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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No Sifo. I have not run from the "conversation". I have, however, grown tired of the same old crap. You guys have not shown anything new here that hasn't been done in the past and failed. if tax cuts are the answer, why did Bush have an end date attached to them? I love ftbstrds "outsourcing isn't a bad thing" (is that why he's working at a HD dealer now, or is that by choice?) Court, you must be living with blinders on man. before reagan, how man people lived on credit? and now? sifo. I love your"do as I sa,y, not as I do" attitude man! way to sit on your @ss all summer long, leaching of the system ! funny you seem to think thats okay. maybe Odie can hook you up. still interested in knowing if you think the former Buell employees are lazy if they haven't yet found a job. continue on with your discussion guys. I gotta get back to work
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Court
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>>Court, you must be living with blinders on man.

I've managed to do it through 42 years of union membership, a Big 8 gymnastics scholarship, getting a degree in Economics, a Bachelor of Business Administration, being shot 3 times, 2 years with The White House traveling with the President and Vice President, a tour of duty with the United States Marine Corps, driving over the road trucks, 3 college degrees, circling the United States on a motorcycle, countless miles of test riding, graduating from an Ivy League institution, lots of speeches to nice folks like the NFL Players Association and becoming a Professor at an Ivy League school . . . and running a successful business for years building power plants and cross country transmission lines that have won me tons of awards.

Blinders? . . . yeah, perhaps . . . but no complaints on my part.

I'm basically left doing only construction, playing some guitar and enjoying a Granddaughter.

I'll keep the blinders.

We all form our views and opinions colored by our experiences.

Thanks
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Court
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

By the way . . . wait and see what happens if they raise my taxes.

I love working right now . . . I love my job. But if taxes go up . . my new name is RETIRED.

I worked for years because I HAD to . . . I'm doing it for no reason but fun now.

They raise taxes I can assure you the funds available to fund stimulus programs will decrease by the amount I'm paying in taxes annually.
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Spike
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

if tax cuts are the answer, why did Bush have an end date attached to them?





Keith Hennessey's answer:

quote:

In 2001 I was Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott’s tax policy staffer and was deeply involved in the procedure and tactics of the 2010 sunset date. Dr. Krugman suggests that we Republicans “used” the 2010 sunset date “to disguise” their revenue effect. He has his facts wrong. We wanted the tax cuts to be permanent. Since we were using reconciliation with a 10-year budget window, had we extended the tax cuts even for “that last year [2011],” we would have given 41 Senate Democrats the ability to kill the bill on a Byrd Rule point of order. We ended the tax cuts after 2010 because we had to, not because we saw some rhetorical advantage to doing so.




His full explanation of the "Bush" tax cuts: http://keithhennessey.com/2010/08/23/response-to-p k/
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Reindog
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Spike: thanks for the additional info. However, the expiration of the Bush tax cuts has already been satisfactorily explained in this very thread.




(Message edited by reindog on August 26, 2010)
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

no need to edit your post dog. I'm used to the lame attempts at insults from this right wing forum the badweb has now become.
Good luck to you all.
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Doug_s
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

spike, you said:

"Did you actually read that interview? "

ya, i did. but, i read the entire article. i didn't cherry pick. how about you? didja see what he said was really wrong w/barack's plan? this:

Mr. STOCKMAN: "But in the end of the day, I would say Obama is really wrong when he says, I'll extend the Bush tax cuts except for the top, you know, 2 percent - above 250,000."

RAZ: In other words, you're saying he has to not just end the tax cut for the top 2 percent or 1 percent of Americans, but the middle-class, the so-called middle-class tax cuts as well.

Mr. STOCKMAN: "Absolutely. The tax - the Bush tax cuts costs $300 billion a year: 100 billion to the top 2 percent, 200 billion to the middle-class. So I ask the White House, why is a $175,000-a-year family going to be given a tax break that we can't afford - a large tax reduction, tens of thousands of dollars a year? To me, it makes no sense."


doug s.
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Reindog
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rocco,

Badweb is pretty much the same it has always been: mostly right of center Conservatives with a healthy portion of Liberals and a few Left and Right wing extremists sprinkled in. No need to go away because you are a good guy.

Badweb tends towards Conservatism because there are a lot of military and ex-military plus people who have unfortunately, zoomed past their twenties and maybe their thirties and ......This is not to say all the Badwebbers in the previous run-on sentence are Conservative but they tend to be.

Tom.
Teamsters Local 278 member in good standing.

(Message edited by reindog on August 26, 2010)
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Johnnymceldoo
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Iam 33 and formed alot of my opinions by age 17 despite the overwhelming differing veiwpoints of my peers who ate up everything their professors and rage against machine told them. Talk about assimilation and conformity.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I always enjoy, as a conservative, hearing the considered opinions of folks who I do not agree with.

I rely on Badweb and my fellow Columbia University faculty (perhaps the most liberal of liberal places and home to names like Barack and Rahm) for varying opinions.

Court
3rd Generation member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers since 1968.
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Sifo
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No Sifo. I have not run from the "conversation". I have, however, grown tired of the same old crap. You guys have not shown anything new here that hasn't been done in the past and failed. if tax cuts are the answer, why did Bush have an end date attached to them? I love ftbstrds "outsourcing isn't a bad thing" (is that why he's working at a HD dealer now, or is that by choice?) Court, you must be living with blinders on man. before reagan, how man people lived on credit? and now? sifo. I love your"do as I sa,y, not as I do" attitude man! way to sit on your @ss all summer long, leaching of the system ! funny you seem to think thats okay. maybe Odie can hook you up. still interested in knowing if you think the former Buell employees are lazy if they haven't yet found a job. continue on with your discussion guys. I gotta get back to work

Rocket, the expiration on the tax cuts was answered days ago. Still waiting for your response. That's why I was wondering if you bailed again.

Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 06:07 pm:

Why did GWB and the Republican party chose to end the cuts a couple months ago? That was the date they picked to end them? So really Obama isn't raising taxes as claimed, he's allowing the preset date that was chosen by the Conservatives, to lapse?

Rocket about the only thing I didn't see addressed in a quick skim of what I missed while at work was why the Republicans chose to end them on a future date. It wasn't a couple of months ago either, I'm quite sure it's at the end of this year. Here's your answer though... That wasn't the choice of the Republicans at all. It was the choice of the Democrats who held Congress at the time. That was one of the compromises that the Republicans had to make to get the tax cuts established.

It's a shame that you are against a solution that has been tried and proven. There was a time when even Democrats understood how tax cuts stimulate the economy and provide higher tax revenues. Unfortunately since the time of JFK the Democrats have simply gone the way of tax & spend. That's proven to dig you into a hole.


And when have I said that people should do as I do. I provided myself as an example of someone who has simply followed government incentives. You certainly have stated your opposition to the Bush tax cuts. Did you pay extra to not take advantage of them? You DO pay taxes, don't you? If you do then you got a tax cut all these years. Shame on you.

Part of my decision on taking the summers off is that many of the people I work with need the work much more than I do. My boss loves the work I do for them and would love to have me for the summer too. All I have to do is ask. Someone is getting the summer off though. I figured it might as well be me as I enjoy the time in between may chosen carrier and total retirement.
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Buellkowski
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Progressive or conservative, I hold pragmatism in higher regard than dogmatism.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>I hold pragmatism in higher regard than dogmatism.

Cool.

You've got to be reeling after this week . . . .

  • Unemployment at record levels
  • Dow drops below 10,000 again
  • New housing starts lowest in recorded history
  • Sales of existing homes at lowest level in 15 years
  • S&P announces it is considering downgrading U.S. Treasury debt obligations


Go get a drink . . .it's gonna get good if they downgrade the bonds. This "Hope and Change" isn't as fun as some folks thought it would be.

Likely didn't help to have General Petraeus contradict the Bog O this week either. Seems the big guy hasn't made much of an impression on the forces.
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Johnnymceldoo
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This must be a dream because after the 2008 obama victory the media and hollywood politcal experts were gunho about change. Too bad it turned out to be a big turd topped with whipped cream. Rocket its too bad all of your unwavering support doesn't get you a lavish 5th vacation this year. Your a subject just like us. Watching chris matthews today almost made me cry a little for you.

Boo hoo
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Buellkowski
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Go get a drink . . .it's gonna get good if they downgrade the bonds.

Of course that would be bad news, but I don't read the doom & gloom you're insinuating above. It sounds like a downgrade would only happen if Congress were to do nothing.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100825-71620 5.html

From the article: "The Obama administration has pledged to halve the budget deficit by 2013 and to stabilize the U.S. public debt at 70% of gross domestic product by 2015. The expected proposals by the president's bipartisan commission will help set a road map for how the goal may be reached. The U.S. economic outlook isn't as grim as some analysts have warned, Chambers said. A slowing in growth there is to be expected as past fiscal stimulus wears off but a double-dip recession in the U.S. is unlikely, he said."

You'll get no argument from me that we cannot continue to endure record-high deficits. I don't believe the President would argue with you, either. Write your congressperson and let them know you support deficit reduction.
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Odie
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What, pray tell, is unfortunate about being military or ex-military and past their thirties?????
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Reindog
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

What, pray tell, is unfortunate about being military or ex-military and past their thirties?????



Hey Odie,
Reread my post. Nothing but GOOD in being military or ex-military. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

'Bout the getting older thing: it's OK I guess, but I was ruing how fast it seems to happen.

Badwebbers rock!
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Bikertrash05
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 01:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"From the article: "The Obama administration has pledged to halve the budget deficit by 2013 and to stabilize the U.S. public debt at 70% of gross domestic product by 2015."

Pretty optimistic, eh?

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Cityxslicker
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 03:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

guns, bullets, reloads, gas, gold, food.
No need to remake mad maxx, we will be living it soon enough.
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Blake
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Cool! I'm on good terms with the owners of the thunderdome.
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Buellerandy
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I can't believe their actually making another sequel...
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Spike
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

ya, i did. but, i read the entire article. i didn't cherry pick. how about you? didja see what he said was really wrong w/barack's plan? this:



Not cherry picking, summarizing. You posted the link as if it was a refutation of supply side economics and it supported the current moves of the left. I was attempting to refute that without pasting the entire article here.

Apparently you want to cherry pick the article to make it say that the only thing wrong with Obama's plan is that it only ends the tax cuts for the top 2%.

Let's walk through what Stockman actually said:

quote:

Mr. STOCKMAN: The military budget got out of control, and the tax cuts went to special interests as much as they did to the broad public.

RAZ: And he noticed a problem. The government wasn't collecting enough money to cover its costs, and he started telling that to Reagan.



Spending got out of control, tax cuts went to the wrong places. Deficits started to rise. Note that he does not say that tax cuts were bad for growth or that spending was good.


quote:

So in 1985, Stockman left. Now these days, he's still a conservative and still a Republican, but he doesn't think his party is taking a responsible position on taxes any longer.



Stockman still considers himself a Republican, but doesn't like the fiscal position of the GOP. Does that sound familiar? Have you heard anyone else say that before?


quote:

So we're spending $3.8 trillion in defense, non-defense, entitlements, everything else, and we're taking in only 2.2 trillion. So we got a massive gap. You have to pay your bills; you can't keep borrowing from the rest of the world at that magnitude, year after year after year. So in light of all of those facts, I say we can't afford the Bush tax cuts.



Stockman says that spending is the problem and that the deficit is reason that we can't afford tax cuts. He does not say that tax cuts do not cause growth. All of our big government spending has caught up to us and forces us to raise taxes to pay the bills.


quote:

RAZ: Now, I think many people would be surprised to hear Ronald Reagan's former budget director make this argument. I mean, what happened to the idea you once pushed, that tax cuts ultimately stimulate the economy?

Mr. STOCKMAN: I think that's true. But we're in a much different world today than we were in the early 1980s. We have had a spree of debt building for the last 30 years, both in the public and in the private sector. So in that environment, the highest priority is solvency now, not incentives for growth.



Stockman restates his position- tax cuts stimulate the economy. Again, he is not saying that supply-side theory is wrong. He is explicitly stating that debt is the problem and we must focus on solvency at the expense of economic growth.


quote:

RAZ: You seem to suggest that many of our economic troubles are the result of Republican economic policies over the past few decades. You are a Republican. You are a conservative. Why do you think Republicans are largely to blame?

Mr. STOCKMAN: Because the Republicans abandoned their old-time fiscal religion in favor of two theories, which I think are now proving to be both wrong and highly counterproductive and damaging.

One was monetarism, which said let the dollar float on the international markets. Let 12 men and women at the Fed decide whether to raise or lower interest rates, and use the Fed to try to run this massive economy. What they've done instead is run the printing press; they've flooded the world with dollars. The whole monetarist policy has been a mistake.

The second thing was the perversion of supply side. Yes, there was a good idea that in certain circumstances, lower tax rates will encourage economic activity and savings. But when you make it a religion, when you make it a catechism and you say you cut taxes no matter what the circumstance, what the season, what the condition, then I think the whole idea has been perverted.

By getting off track over the last 30 years, the Republican Party has basically given up its historic view that the key thing was financial discipline, financial responsibility, and that we had to live within our means. Today, we have two free lunch parties and as a result, we're borrowing ourselves into grave danger with each passing month and year.



Stockman says that the problem with Republicans is that they have abandoned their 'fiscal religion' and have resorted to printing money and perverting supply-side economics. He does not say that supply-side is wrong, only that we have perverted it. He says we have borrowed too much and now have two 'free lunch' parties. As much as he dislikes recent Republican policies, he doesn't seem to consider the Democrats to be any better.


quote:

And I blame Paulson on it. I blame the Bush White House. They basically sold out the birthright of the Republican Party when they bailed out Wall Street unnecessarily, in a state of complete panic in September 2008. That's really, at the end of the day, one of the greatest misfortunes in fiscal governance since the Reagan revolution tried to straighten things out beginning in 1980.



Again, Stockman is against the actions of the Republican party, not the fundamentals of conservatism. He goes as far as calling the bailouts a selling out of the birthrights of the Republicans. This guy is clearly not in support of government stimulus. He is not on your side.


quote:

RAZ: Do you hold President Obama and his economic policies responsible for some of this growing deficit?

Mr. STOCKMAN: Absolutely. The only thing worse than the Republican leadership position is that of the White House. I don't know how they think they're helping the economy by every month, coming up with a new plan to borrow tens of billions more, drive us deeper into debt. Never in history has anyone said that for very long, you can sustain a circumstance where the debt is growing at twice the rate of the economy.

So I think the White House with the stimulus is totally wrong. A lot of it has been wasted. Why did they put all that money in the automobile industry? There's far too much capacity already. Why did they waste the money on the housing credit? Why are they continuing to try to pump money into state and local governments? I understand there's severe budget pressure there, but the federal government is in deeper debt than the state and local governments.



This is the part I have previously quoted, but I'm posting it here again so that you can see it in context and see that it fits perfectly with what I said. This is not cherry picking. For all that Stockman has said against the actions of the Republicans over the last 30 years, he considers the actions of the current administration to be worse. This guy does not support stimulus spending, massive government growth, and endless debt. He is not on your side. Quote him at your own risk.


quote:

RAZ: I wonder, David Stockman, where is your political home these days? I mean, where does somebody like you go?

Mr. STOCKMAN: Well, I don't know. I think I'm in the unwashed middle, let's say, with more and more of the American people. And one of these days, I think the public is going to speak in no uncertain terms - that we've had enough of this crony capitalism, and that we're going to have to now clean things up.

At some point, we're going to either be forced to do it by the global bond and currency markets, or the American people are going to wake up and demand it through an election that really cleans house in terms of both parties and the irresponsible behavior that each of them engages in today.



Here's where Stockman really drives it home. He says Americans are tired of 'crony capitalism'. Note that he does not say they're tired of supply-side economics or capitalism in general. He says that we'll have to clean this up and that the people might demand it through an election that cleans house on both parties. Again I ask- does this sound familiar? Have you heard of anyone (maybe gathering in groups at rallies?) stating that they're tired of this massive spending and endless debt? Does Stockman really sound like he's in support of the actions of the Democrats?
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Cyclonedon
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

sorry to hijack this tread with this information but

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/08/kansas- city-harley-davidson-still-talking-of-moving.html? utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign =Feed%3A+ChicagoBreakingNews+%28Chicago+Breaking+N ews%29
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Steveford
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You've got some nerve hijacking this thread with something that's actually about Harley Davidson moving.
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the American Communist party? That is the question...
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Court
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>>Bob Klein said today a number of alternate sites remain on the table. He declined to say which other sites, or how many, are being considered.

Bob may have declined but pissed off HD execs are not begin so cautious with words . . . . .

HD is currently having record profits . . . but little of it is due to sales of motorcycles. They are adding IT type jobs as a way of eliminating line jobs. They have mentioned cutting something like a couple thousand more jobs.

Nice article yesterday:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/08/24/t hese-are-the-10-most-hated-stocks-in-the-automoti. aspx?source=isesitlnk0000001&mrr=1.00,

These Are the 10 Most Hated Stocks in the Automotive Industry

And one that kind of explains why some of the larger firms are making record profits, amassing unprecedented levels of cash but not about to hire . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/26/business/economy /26earnings.html?_r=1&hp
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Johnnymceldoo
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe we can build more roads and stuff next year. That's a brazillion jobs saved or created.
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Gregtonn
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 12:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Badweb tends towards Conservatism because there are a lot of..." motorcyclists here.

Motorcyclists tend to be more self reliant than the average liberal.

G
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Badweb tends towards Conservatism because there are a lot of..." motorcyclists here.

Motorcyclists tend to be more self reliant than the average liberal.

G



Go visit Advrider.com. Lefty through and through.
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Bikertrash05
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 01:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't want to hijack this thread and talk about the stereotypes of different motorcyclists...
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Cyclonedon
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Go visit Advrider.com. Lefty through and through.

I've been spending more time reading over there and I haven't seen any political crap at all! They stick to motorcycles and rides. Very good reading.
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