a Christian nation | ||
| Blake |
Mark, You invented a straw man. No one here ever asserted that "all Muslims are the hateful murdering psychopaths that we see hanging journalists from bridges on the TV." In contrary to your perception, we've been asserting the exact opposite, that most are not. I've asserted all along that the kind muslim folks are not the issue in the same exact 100% analagous way that the kind and thoughtful Germans were not the issue in nazi Germany. The issue then was naziism and nazis. The issue today is islamism and islamists; islamism is a fascist totalitarian militaristic ideology seeking world domination. Having lived and worked in the middle east, I can assure you that MANY muslims are not adherent to their faith as you seem to imagine. Out of approximately 100 muslims who I worked with in the Persian Gulf, I recall just a handful who adhered to the islamic prayer regimen. The vast majority were incredibly friendly and congenial, a number of them talked about driving from Pakistan across the border to the then USSR to drink and carry on. They also talked about how young boys were for pleasure, women were for having babies. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Blake, if it's all true and I misread (always a possibility), then I agree 100% with your above post. Not sure how I'm feeling about the last sentence, though, lol. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
Well I think just like Eve, Sarah (Abrahams wife) got all our butts in trouble way back when. Through an act of her own she had her husband sleep with her maidservant to satisfy his longing for a son. I can only imagine the hatred that could have grown in these two people (Hagar&Ishmael) after they were expelled into a brutal life in the desert. I believe the hatred of the blood line of Abraham started right there and haunts us to this day. I could be wrong,, I do know Ishmael's name means "struggle with his brother", Struggle!! Thats an understatement if I ever heard one! | ||
| Blake |
My good friend and derrick-man mentor, Mohammed, from S. Yemen.  (Message edited by blake on September 10, 2010) | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Here is a message I also got from watching the emammy on larry king, it's hard to explain but is lingering slightly in the back of my mind after watching the interview: Islam is growing and the only way to eliminate radical islam is to become a moderate muslim and join the fight. Infidels cannot fight radical islam with enough success, you must become a muslim and join the fight. Only then can we succeed. If they can convince people to join, and fight as a muslim, it could spread like a virus. Sure,... radical Islam could subside but as many said, it's what Islam wants...to conquer the world. Sounds like a master plan. (They Live) Where there many muslims in Soviet Union before it fell? I am sure there are many more now then there was before. | ||
| Blake |
Muslim Persecution of Christians, a long and terrible history, still happening today. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
I know the Anti-Christ is going to find plenty to cut peoples heads off,, give that a thought. | ||
| Blake |
Google "monkeys and pigs". | ||
| Sifo |
There are some things that are just hard for me to overlook. There is exactly ONE religion that has been involved in perpetual violence in various places around the world for my entire lifetime. That same religion has a long history of violence around the world prior to my lifetime. When that is combined with the many things that are in their Koran that speak to Jihad, world dominance, treating infidels as second class citizens, and killing those that will not submit it really becomes difficult to draw the conclusion that Islam doesn't have a problem with violence. The proof is there for anyone to see. All you have to do is open your eyes to the truth. So what does that say about those that claim Islam to be a religion of peace? I won't try to cast them all into the same generalization other than they are ignoring the facts that are before them. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
WOW... is this for real?? : Could you please tell me about monkeys. Are they humans who were turned into monkeys for disobeying Allahs commandments? if so which people were they and what did they do? http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/14085 | ||
| Xdigitalx |
The reasons for capital punishment in Islam (Message edited by xdigitalx on September 10, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
Women are revered in islam? | ||
| Blake |
Palestinian Christians plead for help against marauding muslims. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think it's relevant as many in Islam consider their religion to be central to their being, while that same sentiment is not found in the Christian faith. I understand this statement, but I do believe your viewpoint is heavily skewed by your own experiences. Many Christians "play church". It's not an indictment of Christianity but of individuals who aren't following Christ (or all of Christ's teachings). Christianity isn't the problem. It's the imperfect human being that's the problem. Human beings fail and falter and fall short. Even those who claim to be Christians. Christianity isn't about attaining perfection here on earth. Christianity isn't about the destination. It's about the journey: Not that I have become perfect yet; I have not yet won, but I am still running, trying to capture the prize for which Christ Jesus captured me. I can assure you my brothers, I am far from thinking that I have already won. All I can say is that I forget the past and I strain ahead for what is still to come; I am racing for the finish, for the prize to which God calls us upward to receive in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14 There is no perfection of the human condition this side of eternity. There is simply the race. Those who are "playing church" have either temporarily stopped running or never started the race. Legalistic religions are difficult and appear to have devout followers if all the rules and regulations are followed but are empty, hollow: 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Colossians 2:20-23 What is interesting in your viewpoint is the behavior of the 9/11 hijackers in the days leading up to 9/11. If you knew you were going to die tomorrow and you were going to meet God, would you be seeking to follow his commands and laws to the letter or would you be getting drunk with infidels in strip clubs getting lap dances? Many of those in Muslim countries MUST have Islam at the center of their life because it is as much a form of government and rule as it is a religion. I would be pretty devout to the rules and regulations of Islam if I knew that the penalty for ducking out of church was death. What is interesting is that Muslims in the US are not viewed as "devout" as Muslims in "Muslim Nations". They eschew the freedoms that women have in the US. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Ft_, once again, I agree with your post. It is true that my viewpoint is skewed by my own experience - that is a constant that I cannot change. The nice thing about experiences is you're always getting new ones to add to the pile. I don't believe everything in the Bible and I don't believe in the organized Church, but I do believe in what I understand the teachings of Christ to be and I try to live my live well, as a good person, and treating others as well as I can. While I haven't waited for marriage to have sex, I say please, thank you and hold the door even people seem rude in response. Your point re: Islam being "law" in Muslim nations is spot on and something I did not draw a conclusion to, I guess in a way forgetting that the rest of the world doesn't work like what I'm familiar with. Blake - I've been spending a bit of time on some of the websites you've posted links to (even before you posted them, at least in this thread). I guess my question at this point is why all of the Muslims who claim the violence and oppression is just the extremists and not typical of a Muslim don't do more to separate themselves from that? The Protestants did it from the Catholics, albeit with struggle and sacrifice. But I'd argue that the social situation relating to Islam is a much more dire one - distance yourself from "true" Muslims and risk attacks by them, or do nothing and risk eventual attacks from everyone else. If you don't speak out, how is anyone to tell the difference? I think an interesting question to ask Muslims in this country would be: "If a radical Islamic force were to occupy this nation, and the probability of a successful defeat was 50%, which side would you choose? What if it was 10%? What if it was 90%?" | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It is true that my viewpoint is skewed by my own experience - that is a constant that I cannot change. The nice thing about experiences is you're always getting new ones to add to the pile. We ALL view our world through the lens of our experiences. If I had been an alter boy molested by a priest, I would have a VERY negative view of God, Church, Religion, etc. (Not saying this is your story) I don't believe everything in the Bible and I don't believe in the organized Church, but I do believe in what I understand the teachings of Christ to be and I try to live my live well, as a good person, and treating others as well as I can. While I haven't waited for marriage to have sex, I say please, thank you and hold the door even people seem rude in response. Believe it or not, those truly seeking Christ are instructed to "work through your faith". If you believe everything in the bible without really reviewing it, studying it, rolling it over in your mind, you are not better than people who blindly follow anything. I struggle every day with what it means to be "Christian". Do I blow it? Absolutely! An you know what? So did some of the pillars of Christianity. I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. Romans 7:15 --Paul Peter, the "rock on which the church was built", denied Christ and was a foul mouthed, roughneck fisherman. The lineage of Christ and the Israelites is strewn with liars, and cheats, and adulterers, and murders. That is the real power of Christianity. It doesn't matter what your background. It doesn't matter what you've done.There is forgiveness and a fresh start. It's not a one time fresh start. It's a daily fresh start. Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. (Luke 9:23-24) Every day when my feet hit he floor, I have to kill the old me. Sometimes the old me is back before I'm done with my Cheerios and I have to kill him over and over. THIS is the facet of Christianity most people don't understand. They point to the failure of a Christian and say "look Christianity is bogus. That "Christian" failed. What a HYPOCRITE!". It's the redemption AFTER the fall that supplies the greatest power. It's understanding that Christ died exactly BECAUSE we are unable to be "good enough" on our own. | ||
| Methed |
Umm, what Jeremy said. | ||
| M2me |
I think an interesting question to ask Muslims in this country would be: "If a radical Islamic force were to occupy this nation, and the probability of a successful defeat was 50%, which side would you choose? What if it was 10%? What if it was 90%?" That question is the very definition of religious bigotry. All American citizens, including Muslims, are presumed innocent until proven guilty. No American citizen is required to prove their innocence. What is the probability of a radical Islamic force occupying this nation? Zero. Zip. Nada. I have absolutely no doubt about that. I have never understood why people want to give so much power to a handful of very weak thugs. Can radical Islamics hijack planes or plant IEDs and kill people? Sure, but we are vastly more powerful than that. The radical Islamics have no political, social, economic, or military power. Their only source of power is our fear and hatred of them. Our power comes from our Constitution, our democratic system, our system of law. Fear and hatred only serves to make us weaker and the terrorists stronger. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
That question is the very definition of religious bigotry. All American citizens, including Muslims, are presumed innocent until proven guilty. No American citizen is required to prove their innocence. What is the probability of a radical Islamic force occupying this nation? Zero. Zip. Nada. I have absolutely no doubt about that. I have never understood why people want to give so much power to a handful of very weak thugs. Can radical Islamics hijack planes or plant IEDs and kill people? Sure, but we are vastly more powerful than that. The radical Islamics have no political, social, economic, or military power. Their only source of power is our fear and hatred of them. Our power comes from our Constitution, our democratic system, our system of law. Fear and hatred only serves to make us weaker and the terrorists stronger. Ask Europe The President of the most powerful nation in the world was cowed this week by the THREAT of the burning of a book and the potential world outcry that act might create. That handful of weak thugs seem to have more power than you give them credit. Now, Ronnie Raygun understood the Islamic threat better than most. Gaddafi still pisses down his leg when it thunders. The Islamic Radicals will see this weeks result as nothing more than a sign of weakness and will use it to recruit new soldiers from all those "moderates" we keep hearing about. | ||
| Aesquire |
Where there many muslims in Soviet Union before it fell? I am sure there are many more now then there was before. Lots, and yes. In fact, IMO, the persecution of all faiths other than the Holy State in southern Soviet lands ( think Crudistan, Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc. ) is one of the reasons for the rise in violent Jihad. I'd also blame the policies of Carter, who's defeatism fueled the Soviet surge, worldwide. The Ayatollah's Islamic revolution in Iran, while perhaps not all his fault, ( the Envoy reported the Ayatollah was a "saint"..... I have little respect for the State dept, btw ) was blessed by Carter to end the human rights problems the Shah had dragging his country from medieval days into the 20th century. Likewise today the Saudi princes hold onto their heads only by kowtowing to the mullahs of the wahabist sect, who control the young, unemployed, and frustrated men. (It's really hard to get laid when you have no job, no father wants his daughter to date, much less marry a bum, etc. It's even more frightening in China, where the one child policy has led to way too many men.} No one thinks all muslims are bad. But some are, as certain as the sky is blue. The question that may not be asked, is what is wrong with this faith that it breeds so much murder? To ask it is to be condemned. That's the bottom line. I can criticize Christianity all day long, until people just get sick of my crap. There are sects that have in recent times ( last 30 years ) had serious problems with corruption in one form or another. Some of it hypocritical sexual deviancy caused by the sex rules of the sect itself IMO. Cover ups of the corruption, while understandable, ( gotta protect the Church ) have lost some sects a lot of respect. And, there are always the screwballs like the fag-o-phobic jerks. But all of that is condemned by the majority of not only churches, but also believers in Christ's message. That's not true in Islam, where those who are appalled by the "radical's" violence and intolerance fear for their lives. And, I'm not Christian, I just don't like it when people lie and attack someone unfairly. That violates MY faith. | ||
| Aesquire |
M2me, you expect an amphibious assault at Daytona Beach, then an armored campaign ending with D.C. in ruins and the President surrendering?  No, just the erosion of the Constitution, the liberties of real men, and the spread of theocratic law, oppression of women, and you paying a tax to be allowed to live. Not this week. Slow, careful, inexorable. You may even claim you won't accept Sharia law. Tell that to the police when you are arrested, and brought before a Priest to be corrected in your errors. Not this week. Wait a bit. I repeat. 1. The imam & the pastor jerks both have a right under U.S. law to build their screw you mosque, & burn a pile of books. ( though the book burning is an abomination in the eyes of the greenies who follow the Prophet Gore ) 2. everyone more mature than 14 yrs old agrees both jerks are rude to do so. So far so good, right? Everyone agrees on 1 & 2???? I do note one of the jerks isn't telling me that people will be killed if he changes his mind. The other is. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Good stuff here, BUT, my latest moto mag showed up in the mail today, I'm off to read something uplifting  | ||
| Moxnix |
I have never understood why people want to give so much power to a handful of very weak thugs. Can radical Islamics hijack planes or plant IEDs and kill people? Sure, but we are vastly more powerful than that. Lets wave a copy of our democracy's Constitution at them and what that gets us. WWJD? If Jesus returned tomorrow would He burn a Koran? Yeah, and probably a whole lot of Bibles, too, based on the version and text modifications from original intent over the last 40 years. (2 Peter 3:10) (Message edited by moxnix on September 10, 2010) |
