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Hardcorps
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 12:29 pm: | 
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The one thing that always kills me about threads about police here is the over generalizations about police.
This is so similar to all the over generalizations about sport bike riders. Every one here would jump all over some one that called their Buell a crotch rocket.
I just sit back and laugh, every one here is so quick to judge, and so quick to get pissed off when they are the ones being judged. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 04:43 pm: |
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>>> Next time you speed, do you want to be murdered?
A more asinine question I've not seen.
1. The victim did more than just speed; he attempted to evade arrest. That is no misdemeanor.
2. The pursuing officer most likely did not intend to kill the perp; that then is not "murder." |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 04:52 pm: |
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3. Other than those seeking death, who for any reason during any act would "want" to be murdered?
If you evade arrest you should expect to be chased and possibly harmed during apprehension. How idiotic to let criminals go on their way if they will just drive fast to escape. In congested areas where, just like for the use of firearms, the public would be significantly endangered, hold off. Otherwise, get the bad guy.
Blame the bad guys. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 06:35 pm: |
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According to the details available, the LEO could be charged with Vehicular Manslaughter. By ignoring the order to break off the pursuit, there may be additional liability such as Criminal Negligence.
Bad situation no matter how you look at it. |
Gwb
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 06:59 pm: |
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Blake, you ignorant slut 
You mentioned "congested areas": The cop was ORDERED not to chase.
Suppose the cop had killed an innocent person. Suppose he'd crashed into a family's car?
That is exactly why cops are ordered NOT to chase.
What might happen next time this cowboy-cop is ordered not to chase but does so anyway? Do you want cops like that in your town, where your family lives? |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 08:57 pm: |
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2. The pursuing officer most likely did not intend to kill the perp; that then is not "murder."
Just because you dont intend to kill someone but do doesnt mean you didnt commit murder. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:10 pm: |
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Just because you dont intend to kill someone but do doesnt mean you didnt commit murder.
Actually that's exactly what it means.
You mentioned "congested areas": The cop was ORDERED not to chase.
Suppose the cop had killed an innocent person. Suppose he'd crashed into a family's car?
That is exactly why cops are ordered NOT to chase.
What might happen next time this cowboy-cop is ordered not to chase but does so anyway? Do you want cops like that in your town, where your family lives?
While the order to drop the pursuit will certainly play heavily, there's a lot to be said for the judgement of the boots on the ground. It is very difficult to make good judgements from behind a desk vs. a well trained individual on the scene. Same reason the military still has people on the ground to help with targeting from both manned and unmanned aircraft. The fact is that in this particular instance an innocent wasn't involved. The cop's judgement in this case worked out as he called it from the field. |
Malott442
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:12 pm: |
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1. The victim did more than just speed; he attempted to evade arrest. That is no misdemeanor.
2. The pursuing officer most likely did not intend to kill the perp; that then is not "murder."
Hate to argue with you Blake, but in a lot of states it is no felony to flee or evade.
And in many states there is a limit to a pursuit. "Cowboy techniques" are not only frowned on, they are illegal in many states, and carry heavy repercussions.
Um. Evading is a misdemeanor here. Aggravated evading or peripheral charges are a felony.....
(a) Any driver of a motor vehicle who willfully fails or refuses to bring his vehicle to a stop, or who otherwise flees or attempts to elude a pursuing police vehicle, when given a visual or audible signal to bring the vehicle to a stop, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. The signal given by the police officer may be by hand, voice, emergency light or siren.
(b) Every person convicted of fleeing or attempting to elude a police officer shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than 30 days nor more than six months or by a fine of not less than $100.00 nor more than $500.00, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
I'm not saying the motorcyclist was innocent. I am saying that this LEO needs to go to prison for manslaughter, if not then he needs removed permanently from the force. His decision was wrong. Plain and simple. |
Malott442
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:16 pm: |
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And BTW, I'm pretty insulted by your statement. Surely you've seen statements that were more foolish appearing than mine.
I believe you delivered a subtle hyperbole without checking your facts and looking at the big picture.
Misdemeanor: Includes writing bad checks, petty theft, cussing in certain states.
Murder: He knew that by forcing a motorcycle into a crash he would cause harm... under direct orders to cease he persisted. That is pre-meditated and willful death... and though the charge won't stick. That cop is a killer. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:22 pm: |
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I'm not saying the motorcyclist was innocent. I am saying that this LEO needs to go to prison for manslaughter, if not then he needs removed permanently from the force. His decision was wrong. Plain and simple.
I think you are probably correct in the argument that the cop's decision was wrong, barring any information relating to training that might allow for continuing the pursuit under these circumstances. It's difficult to say what's what until all aspects have been considered. |
Malott442
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 09:51 pm: |
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I think you are probably correct in the argument that the cop's decision was wrong, barring any information relating to training that might allow for continuing the pursuit under these circumstances. It's difficult to say what's what until all aspects have been considered.
Absolutely |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 12:45 am: |
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I was not speaking to the specific incident, only in general, thus the acknowledgement that where public safety is at significant risk, cease the chase.
Otherwise, get the badguys. Don't want to end up in the ditch, stop as required. Pretty simple. I have little tolerance for outlaw behavior. |
Jerzydevil
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 02:13 am: |
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According to investigators Officer Timothy Beall witnessed the motorcyclist and another vehicle speeding at Northern Parkway and Interstate 83 and proceeded to follow the motorcyclist.
So why did he follow the bike and not the other vehicle?? That is the first question. Maybe a personal problem with bikes?? |
Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 11:12 am: |
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The police must be held to a higher standard.
The badge makes them more responsible than us as it applies to following the rules.
However, many officers take this type of response personally, and are incensed at the apparent snub of authority.
This guy was not buggering children or flogging grannies, he was hot-dogging and should not have had to pay the ultimate price at the hands of a responsible law officer.
Solution: take away his badge and make him one of us, the little people who are susceptible to demi-gods of authority.
There are too many examples of police officers going way to far beyond there place in dealing with the public. |
Blue_pipe
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 05:00 pm: |
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It's unfortunate this had to happen.I'm pretty sure the officer had no idea the person he was chasing was going to be dead in the end. In my town the saying goes "you can not out run the radio" |
Gwb
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 07:19 pm: |
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This yahoo-cop ignored his superior, a superior legally required and deemed better able to make such decisions.
This arrogant cowboy-cop took the law into his own hands: He decided to disobey direct orders, which resulted in another person's death.
This makes it a criminal act, plain and simple. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 08:38 pm: |
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If he indeed received and understood the order to cease the chase, the cop was likely wrong. When ALL the facts are known his guilt will be duly adjudicated. No one here knows the details. It's a shame that some are all too eager to demonize the LEO and excuse the outlaw.
Perp who tried to run was absolutely wrong, an outlaw, period. There is risk in choosing such behavior.
I'm MUCH more outraged when innocent people are killed, crippled, or maimed by drunk drivers.
Some here harbor a clear animosity towards law enforcement personnel in general. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 08:55 pm: |
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This yahoo-cop ignored his superior, a superior legally required and deemed better able to make such decisions.
I'm not sure he disobeyed a superior officer. The article says commander, this could very well be a dispatcher that isn't of higher rank. I would be surprised if high ranking officers were actually manning the dispatch radio, but they are probably not far away. The article is pretty non-specific though. There's still a boat load of unknown facts. |
Reducati
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 10:48 pm: |
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Some here harbor a clear animosity towards law enforcement personnel in general |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2010 - 12:40 am: |
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"It's a shame that some are all too eager to demonize the LEO and excuse the outlaw."
That pretty much covers it for me. Though I believe Blake also said a life and a carrier both lost, and I think that's quite probably true.
Sorry I checked out of the discussion for a minute.
Doug, thank you for providing those figures, I was wrong on that point then, and I apologize for perpetuating false information. The wet road figures were interesting, on a side discussion, perhaps that's due to just tromping the pedal and letting the computer manage the stopping entirely?
Uly, thank you.
Mallot, thanks for the quote on your state law, so you can run in your state and commit no more than a misd. if it goes off cleanly (that is, barring a bad single vehicle crash, hitting possible soccer van, or getting yourself run down by a seemingly overzealous LEO).
Can a board member from MA advise us on the local laws please?
Someone else asked why the biker was chased, another good question. There's a lot of information missing, as is frequently the case, and the details are what make all the difference. I can think of a great number of reasons to pursue the bike. Or the car. Use your imagination there are endless possibilities.
I think for the most part this has been a reasonable discussion, though why some resort to name calling is beyond me. |
Doug_s
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2010 - 08:00 am: |
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i did some searching on the web for more info about this. it seems the suspect and the other car may have been racing. the suspect was about 300 lbs, a new biker (since spring) and was riding a suzuki gsx 600.
http://www.explorebaltimorecounty.com/news/107669/ cockeysville-motorcyclist-dies-accident-involving- city-police-officer/
http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/region/baltimore_ city/deadly-police-pursuit-pits-department-against -officer
http://mobile.baltimoresun.com/wap/news/text.jsp?s id=297&nid=17079544&cid=17082&scid=1191&ith=1&titl e=Baltimore+Co.
doug s. |
Ulyranger
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2010 - 11:53 am: |
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Doug, yes, you are correct the officer should have broken off the pursuit. Hindsight is wonderful for us arm chair quarterbacks. Either way, regardless of what happened after pursuit was initiated it in no way clears the offender of his guilt. In other words, the biker was wrong too. Even if he DA decides there isn't sufficient evidence of a crime on the officer's part, he (officer) will likely be subject to a wrongful death civil suit. Pending proper investigation of the events.
In light of a recent case in NY, I'd highly recommend avoiding this behavior there. Similar situation, except it was in the country. Trooper pursues a bike who passed him in excess of 100mph. Pursuit goes into a small hamlet, Trooper looses control of the patrol vehicle, impacts a tree and dies as a result. The moron biker later brags about the evasion and ends up convicted of manslaughter.
Was the Trooper correct in his actions? The court said he did have a duty to act on the crime in progress and his death was a direct result. It was also realized after a lengthy investigation that he should have ended the pursuit after loosing contact with the motorcycle and entering a residential area. This in no way absolved the violator (motorcyclist) of criminal liability on his part for initiating the series of events that lead to the outcome......
All of this just stupid disregard of everyone else's safety on the highways. You want to speed or race in traffic, be prepared to stop and pay the consequences. Running/evading is just selfish stupidity and criminal. LE needs to keep their training up to date, evaluate their pursuit policies and realize that sometimes you're just going to have to let them go. Most major LE agencies already realize this and train that way. End the pursuit early or get on the radio and draw in the net. Of course depending on the level of the threat to the public (i.e. evaluating the threat of a murderer vs. a VTL violator). If you break training and policy as a pursuing officer, any protection, defense is out the window for your actions.
Again, way to little information available to make definitive conclusions here.......
(Message edited by ulyranger on August 02, 2010)
(Message edited by ulyranger on August 02, 2010) |
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